Jump to content
Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Sign in to follow this  
osoz

So is Jimmy Page a 'sloppy' player?

Recommended Posts

Page is first of all an amazing composer and producer and a guitarist with an amazing performance ability and improvisation, with a a very unique sound, even many sounds, which even in the earliest days, included some techical imperfections, if defined by the best techical guitarists and their best live perfomances.  I also think, that the course of Page's life, has been quite defined by his extremely creative soul!

 

Latter he obviously declined, but in 2007 and in particulary in 1998, he very often had atlest 80 percent of his early Zep techical ablity and quite a few times even more! And his SIBLY solo is very emotional and there are no mistakes, just his signature sound and he wanted to play a slow solo ala Clapton, as proven by the fast solos, he could still play!

 

I also think his lyrical, Walking into Clarskdale type of guitar playing , still didn't get enough recognition and sadly that was his last album release, back in the days, when Zep was still far from being as universally critically acknowleged, as it is now!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hopefully I am wrong but there does seem to be something strange here.

Some of the commenting on the 98' shows sounds like some are possibly

commenting on shows/songs that they have never heard. NO 98' has

to be one of Page's most blazing HMMT ever. The technique is thru

the roof( What slowdown, .05 % !?!?) and a bow solo that without all the

bells and whistles comes close to sounding as monstrous as Lucifer Rising.

As far as inactivity, Page does/has suffered from major anxiety from stage

fright, and insecurity about his playing. As well he may know that he may have to jump back into alcohol/drug use to get thru things. For other people, if this is the case, nobody understands this. But none of this should

matter much as far as practicing at home, or practicing with other musicians in private situations.

Edited by Mithril46
Not saving

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, there is no slow down in Heartbreaker and How many more times,

 

And he was damn good in 1988 and in early nineties with Coverdale too, some say that was his most original guitar work since Zeppelin!

 

I think that guy heavybluesfan, is like trying to make Page almost irrelevant, because his best techical days, are so far back,

which obviously isn't true and he could become as slow as Clapton and still be very relevant, simply based on the material!

Edited by Matjaz1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another issue is that on many of the guitar forums, Page isnt being accused of "being sloppy" after a certain period of time in his career.

There are guys that firmly believe he was sloppy, as a live player, his ENTIRE career.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wrong-note-rod said:

Another issue is that on many of the guitar forums, Page isnt being accused of "being sloppy" after a certain period of time in his career.

There are guys that firmly believe he was sloppy, as a live player, his ENTIRE career.

This is very true. Page and Hendrix, in their technical prime, in particular would be considered sloppy as hell to any of the post-Lukather / Schenkar shredders. Once those two came on the scene the game was changed considerably in regard to technique and the emphasis toward both speed and precision. As a huge Hendrix fan, when I listen to his live stuff vs. a shredder from the 80's he is indeed sloppy, but then again he was going for a different approach (emotional impact and avant garde structures). Even Blackmore, one of the more technical players for the era is somewhat sloppy compared to someone like Lukather. Just like trying to compare Les Paul or Bill Haley to Jimmy Page, comparing Page or Hendrix to say Steve Vai is pointless. Very different styles, very different eras, and most importantly, different expectations from both the musical community of the time as well as the fans. It would be like calling Caravaggio irrelevant by fans of Picasso due to his lack of surrealistic content.

So, in the end it really does depend on ones perspective. However Jimmy was indeed inconsistent as a live player from 77' - 83', and his performance in 88' at the Atlantic 40th was, IMO, his absolute low point and an embarrassment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah yes the Atlantic 40th. How much fun was that? :shifty: Haha yeah that's a big no across the
board for that one. The list is too long on what's not to like. Words can't express how much
better Jimmy was at the O2.

Speaking of the O2...I know he cleaned up before '07, but a guy with nerves like him could've
very easily gotten swept back in and used the excuse that he needed something for that one
night- which really  would've been awful considering they couldn't afford yet ANOTHER Zep
outting where Jimmy's basically drooling and falling over. It would've been a travesty to close it
out like that. Thank God the O2 show turned out good for them.

I do wonder if Plant was any type of factor in Jimmy staying on the wagon firmly for that gig. I ask
because based on some of the things I've read on this site, I get the feeling that the last time he and
Plant toured - Plant was basically getting to the end of his rope with Jimmy's habits prior to going on
stage. No clue how true that is.

Anyways a great job it was. I'm glad the 3 of them and Jason were able to finally do a reunion show
that they could all be pleased about. 

Edited by KellyGirl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I find some of the microscopic criticism of Page in 07' on this thread overbearing. Page wasn't spectacular, but

75% of his playing was good or very good and yes some of the rest was uneven or shaky. But some forget that even

some of Zep's greatest shows have patches where Page is staggering a bit. IMO some of Page's playing on some of

the 71' BBC stuff is a bit lazy (is this considered a great show, even ??) and a noticeable amount of solos seem to

be very Claptonesque, lacking Page's usual sting. And even the 77' Forum shows, many solos may peak at some

point, but there are noticeable potholes. Just listen to as many 98' shows as possible, you shall also discover how

consistent Jimmy was on this tour, even early Zep Jimmy was prone IMO to more ups and downs than his contemporaries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Too many critics came from the 1980's school of technical perfection.  A completely different style of playing and in my opinion far less interesting, but post-Zeppelin people were looking to be critics after the band broke up and taking shots after the band was gone.  Putting aside the possibility of booze or other medication in his system, Page had a free style live that allowed the band to play three hours and with the creativity, taking songs in different directions.  ten minute solos, peaks and valleys that even the band themselves don't know how the sound will end.   Creativity does that.

With all due respect to the technically "perfect" guitarists, there is a reason the most creative guitarists are viewed with the highest esteem.  Furthermore, Page was doing plenty of session work, a testament to his skill and creativity, he wouldn't be hired at his young age if he weren't technically strong.  Doing things for the Kinks and other bands, often without fanfare.  There is a difference between Page up to say '73 or '75 and after, sure.   That goes for any guitarist who lived through those years.

One fact I always find interesting is that there are many who suggest Page was sloppy and even reliant on his band (the funniest and most preposterous statement), yet, what is the most covered song by them by other bands?  Whole Lotta Love...not exactly pushing the envelope in terms of guitar work, and that was something Page did in his early twenties and within months of forming LZ.  I have heard VH cover Trampled Underfoot and EVH couldn't replicate the sound with much accuracy.  I believe the inability of other bands to tackle their best songs illustrate the technical skill and difficulty of them.  The O2 version sounded excellent and I challenge any band today replicate and bring more power to that song than they did nearly four decades after their last concert as an original four.   That's just one example.

As a final point.  We have heard great covers of different musicians songs.  Have you ever heard a cover band, or a really talented band cover a LZ song and you said "wow, they sounded better than the original?".  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Canadianzepper said:

Too many critics came from the 1980's school of technical perfection.  A completely different style of playing and in my opinion far less interesting, but post-Zeppelin people were looking to be critics after the band broke up and taking shots after the band was gone.  Putting aside the possibility of booze or other medication in his system, Page had a free style live that allowed the band to play three hours and with the creativity, taking songs in different directions.  ten minute solos, peaks and valleys that even the band themselves don't know how the sound will end.   Creativity does that.

With all due respect to the technically "perfect" guitarists, there is a reason the most creative guitarists are viewed with the highest esteem.  Furthermore, Page was doing plenty of session work, a testament to his skill and creativity, he wouldn't be hired at his young age if he weren't technically strong.  Doing things for the Kinks and other bands, often without fanfare.  There is a difference between Page up to say '73 or '75 and after, sure.   That goes for any guitarist who lived through those years.

One fact I always find interesting is that there are many who suggest Page was sloppy and even reliant on his band (the funniest and most preposterous statement), yet, what is the most covered song by them by other bands?  Whole Lotta Love...not exactly pushing the envelope in terms of guitar work, and that was something Page did in his early twenties and within months of forming LZ.  I have heard VH cover Trampled Underfoot and EVH couldn't replicate the sound with much accuracy.  I believe the inability of other bands to tackle their best songs illustrate the technical skill and difficulty of them.  The O2 version sounded excellent and I challenge any band today replicate and bring more power to that song than they did nearly four decades after their last concert as an original four.   That's just one example.

As a final point.  We have heard great covers of different musicians songs.  Have you ever heard a cover band, or a really talented band cover a LZ song and you said "wow, they sounded better than the original?".  

I'm with this guy!!! From one Canuck to another. welcome to the board!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 19/01/2016 at 11:59 AM, IpMan said:

This is very true. Page and Hendrix, in their technical prime, in particular would be considered sloppy as hell to any of the post-Lukather / Schenkar shredders. Once those two came on the scene the game was changed considerably in regard to technique and the emphasis toward both speed and precision. As a huge Hendrix fan, when I listen to his live stuff vs. a shredder from the 80's he is indeed sloppy, but then again he was going for a different approach (emotional impact and avant garde structures). Even Blackmore, one of the more technical players for the era is somewhat sloppy compared to someone like Lukather. Just like trying to compare Les Paul or Bill Haley to Jimmy Page, comparing Page or Hendrix to say Steve Vai is pointless. Very different styles, very different eras, and most importantly, different expectations from both the musical community of the time as well as the fans. It would be like calling Caravaggio irrelevant by fans of Picasso due to his lack of surrealistic content.

So, in the end it really does depend on ones perspective. However Jimmy was indeed inconsistent as a live player from 77' - 83', and his performance in 88' at the Atlantic 40th was, IMO, his absolute low point and an embarrassment.

 

Agree totally about Hendrix.  I have always believed there are the two Jimmy's (Jimis) and then everyone else.  That's the high water mark for me as a passive listener of their work.  You can put on any Zeppelin or Hendrix album and I can listen to it from end to end, even songs you may not enjoy, I can't say the same for certain guitarists.  I listen to half a song and other than nodding my head on how well he hit that G or E note in a G minor tuning, it doesn't interest, inspire, move or groove me.

There are many guitarists whos' work I enjoy, none of them structurally perfect.  It comes down to creativity and vision.  You can't learn that, you have it or you don't.  Like anything in life, there are a few who just have something others don't and it allows them to excel simply by the fact that others don't have that innate ability.  If it doesn't sound perfect, or is stated to be "sloppy" based on the fact it isn't a perfect note, so be it, I can accept that.  If you want to hear perfect vocals go to the operate, perfect guitar, listen to instructional videos on how to play the classics.  The process of creativity and expressing that creativity in a live setting, isn't mathematics.

Like love or any emotion or abstract idea, you can't define why or how music makes you feel, you like it or you don't.  it affects you in some manner or it doesn't. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At times he was sloppy but that was mainly due to the fact he was playing the parts of two guitars and sometimes three in a group with a single guitar player and because he was a heroin addict. 

Case in point, Ten Years Gone with the Black Crowes has FOUR guitarists playing and I probably still prefer his shaky but still quite brilliant solo 1977 Kingdome version.

Listen to the early stuff. That goes for Page and Plant. Jones and Bonham were consistently brilliant from start to end. Not sure anyone will ever reach the heights of early Zeppelin live. Not for a four piece. Incredible sound and playing from all four.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahhh, the thread that will not die.

The "sloppiness" issue has always been overblown. He was very on-point for the majority of his years with Led Zeppelin. For all the criticism levelled at Led Zeppelin, reviewers never criticized Jimmy Page's playing technique...in fact, many of the early reviews were full of praise of Jimmy's guitar playing. Some critics even considered Led Zeppelin all technique and no soul.

It really wasn't until Eddie Van Halen blabbed his mouth and the 1980 soundboards that were stolen from Jimmy came out on CD that the "Jimmy Page is sloppy" meme got started. Yes, some of those bootlegs from 1977-1980 show a ragged Jimmy, but it wasn't every night. He was better than most people give him credit for in those years. 

You try playing songs with multiple guitar parts with your guitar down to your knees while doing the Electro-stagger-strut loaded to the gills and see how clean you can perform?

The only question that matters is still: Whether he was sloppy or not, did his playing "speak" to you? If so, that's all that counts.

Let the anal retentive trainspotters criticize all they want. They are missing the forest for the trees.

Does anyone remember forests?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Strider said:

Ahhh, the thread that will not die.

The "sloppiness" issue has always been overblown. He was very on-point for the majority of his years with Led Zeppelin. For all the criticism levelled at Led Zeppelin, reviewers never criticized Jimmy Page's playing technique...in fact, many of the early reviews were full of praise of Jimmy's guitar playing. Some critics even considered Led Zeppelin all technique and no soul.

It really wasn't until Eddie Van Halen blabbed his mouth and the 1980 soundboards that were stolen from Jimmy came out on CD that the "Jimmy Page is sloppy" meme got started. Yes, some of those bootlegs from 1977-1980 show a ragged Jimmy, but it wasn't every night. He was better than most people give him credit for in those years. 

You try playing songs with multiple guitar parts with your guitar down to your knees while doing the Electro-stagger-strut loaded to the gills and see how clean you can perform?

The only question that matters is still: Whether he was sloppy or not, did his playing "speak" to you? If so, that's all that counts.

Let the anal retentive trainspotters criticize all they want. They are missing the forest for the trees.

Does anyone remember forests?

100%. speaking to you - such a good way to put it. I'll admit, some of the 1980 stuff is pure horrible (White Summer comes to mind), but like you said, it's some of it, not all of it. There are moments that are not surpassed from 1980. Where even under all that excess, those four men could produce things that speak to you on an absolutely incredible level. Some stuff they pulled of was perfection. If anyone has heard a more powerful, exploratory, groovy piece, where all four are absolutely in tune, and still very innovative than Trampled Underfoot from either Zurich OR the following night in Frankfurt - from ANY artist, I'd be stunned. Sue posted that WLL from 1980 recently too, which blew me away.

Sloppy?, a bit, but more accurate IMHO is to say - Tight but Loose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill Nelson recently said: 'You're chasing magic, not looking for perfection.' Sums it up nicely.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Brigante said:

Bill Nelson recently said: 'You're chasing magic, not looking for perfection.' Sums it up nicely.  

Yes!!! But, IMO it was the chemical reaction that was magical. The alchemy of the four elements. They collectively caught magic. To me, nothing after Bonzo's death is worthy of those defenses, tight but loose , sloppy but magical. Yes they've had successful carreers post Zep but none of them have produced music that I want to listen to on a regular basis. Of course Page was sloppy, especially live when he was high, trying to play voicings and parts to cover two guitar lines at times, guitar slung down low, gyrating and posing constantly. Plants voice was pretty well fucked after 1972 as well. But the alchemy transformed the overall sound into rarefied musical gold.  Plenty of guitarists , musicians for that matter , that are technically precise but it goes in one ear and out the other. Pagey sticks in the middle of the head, flubbed notes and all. 

Edited by porgie66

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I think Jimmy's injuries to his fretting fingers played a major factor and should be taken into consideration. It literally forced him to change his style/technique, especially in '75. And, I'm quoting myself here: "The biggest problem with finger injuries is that they never seem to fully heal, and worst of all, become early candidates for arthritic conditions". I also think he deserves a shitload of credit for powering through these injuries during grueling tours, finger injuries are painful as hell man, even if your not playing the guitar. Time for the Jack Daniels and the painkillers and the 'wheels roll on'.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I say that overall Jimmy was not sloppy, but as many have said later Zep, more tendency to be sloppy. And the funny thing,

I am a guitar player. Many times in solos(live) Jimmy would launch into some super fast run unevenly, mixed with much

clearer parts. The tremendous difficulty in playing exactly like Page was in learning the highly impressionistic parts,

where Page would hit other strings by accident, hit a note or two unclearly, or be "smearing" of some of the notes.

Often when this happened Jimmy sounded unlike any other guitarist, although if this "technique" went on too long,

it would be grating. A great example, 5/22/77, solo in ALS. Broken fingers, but also ripping runs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since Page has not picked up a guitar to actually play the damn thing in years how the hell can anyone know what kind or style of guitar player Jimmy Page is? I actually remember waiting with excitement for Outrider to come out back in the summer of 1988, and I also was excited for Coverdale Page the day it was released. With what has  been happening lately it's really hard to cheer lead or be a fan anymore. Perhaps Jimmy is done? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Charles J. White said:

Since Page has not picked up a guitar to actually play the damn thing in years how the hell can anyone know what kind or style of guitar player Jimmy Page is? I actually remember waiting with excitement for Outrider to come out back in the summer of 1988, and I also was excited for Coverdale Page the day it was released. With what has  been happening lately it's really hard to cheer lead or be a fan anymore. Perhaps Jimmy is done? 

I don't think this thread is about his playing now, which as we all know is non-existent. However, nothing can erase the magnitude of Jimmy Page's ability to touch people with his guitar playing, he's one of a kind. Fan for life right here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...