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jim6225

Lawsuit over Stairway to Heaven

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This lawsuit will go nowhere at all.

Stairway To Nowhere.

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Its funny, 9 pages or speculation and some out right blame was posted but when I post definitive proof that Stairway was not stolen only two people bother to comment. Where are all those people who were sure it was plagiarized now!?

I don't know, I figured there would be many more people here who would be interested in seeing proof positive of Stairways authenticity.

Edited by juxtiphi

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Its funny, 9 pages or speculation and some out right blame was posted but when I post definitive proof that Stairway was not stolen only two people bother to comment. Where are all those people who were sure it was plagiarized now!?

I don't know, I figured there would be many more people here who would be interested in seeing proof positive of Stairways authenticity.

Never any doubt with Stairway. Sounds very dissimilar to the plodding Taurus. I can't believe the accusation has the legs to amount to anything. Looking forward to the release as planned of IV - with no delay due to this silliness.

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Its funny, 9 pages or speculation and some out right blame was posted but when I post definitive proof that Stairway was not stolen only two people bother to comment. Where are all those people who were sure it was plagiarized now!?

I don't know, I figured there would be many more people here who would be interested in seeing proof positive of Stairways authenticity.

While we all may agree with you that STH wasn't stolen, it is the nature of this kind of lawsuit that what is proof to you and I might not be proof to a judge.

As for why more people didn't comment on your post - I don't know. I read music but don't read tablature (if that's what that is that used to show the proof) so while I can compare one thing to the other that you offered, I don't actually know what either thing is.

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Its funny, 9 pages or speculation and some out right blame was posted but when I post definitive proof that Stairway was not stolen only two people bother to comment. Where are all those people who were sure it was plagiarized now!?

I don't know, I figured there would be many more people here who would be interested in seeing proof positive of Stairways authenticity.

And the original poster jim6225, disappeared from the website the moment he posted the accusation:

Posted 18 May 2014 - 08:44 AM

Last Active Offline May 18 2014 08:43 AM

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While we all may agree with you that STH wasn't stolen, it is the nature of this kind of lawsuit that what is proof to you and I might not be proof to a judge.

As for why more people didn't comment on your post - I don't know. I read music but don't read tablature (if that's what that is that used to show the proof) so while I can compare one thing to the other that you offered, I don't actually know what either thing is.

Judge or no judge the only way a person can look at the tabs an still feel its been plagiarized is if they have a personal vendetta against Zeppelin or they are just too petty to admit they are wrong.

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And the original poster jim6225, disappeared from the website the moment he posted the accusation:

Posted 18 May 2014 - 08:44 AM

Last Active Offline May 18 2014 08:43 AM

That is so freaking odd. He took all the time to write that post and then have nothing to say in response? Who is this guy? Do you think he has something to do with this lawsuit???

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And the original poster jim6225, disappeared from the website the moment he posted the accusation:

The original poster of what? The comment that no one commented on the proof? That was posted by juxtiphi. He is still here.

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Its funny, 9 pages or speculation and some out right blame was posted but when I post definitive proof that Stairway was not stolen only two people bother to comment. Where are all those people who were sure it was plagiarized now!?

I don't know, I figured there would be many more people here who would be interested in seeing proof positive of Stairways authenticity.

On my phone -- what was this "definitive proof"? There WAS "borrowing," but it was from a Davey Graham instrumental, not from anything by Spirit.

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satire sat·ire [sat-ahyuhthinsp.pngthinsp.pngr]
noun
1.
the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.
2.
a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision,or ridicule.
3.
a literary genre comprising such compositions.

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satire sat·ire [sat-ahyuhthinsp.pngthinsp.pngr]

I've been left behind again. But that's not new.

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I've been left behind again. But that's not new.

I posted that in response to the people bitching about the Stephen Colbert clip.

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I posted that in response to the people bitching about the Stephen Colbert clip.

Okey dokey. I'll just go listen to some LZ and all will be well in my world.

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http://www.businessw...rus-a-reckoning

I don't know if this has been posted but it is an amusing little game.

Thanks juxtiphi for your music post. Of course it is not the same as you have pointed out.

That's the problem. Idiots making headlines that do nothing to solve the controversy. All you have to do is look at the tabs. Only an idiot could say they are the same.

Edited by juxtiphi

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What I find weird is that this is not even the worst case of LZ plagiarism. The Lemon Song, SIBLY, and Nobody's Fault But Mine are much worse cases. Indeed, I find it even more weird that "...Levee..." gives credit to Memphis Minnie, when that song appears to be musically different and somewhat original (lyrics notwithstanding), yet those other 3 tracks I mentioned credit LZ only, when the melodies are very similar to the original songs. NFBM is credited to Page/Plant, when the melody is based note for note on the BWJ original song. TLS is the same story as there is nothing original about the melody.

Why, then, are some tracks credited partially to others, and some are not?

Edited by mrledhed

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Why, then, are some tracks credited partially to others, and some are not?

Because its the blues and many artists have done these songs to the point where they no longer really no who the progenitor was.

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On my phone -- what was this "definitive proof"? There WAS "borrowing," but it was from a Davey Graham instrumental, not from anything by Spirit.

Take a look at the tabs and them tell me you still think Stairway was borrowed enough to where anyone could say they want a credit for writing.. There are only 4 notes in question. I do not believe that 4 notes constitutes theft or even borrowing.

The top one is Taurus

Intro (4/4 time)

Am Am7 Amm7 Am6 Am D Am G

[ Tab from: http://www.guitaretab.com/s/spirit/61731.html ]

E-----5-------5---|-----5-----5-5---|---5-5-----------|-----------------|

B-----5-----5-5---|---5-5-----5-5---|---5-5-----------|-----------------|

G---5-------5-----|---5-------5-5---|---3-3-----------|-----------------|

D-7-----7-6-----6-|-5-----5-4-----4-|-3-------0-------|------------5-/6-|

A-----------------|-----------------|-----------------|-0---------------|

E-----------------|-----------------|-----------------|-----------------|

(Below is Stairway To Heaven intro tab for comparison.)

Stairway To Heaven

Led Zeppelin (1971)

The resolve here is pure genius.

Intro (4/4 time)

Am Am7 Amm7 D F G Am F E

E-------5-7-----7-|-8-----8-2-----2-|-0---------0-----|-----------------|

B-----5-----5-----|---5-------3-----|---1---1-----1---|-0-1-1-----------|

G---5---------5---|-----5-------2---|-----2---------2-|-0-2-2-----------|

D-7-------6-------|-5-------4-------|-3---------------|-----------------|

A-----------------|-----------------|-----------------|-2-0-0---0--/8-7-|

E-----------------|-----------------|-----------------|-----------------|

dummy.gif
Edited by juxtiphi

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What I find weird is that this is not even the worst case of LZ plagiarism. The Lemon Song, SIBLY, and Nobody's Fault But Mine are much worse cases. Indeed, I find it even more weird that "...Levee..." gives credit to Memphis Minnie, when that song appears to be musically different and somewhat original (lyrics notwithstanding), yet those other 3 tracks I mentioned credit LZ only, when the melodies are very similar to the original songs. NFBM is credited to Page/Plant, when the melody is based note for note on the BWJ original song. TLS is the same story as there is nothing original about the melody.

Why, then, are some tracks credited partially to others, and some are not?

Blind Willie Johnson didn't write NBFBM. It's a traditional spiritual that pre-dates his recording.

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satire sat·ire [sat-ahyuhthinsp.pngthinsp.pngr]
noun
1.
the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.
2.
a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision,or ridicule.
3.
a literary genre comprising such compositions.

Thanks and good timing.

'The Alex Jones' school of analytics seems to have permeated the air here :)

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I hate for this to be my first post, but after listening to Spirit's song whose guitarist was Randy California and then reading the article posted on CNN, there is merit in the claims of the dead man's estate. There are only three matching opening chords at the same tempo, but if you listen to the song Taurus at the 1:35 mark, I could just about sing a line or two from Stairway To Heaven. When LZ came to the states, they opened for Spirit. I don't think, however, there was a conscious decision to copy, but I think the inspiration is there. They toured together with Vanilla Fudge and Page did listen to that song at some point. In the article, Page denies any wrongdoing and he is telling the truth, but after LZ became successful on their own, it is not even likely that he would have gone back to listen to Spirit's songs.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/03/showbiz/music/led-zeppelin-stairway-to-heaven-suit/

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if you listen to the song Taurus at the 1:35 mark, I could just about sing a line or two from Stairway To Heaven.

... LZ became successful on their own, it is not even likely that he would have gone back to listen to Spirit's songs.

If you listen to almost any song played by anyone you'll hear a riff or a bit of melody that sounds like some other song. That is the nature of music and of art - that our minds seek out patterns. It is hardwired into brains (not just human brains!).

Without being able to relate to previously encountered and understood patterns, it is impossible for humans (or other beings with brains) to even make sense of what they perceive. This, too, is hardwired into brains. It is impossible for human beings to create art or to perceive art that does not share elements with other art, because without that sharing, human brains couldn't make sense of it. In music it would just be a meaningless cacophony. That's why it is so difficult for many people to make any sense of the most innovative jazz, and why new forms of music are hard for some people to "get".

This is the problem with the stupid lawsuit - that everyone is treating art like it was the stuff of everyday living, which it isn't. Any ordinary human being can hear whether a whole song has been copied and any ordinary human being can recognize parts of songs incorporated into other songs. That's why we all can understand that the "happy birthday" song is what it is no matter how it gets tweaked musically. That's how we can pick out the strains of the Star Spangled Banner when Jimi Hendrix played it - possibly the first ever time that that song had been played that way. That's because it's hardwired into our brains to do so and because to create art it is *necessary* for that to happen to some degree.

A few notes, a phrase shared does NOT make a song a copy of another. If it did, we'd have to toss out most of the music that's ever been created. Does anyone think Beck's Bolero is a copy of Ravel's Bolero because there is a musical phrase in the former that is obviously used? I think not.

PS - I like Darlene MCM's comment about not going back to listen to Spirit's songs, but in fact it is well known that Jimmy Page was/is an avid collector and listener to other people's music. All artists study other artists' work. That's the nature of art!

***

Note: I edited my comments above to remove a rather negative term I used. I do not wish to offend anyone.

Edited by lif

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How is this even still a topic of discussion? Sharing a stock chord progression does not mean that one song stole from the other -- and in this case, as I've said before, Page (et al.) actually "stole" from Davey Graham and not Spirit.

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