Sue Dounim Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I mostly agree about Mannheim. Bonham also sounded quite bored on both performances of Achilles Last Stand. That said the performance of In the Evening on the 3rd is possibly the best of the tour IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmtomh Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I put together my own Best of 1980 compilation a while ago. I don't remember offhand which show I took every single track from, but I do have some observations: 1. Zurich and Frankfurt totally dominated my Best of - they're clearly the best and most consistent performances. IMHO it's not even close. 2. Rotterdam is the only show I've heard where Page gets through the entire Hot Dog solo without screwing it up. 3. The Berlin Whole Lotta Love is unique and a great way for the band to go out (even though it was the 2nd to last song that night). 4. Rock & Roll in the Berlin show is the one other standout performance that night - in fact I think it's the best performance of the tour for that song 5. This was a great and mighty band - but it's shocking how many times they f***ed up Kashmir. I don't know if there's a single untainted performance on the whole tour. 6. The soundboard tapes are ridiculously dry, and the upper registers of Jones' alembic bass in particular sound awful. These soundboard sources really open up nicely if you EQ about 1.5 to 3dB of extra bass in the 60-100Hz region, warm them up slightly with a 1-2dB boost around 250-400Hz - and most importantly, sweeten it all up with some large-hall reverb. Much better listening experience. Was it a warm-up tour? I would say Yes. If they played 14 shows over 3 weeks, it's hard to call it a warm-up when the "real" tour in America would've lasted only a week longer and probably only included one or two more shows. Nevertheless, I think the fact that they played Germany and Austria only, nothing in France, and especially nothing the UK, does indicate that they were trying to get back into fighting shape outside the spotlight. The pressure on them during the American tour would've been enormous: First time in the biggest market in four years, the musical landscape - not to mention much of the culture - totally transformed in that time. High stakes. Finally, the setlist. The old joke comes to mind: "A came is a horse put together by committee." Overall the set is stripped down, a "back to basics" thing - that much is clear. White Summer is probably there because Page didn't fully get the memo, and was so much in his own world, that he wanted to showcase his guitar even after Bonham and Jones had abandoned Moby Dick and No Quarter - and he probably felt White Summer was essential as a lead-in to Achilles. As for TKAR and SIBLY, the former clearly was the ultimately back-to-basics statement-making song, since it was the opener for many of their earliest shows and apparently one of the first (if not the first) songs they ever rehearsed together in 1968. And SIBLY is quintessential Page and Plant blues - the band (or at least the two of them) seem to have had a soft spot for it for years. They didn't do more of the later songs, I assume, because they insisted on remaining a four-piece band onstage. Ten Years Gone was dicey live, and IMHO it's a miracle that Achilles sounded as good as it did given they went from a billion guitar tracks in studio to one guitar live. And much of the other stuff probably just required too many equipment and tuning changes, too much adaptation to simplify the arrangements for live performance, and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ListenToThis Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I think I recall Sue that you found Bonham's drum break during ALS on both nights in Mannheim to be underwhelming - I agree that the soundboard makes it seem so. If you listen to the audience tapes however I think the rapid bass drum during the break seems to reverberate in the venue a little better, and the audience actually increases their cheering a little seemingly indicating it sounded good. Hard to say for sure though. Nevertheless I'm glad he returned to a more traditional and up-tempo break for the last performance in Munich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutrocker Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 ^^^ I can't really argue with anything you've pointed out in yer last couple of posts, Listen To This- and in fact I'd go further and say that the changes that came about in Zeppelin's approach towards performing actually started to show in the 1979 gigs: the pared down arrangements, the lack of self indulgence and general sense of "back to basics" can clearly be heard on the Copenhagen tapes. No drum solos, no twenty minute barrages of guitar noise wankery (sorry Jimmy and Sue!)- just Zeppelin on a bare stage doing what they do best- only difference being that they were older and had a more 'professional' sheen to themselves. The only thing really missing from the 1979/80 shows is Page and Bonham performing at a "peak" level on a nightly basis. If their personal habits had been better, the new sense of focus would have been clearer and could have resulted in some amazing performances. Still, I suppose in the end we shouldn't be complaining at all...Zeppelin fans were damn lucky in a way to get anything more out of the band musically after the final '77 show in Oakland. Imagine if Plant had retired after Karac's death and the band folded and there really had been no In Through The Out Door, no Knebworth, no 1980 tour...how would that have affected Zeppelin's legacy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NealKenneth Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Still, I suppose in the end we shouldn't be complaining at all...Zeppelin fans were damn lucky in a way to get anything more out of the band musically after the final '77 show in Oakland. Imagine if Plant had retired after Karac's death and the band folded and there really had been no In Through The Out Door, no Knebworth, no 1980 tour...how would that have affected Zeppelin's legacy? I'm happy as heck that they kept going after 1977 but, to be honest, I think the total of everything beyond that did more harm to their legacy than good. You could even argue that touring in 77 was a mistake. It's easy for us big fans to get swept away, but compare Zep's first six years to their last six years. They played their first show in September 1968, so by September 1974 they'd already recorded everything on Physical Graffiti and hadn't performed live in over a year. In that context, Physical Graffiti becomes the "Abbey Road" of Led Zeppelin, their last hurrah and arguably finest work finishing a streak of six groundbreaking albums, having already proved they were the best live band ever with hundreds of amazing shows. After that, you get the two worst albums of their career and a overall drop in the quality of live performance. Sure, they had their moments in the studio and plenty of excellent shows in the second half of their career, but had they stopped at either Physical Graffiti or Earls Court, I think their legacy would be even stronger than it is today. No ITTOD, no Knebworth, no 1980, no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 To each his own. I enjoy every part of Zeppelin, for different reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NealKenneth Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Having worked on this idea for a few months and recognizing that this thread is a good place to discuss it, I present a setlist for 1980 that would have made for a stronger tour! Main set: Train Kept A-Rollin' Nobody's Fault but Mine Black Dog The Rain Song Achille's Last Stand All My Love In the Evening Hot Dog Since I've Been Loving You Trampled Underfoot Whole Lotta Love Encores: Money, Communication Breakdown, Rock and Roll, Heartbreaker Based on the recordings we have, this would have made for a show that was about an hour and a half. My goal was to improve the flow of the concert, mostly by changing the order of songs. Since there were only three actually cut, I will explain why I removed each one. White Summer/Black Mountain Side: Meandering and sloppy almost every night, and totally against the theme (cut the waffle) of the tour. Kashmir: Jones new keyboard sound didn't fit the piece, and the only time it went well was Frankfurt. It just didn't feel like they wanted to play the song anymore. Stairway to Heaven: Plant was sick of singing it and you could tell. The solo was outright embarrassing at Berlin, and I think the way he just wouldn't stop was evidence that they planned to cut it for the US tour, like he knew it was the last time he would play it. Using their performance at Frankfurt, here's the revised setlist for your listening pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvxK42G9p9y0Zg9ykIAUuOvLx5J7F75g_ Let me know what you think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Having worked on this idea for a few months and recognizing that this thread is a good place to discuss it, I present a setlist for 1980 that would have made for a stronger tour! Main set: Train Kept A-Rollin' Nobody's Fault but Mine Black Dog The Rain Song Achille's Last Stand All My Love In the Evening Hot Dog Since I've Been Loving You Trampled Underfoot Whole Lotta Love Encores: Money, Communication Breakdown, Rock and Roll, Heartbreaker Based on the recordings we have, this would have made for a show that was about an hour and a half. My goal was to improve the flow of the concert, mostly by changing the order of songs. Since there were only three actually cut, I will explain why I removed each one. White Summer/Black Mountain Side: Meandering and sloppy almost every night, and totally against the theme (cut the waffle) of the tour. Kashmir: Jones new keyboard sound didn't fit the piece, and the only time it went well was Frankfurt. It just didn't feel like they wanted to play the song anymore. Stairway to Heaven: Plant was sick of singing it and you could tell. The solo was outright embarrassing at Berlin, and I think the way he just wouldn't stop was evidence that they planned to cut it for the US tour, like he knew it was the last time he would play it. Using their performance at Frankfurt, here's the revised setlist for your listening pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvxK42G9p9y0Zg9ykIAUuOvLx5J7F75g_ Let me know what you think! Again, to each their own but TBH, I could not agree with you less regarding their latter years, though your revised setlist make a lot of sense. I feel Zeppelins weakest album was their first and I rarely listen to it, after all the album is a good 50% covers so for me it's not even a true Zeppelin album. Presence was the second best album they did, only PG surpassed it, and ITTOD was for all intent and purpose a later day Houses of the Holy and again, 150% better than Zeppelin I. I actually saw Zeppelin in concert on April 10th, 1977 at the Chicago Stadium and I can guarantee that show was amazing, Jimmy gave a very fine performance and except for Ten Years Gone did a better job at this show than at any he did in 73'. Have you listened to the Copenhagen dates in 79', particularly the show on the 24th? This alone is one of the best shows of their career and the Ten Years Gone they did at this show is better than the studio version, the outro solo Page played is nothing short of breathtaking. Now, regarding 80', yes, they should have cut WS/BMS because it was self-indulgent, but meandering and sloppy? Sure, maybe a few shows were sub-par for that tune but most dates he pulls it off just like he did in 70'. The again I always felt the song was too damn long for what it was. If Page would have done an edited version of the song for about four minutes it would have been brilliant. Or better yet, what the hell ever happened to Spanish Blood? I love that goddamn song yet Jimmy never played it. Imagine him switching between BYA and Spanish Blood on different nights, both beautiful pieces, both short and to the point. Again, I really like your revised setlist, however I would have kept Kashmir in and dumped TKAR, swapping that for either Wanton Song, or just starting with NFBM but with the original intro which was left off for this tour. NFBM is really a great warm up tune for Robert's vocals too as it is a relatively easy song to sing, you can vary the key and it makes little to no difference since as far as I am concerned the vocals on this song are very, very secondary to the arrangement and instrumentation. All in all from the boots I have of the 80' tour I really like the approach and the concerts I have sound pretty damn good overall. Thoughts??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Well said IpMan! Every part of Zeppelin has something to offer. '80 tour was something different and as a Zeppelin fan, that's what you love about the band! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutrocker Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 White Summer/Black Mountain Side: Meandering and sloppy almost every night, and totally against the theme (cut the waffle) of the tour. Agreed...Jimmy might have considered it a showpiece for his playing and love of Eastern music, but the damned piece bored the audience to tears- "White Summer" is not what the punters shelled out the bucks to hear! Kashmir: Jones new keyboard sound didn't fit the piece, and the only time it went well was Frankfurt. It just didn't feel like they wanted to play the song anymore. I don't think it was that they didn't want to play it anymore (by that time "Kashmir" had sorta become a song they couldn't not play) but it's such a long, repetitive piece that some nights I think it was hard to sustain the band's interest, hence why they got lost playing it so many times... Stairway to Heaven: Plant was sick of singing it and you could tell. The solo was outright embarrassing at Berlin, and I think the way he just wouldn't stop was evidence that they planned to cut it for the US tour, like he knew it was the last time he would play it. All hell would break loose if they didn't play "Stairway"- it'd be like the Stones not playing "Jumping Jack Flash". There were probably folks who went to see Zeppelin just to hear them play STH. I think that's part of the reason why Plant got to resent the song so much, because he knew there was no escaping it. Perhaps some sort of rearrangement might have done the trick... however I would have kept Kashmir in and dumped TKAR, swapping that for either Wanton Song, or just starting with NFBM but with the original intro which was left off for this tour. NFBM is really a great warm up tune for Robert's vocals too as it is a relatively easy song to sing, you can vary the key and it makes little to no difference since as far as I am concerned the vocals on this song are very, very secondary to the arrangement and instrumentation. I think "Train Kept A Rollin'" was a poignant opener, since it represented part of the band's history (first song they played, etc). And it was a good warmup before they got down to the nitty gritty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NealKenneth Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Or better yet, what the hell ever happened to Spanish Blood? I love that goddamn song yet Jimmy never played it. Imagine him switching between BYA and Spanish Blood on different nights, both beautiful pieces, both short and to the point. Again, I really like your revised setlist, however I would have kept Kashmir in and dumped TKAR, swapping that for either Wanton Song, or just starting with NFBM but with the original intro which was left off for this tour. NFBM is really a great warm up tune for Robert's vocals too as it is a relatively easy song to sing, you can vary the key and it makes little to no difference since as far as I am concerned the vocals on this song are very, very secondary to the arrangement and instrumentation. It's an interesting idea to switch in other songs like Spanish Blood or The Wanton Song, but I decided to stick to working with what we already have/what they actually did. Once you start talking about other songs, it's hard to say where we should draw the line...for example, I think 1980 needed a song they could jam on, like No Quarter or Dazed and Confused, but the closest thing they did was Whole Lotta Love, and even that was only an encore on some nights. It would have been the perfect time to introduce In The Light, and turn that into a 25-minute odyssey but...it just didn't happen! Kashmir was the one of three that I struggled most with removing. The problem with it isn't that it's poorly done, it's just that it only reached the heights of 75 or 77 performances at Frankfurt. Maybe this was because it's repetitiveness made it too easy to auto-pilot on, like Nutrocker said, but whatever the reason I just don't feel like their heart was in it. Every song I kept on the setlist was either new (In the Evening, All My Love, Hot Dog etc.), a new arrangement (Achille's was slowed down and almost funky compared to the frantic 77 performances, NFBM cut the intro and felt more agressive, WLL had a newborn grooviness) or was a song that they had stopped playing only to resuscitate it (SIBLY was only played three times in 75, Black Dog only thrice in 77, The Rain Song was zero for 77 and TKAR hadn't been played in a decade). I think 1980 was the time to set down Kashmir for awhile to see if they felt like resuscitating it later on. In any case, there was no way I could skip Train Kept A-Rollin'. It was a clear statement about their new direction and was the perfect choice to start their shows for the tour. Well said IpMan! Every part of Zeppelin has something to offer. '80 tour was something different and as a Zeppelin fan, that's what you love about the band! Just to be clear, I'm a big fan of Zeppelin's later stuff. Achille's Last Stand was my favorite of their songs for awhile, and I still consider it within their top five greatest. ITTOD is a solid album with a lot of tracks I love. I also really enjoy the 77, 79, and 80 tours (as I'm sure you can tell by the way I spent months redesigning the setlists). I'm happy 1980 is totally different than 1970! I just think either Physical Graffiti or Earls Court was where returns started diminishing in regards to building their legacy. All hell would break loose if they didn't play "Stairway"- it'd be like the Stones not playing "Jumping Jack Flash". There were probably folks who went to see Zeppelin just to hear them play STH. I think that's part of the reason why Plant got to resent the song so much, because he knew there was no escaping it. Perhaps some sort of rearrangement might have done the trick... It may seem insane, but it was a move they needed to make and audiences were just going to have to find a way to survive. Radiohead don't play Creep, after all, and they still have a big following and great live reputation. Maybe they could have put "We're NOT going to play Stairway!" on the advertisements for the tour if they were concerned with fan response at their concerts. A new arrangement might have been enough to relieve the band, but I guess we'll never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutrocker Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Maybe they could have put "We're NOT going to play Stairway!" on the advertisements for the tour if they were concerned with fan response at their concerts. That might have worked...if nothing else, it would certainly have separated the diehard fans from the fair weather "Is that the guy who does 'Stairway To Heaven'?" fans. Would have made for interesting reading in interviews as well...I would have liked to have read Plant's responses to the inevitable "Why did you drop 'Stairway'?" question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NealKenneth Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Yes, it definitely would have sifted out some of the less-devoted fans, and I think they would have been happier with that. Even before deciding to do Knebworth, it seems like they wanted to go smaller, as evidenced by this quote from Plant: "It was our first British gig in four years and we could have gone back to the Queen's Head pub. We talked about doing something like that. " Tour Over Europe 1980 was an arena tour, probably averaging around 8,000-10,000 seats per show. They might have been able to get down to the 2,000-5,000 seat range just by cutting Stairway. Copenhagen 79 was at Falkoner Theatret, which seated about 2,000. We all know how great that show was! I think the whole 1980 tour could have been on that level with a more ambitious setlist, and the members of Zeppelin would have been happier for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juxtiphi Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Yes, it definitely would have sifted out some of the less-devoted fans, and I think they would have been happier with that. Even before deciding to do Knebworth, it seems like they wanted to go smaller, as evidenced by this quote from Plant: "It was our first British gig in four years and we could have gone back to the Queen's Head pub. We talked about doing something like that. " Tour Over Europe 1980 was an arena tour, probably averaging around 8,000-10,000 seats per show. They might have been able to get down to the 2,000-5,000 seat range just by cutting Stairway. Copenhagen 79 was at Falkoner Theatret, which seated about 2,000. We all know how great that show was! I think the whole 1980 tour could have been on that level with a more ambitious setlist, and the members of Zeppelin would have been happier for it. I agree they bit off a bit more than they could chew. A smaller more intimate setting would have done them a world of good by way of being able to gauge the aud and themselves for future shows in bigger arenas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stairway is NOT stolen Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Listening to Berlin 1980, i finally figured out what's wrong with White Summer. Jimmy repeats alot of it in the song. For example, he repeats the intro like 3 times in a row. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Dounim Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Listening to Berlin 1980, i finally figured out what's wrong with White Summer. Jimmy repeats alot of it in the song. For example, he repeats the intro like 3 times in a row. That and his general inability to play guitar for 15 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithril46 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I think one thing that hasn't really been mentioned is for all of Page's greatness, a lot of it is inextricably bound up with Bonzo's Drumming. On the 80' tour, IMO Bonham was in worse shape than Page, and on many boots from better times it is easy to hear Bonzo pushing Page into frenzied bliss, or vice versa. Bonzo playing things "straight" also kind of eliminated his function as a rhythm guitarist while Page soloed. I do agree that they could have played just a 1 1/2 hr set, plus encores. This could have made Page and Bonham Possibly play with more focus and energy, for obvious reasons. I think that Page actually played overall more Consistent than 77', but also played with less inspiration and energy. I'm sure one of the reasons Page is so reticent with the drug thing is the horrible downfall of his playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutrocker Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 That and his general inability to play guitar for 15 minutes. I'm sure one of the reasons Page is so reticent with the drug thing is the horrible downfall of his playing. Well, that and the numerous sprained fingers etc he suffered over the years- that didn't help with his playing much, either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithril46 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Well I'm a guitar player and my perception may be off but in 77' Page got into many train wrecks and playing out of key and/or out Of time. He didn't actually play better in 80', it just seemed like yes, there were still too many screw ups, but his rhythm guitar playing In particular was better(consistency wise) than 77'. Even some of the good shows from 77' I just can't take because Page sounds like A dead drunk trying to balance on one foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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