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Gandolf

Full RAH Heartbreaker : Possibility of Existence?

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This is a very debatable topic, but I'd like to state my opinion anyways, I even have proof to back up my theory, but it's just my opinion, you could think whatever you want and I'm cool with it. I think that the tape didn't run out during Heartbreaker, but somewhere during here:

Long Tall Sally

During 2:38, the audio goes from a multitrack tape to a more distant audience-sounding-ish tape (it's most likely to come from the cameras), therefore I think the tape ran out during the performance of Long Tall Sally and not Heartbreaker, and this is also one of the few reasons this wasn't included in the DVD.

So, this solved one question for me, but there is another that is still in my head right now, where there hell is the rest of Heartbreaker from the Royal Albert Hall?!

Edited by Gandolf

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This is a very debatable topic, but I'd like to state my opinion anyways, I even have proof to back up my theory, but it's just my opinion, you could think whatever you want and I'm cool with it. I think that the tape didn't run out during Heartbreaker, but somewhere during here:

Long Tall Sally

http://youtu.be/DftQYxA_OtQ

During 2:38, the audio goes from a multitrack tape to a more distant audience-sounding-ish tape (it's most likely to come from the cameras), therefore I think the tape ran out during the performance of Long Tall Sally and not Heartbreaker, and this is also one of the few reasons this wasn't included in the DVD.

So, this solved one question for me, but there is another that is still in my head right now, where there hell is the rest of Heartbreaker from the Royal Albert Hall?!

Approximately the first two minutes of Heatbreaker was recorded and this is available on one of the menus on DVD. The tape then ran out. I have a full 3:30 multitracked version of Long Tall Sally, so the audio tape did not run out during that song as far as I am aware. Maybe too much of the video is missing or it's a rights issue. SIBLY was also recorded but not released because due to a technical fault Jonesy's keyboards were not recorded. Those, I believe are the facts.

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In the 70's multitrack tape was generally sold in 10.5" reels which held about 2400 feet of tape.
Making the assumption that they ran the tape at 15ips (inches per second) rather than the usual 30ips to conserve tape and cut down on tape changes we can calculate:

2400 x 12 (feet into inches) = 28800 inches per reel
28800 / 15 (inches into seconds) = 1920 seconds per reel
1920 / 60 (seconds into minutes) = 32 minutes per reel.

The ideal situation would be to have two multitrack machines running, each one starting 28-30 minutes after the last one (according to Eddie Kramer this is how they dealt with TSRTS). This allows for a bit of overlap between tapes so that if a song runs over the end of one tape and into the beginning of another you can splice the tapes together to get a complete recording.

From the evidence of 'Long Tall Sally' it would appear that they possibly only had one tape machine - that gap in the song that has been replaced by an audience recording (it's highly unlikely the film cameras dealt with sound too) is about the length of time it would take to swap a reel over. If that's the case, and the tape ran out during 'Heartbreaker' then there's probably a fair chunk of it missing.
Saying that though..... 'Long Tall Sally' was the end of the gig and chances are the tape-op either took his eye off the ball, or though that it might just fit on the current reel, so if there were two tape machines, he didn't cue up the next one to run thinking that the gig was about to finish.

All you really need to do to work it out is find accurate timings for the songs and the gaps between them and calculate exactly when each tape swap needed to happen - bearing in mind that if the tape op was a smart lad he would have been keeping an eye on the tape and listening to the show so that he could swap between songs if he thought the tape might run out mid-song, in the grim hope that they waffled for long enough between songs to give him time to do that!

I would assume that they used the Rolling Stones Mobile studio to record the gig, but I can't find any info about how many tape machines it had in January 1970 (I know it was running 8-track then, but that's about it).

As far as if it exists in its entirety or not - you'd have to ask Jimmy or Kevin Shirley, who is on record as saying they didn't use 'Heartbreaker' because there was no available footage for it (for use on DVD), which is a whole other kettle of fish.

Edited by woz70

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Unless I'm massively mistaken, there is a complete cut of "Long Tall Sally" -- the 1970 AM radio broadcast.

Edited by Melcórë

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Unless I'm massively mistaken, there is a complete cut of "Long Tall Sally" -- the 1970 AM radio broadcast.

Yeah - I read that in the post above mine after I posted, and watching the vid again there is EXACTLY 3 minutes of multitrack audio missing which is a little suspect. Although - the AM broadcast would not have come from the multitrack feed, but more likely from the desk, or a separate pair of mic's set up especially for radio.

The point still stands though - from the timings on DVD (give or take a little editing between songs and at the beginning of the gig) 'Heartbreaker' would have begun at about half an hour into the gig, making it extremely likely that it hit that 32 minute (ish) running-out-of-tape slot. If a tape-op is REALLY quick, well prepared, and doesn't rewind the tape before changing it, he could probably do a swap in 2-3 minutes. But he still would have lost a big chunk of the song IF they were running on only one machine.

Given that he'd lost a big chunk of the song you have to ask yourself if he'd even bother starting the tape to record the rest of it or wait until the beginning of 'Dazed & Confused' to make damn sure he didn't miss any of that - I think that's possibly what I would have done in the situation, knowing that 'Heartbreaker' would have been unsalvageable.

Edited by woz70

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The 1970 AM broadcast doesn't have Long Tall Sally, but it contains unedited versions of every song featured. (most of the songs on the AM broadcast has at least one edit).

Edited by ledzepfilm

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The Lost Mixes EP Vol 7, Empress Valley Supreme Disc has what I thought was a full recording of Long Tall Sally, but looking at the YouTube video it seems this was edited down from the full-length version. You learn something new every day!

Edited by For My Life

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The 1970 AM broadcast doesn't have Long Tall Sally, but it contains unedited versions of every song featured. (most of the songs on the AM broadcast has at least one edit).

I don't know why I thought it did...ah well. Maybe one of the other "soundboard" sources I have...

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The only source that contains the missing part in the multitrack LTS is the video soundtrack from the alternate cut.

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I've had a long standing personal theory that some, if not all, of the sound check prior to the RAH performance was filmed*.

I wonder if this is the case. And if so, were any of the truncated tracks played in their entirety?

* pure speculation based on Robert holding two microphones in the few photos from the sound check.

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I've only seen photos of Page and Bonham in action from the soundcheck as well as the four of them standing together. Would you care to show the picture of Robert from the soundcheck?

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In the 70's multitrack tape was generally sold in 10.5" reels which held about 2400 feet of tape.

Making the assumption that they ran the tape at 15ips (inches per second)

I would assume that they used the Rolling Stones Mobile studio to record the gig, but I can't find any info about how many tape machines it had in January 1970 (I know it was running 8-track then, but that's about it).

As far as if it exists in its entirety or not - you'd have to ask Jimmy or Kevin Shirley, who is on record as saying they didn't use 'Heartbreaker' because there was no available footage for it (for use on DVD), which is a whole other kettle of fish.

They used the Pye mobile studio. If memory serves me well this one was a Vista 8 track deck, also employed by The Who for 'Live At Leeds'

The 'no available footage' theory doesn't make sense, because large chunks from the other tracks are also missing. They used a montage of slow motion and stills to deal with that.

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They used the Pye mobile studio. If memory serves me well this one was a Vista 8 track deck, also employed by The Who for 'Live At Leeds'

The 'no available footage' theory doesn't make sense, because large chunks from the other tracks are also missing. They used a montage of slow motion and stills to deal with that.

So.... did the Pye mobile have one or two tape machines in January 1970? If it was only one then the conundrum is solved!

If there was no footage for Heartbreaker then the slow motion/montage approach would've been pretty tedious to watch for 6-8 minutes, so it does make sense really. All of the other tracks that use this approach have a majority of time with film focussed on the band.

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There was certainly footage shot of Heartbreaker as a quick fragment of footage appears in the credits on DVD. I believe that this shot takes place after the audio cuts out.

Edited by ledzepfilm

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The only source that contains the missing part in the multitrack LTS is the video soundtrack from the alternate cut.

I have found the "Long Tall Sally" mix that I was thinking of -- it's found on the Tarantura release The Royal Dragon and is 7:40 long. The description is that it's the "video soundtrack" -- sonically, it's identical to the alternate cut after 2:38 in the video above -- and is not an audience recording (or at least not a distant one) because it shares the loud whistle captured on the multi-track tape.

I don't know if the multi-track tape was actually incomplete, or whether the track was simply shortened due to considerations of time or in order to cut out Plant's references to other songs.

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The track was probably shortened for the DVD because of royalties/performance/etc.

Edited by ledzepfilm

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The audio recording did run out during Heartbreaker. Long Tall Sally was edited down for the multitrack mix down - and since that mix down is what leaked out to form the basis of all the bootlegs, that's why Long Tall Sally is incomplete - it's not because the tape ran out (and even if it had run out then, it doesn't mean it didn't also run out earlier, during Heartbreaker).

In addition to the first 3:30 of Heartbreaker existing, there's also most of the audience applause, and all of Plant's between-song banter afterwords. So, based on similar performances of the track from that era, it appears about 2-1/2 minutes is missing, which seems about right in terms of making a reel change.

Also, it might be clear already, but in case it's not: gaps in video footage and audio footage are not connected. The cameras were separate from the audio recording gear (even if the cameras had their own, inferior mics) and AFAIK each camera magazine would need to be changed at a different interval than the audio tape. So any gaps wouldn't line up.

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Wasn't Sibly played too? What happened to that portion?

And "Thank You" as well. For whatever reason, those songs were excised.

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But surely they were filmed right? I mean why wouldn't they?

There might have been issues with the film or audio -- or maybe the performances were considered too embryonic, as suggested by Eddie Edwards.

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this seems to be the longest Heartbreaker from RAH I could find. Have loved this forum, and was a member of ledzeppelin.org back in the day, love to be a part of such an awesome community :) and Melcore i gotta say even though the versions of SIBLY, Thank You were embryonic, that's what we'd want anyway, to show the band work out the songs live from the humble, restrained just-play-the-bloody-thing-right mentality to the extravagance and jamming on them in later years. id give my left nut to have the DVD done again with full versions of SIBLY, Thank You, Heartbreaker and the Long Tall Sally Medley but beggars cannot be choosers and we must remember what Jimmy Page did give us was the Holy Grail....and now we are on to new Grails...

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this seems to be the longest Heartbreaker from RAH I could find. Have loved this forum, and was a member of ledzeppelin.org back in the day, love to be a part of such an awesome community :) and Melcore i gotta say even though the versions of SIBLY, Thank You were embryonic, that's what we'd want anyway, to show the band work out the songs live from the humble, restrained just-play-the-bloody-thing-right mentality to the extravagance and jamming on them in later years. id give my left nut to have the DVD done again with full versions of SIBLY, Thank You, Heartbreaker and the Long Tall Sally Medley but beggars cannot be choosers and we must remember what Jimmy Page did give us was the Holy Grail....and now we are on to new Grails...

Hmmmmmmmm. I wonder if someone could post Heartbreaker, and fill the remaining with the audio of L'Olympia Paris! That would be cool!

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this seems to be the longest Heartbreaker from RAH I could find. Have loved this forum, and was a member of ledzeppelin.org back in the day, love to be a part of such an awesome community :) and Melcore i gotta say even though the versions of SIBLY, Thank You were embryonic, that's what we'd want anyway, to show the band work out the songs live from the humble, restrained just-play-the-bloody-thing-right mentality to the extravagance and jamming on them in later years. id give my left nut to have the DVD done again with full versions of SIBLY, Thank You, Heartbreaker and the Long Tall Sally Medley but beggars cannot be choosers and we must remember what Jimmy Page did give us was the Holy Grail....and now we are on to new Grails...

He sounds a little tentative during the solo. Probably felt he still hadn't mastered it live yet, just look what he did to the L'Olympia version!

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