jimmie ray Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Not following all the support for fast food workers wanting $15 an hour, while many other lines of work that demand literacy, dedication, skills etc... still make much less. I do understand that many can't raise a family or afford a house with less - but these jobs used to typically be filled by teens and semi retired people. Most immigrants live together in groups of wage earners - or live up here for several months, then go back to their families where the U.S dollar can get them quite comfortable in their homeland. I've heard the ordering system at the register has pictures of the food - so the training probably takes what, an hour? I know from experience many trades start around $8 an hour, and that's here in NY, with trade school certification or even 2 years college degree. So which is the more appealing route for a young person? How about teachers assistants and health care workers, who need so much training and have to deal with kids issues and sick, older peoples constant needs? Personally, fast food does nothing for me - so if these places go away, or someone else has to pay $12 for a crappy hamburger... maybe some people will start to see the value in planning meals and cooking for their families? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAS Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Fast food is borderline pointless anyways since the quality is so low and the price is pretty much the same as going to a real restaurant anyways. Especially where I live, we have amazing BBQ that is everywhere and always cheaper and faster than McDonald's and Burger King. If the $15 an hour thing goes through we're going to see massive personnel cuts that will take the fast part out plus increased costs. People just need to view it for what it is, an opportunity. You can't make a career out of your first job. That just isn't how things work on planet earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zooma Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Personal responsibility goes a long way too. People shouldn't have kids until AFTER they can provide for them with a stable family situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmie ray Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 O.K. so now what type of job will a young person with limited skills or little education, suddenly stuck with kids, find more appealing? This is what I find B.S. with the unemployment statistics in the last few years - some like to brag that unemployment numbers are low, but the fast food industry is one of the few booming in the U.S., creating jobs that are no better than welfare. Meanwhile, fewer want to take the path of learning, paying their dues, and someday holding a job that could support a family and actually might be of some importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 O.K. so now what type of job will a young person with limited skills or little education, suddenly stuck with kids, find more appealing? This is what I find B.S. with the unemployment statistics in the last few years - some like to brag that unemployment numbers are low, but the fast food industry is one of the few booming in the U.S., creating jobs that are no better than welfare. Meanwhile, fewer want to take the path of learning, paying their dues, and someday holding a job that could support a family and actually might be of some importance. True, Jimmie Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 The minimum wage in 1970 was $1.45 per hour. That rate adjusted for inflation and kept the same would be $10.74 per hour today. So, just to keep a $1.45 per hour minimum wage adjusted over time to $10.74 people would still bitch and moan it is too much, but no employer was bitching about paying 16 year old kids $1.45 per hour in 1970. Then you have to consider in 1970 the vast majority of those minimum wage earners were under 18 years old and living with mom & dad so the cash was pretty much fun money. Today, many people between the ages of 18 & 30 are working these jobs and trying to support a family, the reason being almost all of the factory jobs the US used to have have gone overseas so all those people who would have high paying factory jobs now have to live on minimum wage jobs because they are unskilled. This is why the push for $15 per hour. It is simply $3.26 over what the adjusted minimum wage would be, or, to put that in 1970 dollars, the minimum wage would be about $1.80 per hour to equal $15 in 2015 cash. But I guess paying people a decent wage is a bridge too far because after all, the corporations have to make an above massive profit or what is the point right? I just love it when the average Joe makes decisions against their own interest based on some bullshit dream which will most likely never happen to them pushed by the media and the politicians. Sorry to inform everyone but the likelihood of anyone on this forum becoming a CEO of a Fortune 500 corp and having to deal with explaining to the shareholders how a $15 minimum wage will reduce their return by some infinitesimal percentage is never going to happen. Instead of dreaming of millions, wake up and realize just making it to the upper middle class is about as high as 99.999% will ever hope to achieve short of wining the lottery, thus, quit sucking up to the corporate elite and start looking after your own reality and interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 O.K. so now what type of job will a young person with limited skills or little education, suddenly stuck with kids, find more appealing? This is what I find B.S. with the unemployment statistics in the last few years - some like to brag that unemployment numbers are low, but the fast food industry is one of the few booming in the U.S., creating jobs that are no better than welfare. Meanwhile, fewer want to take the path of learning, paying their dues, and someday holding a job that could support a family and actually might be of some importance. Your logic is flawed and this is why. A bachelors degree averages around $50,000 at an average state university. Student loans interest rates are between 3 & 8% and are not predicated on credit history. Most decent jobs require a masters level or better so add on an additional $40,000 - $65,000 depending on the program and grants are not available to masters level programs or higher. So, you get your masters, are say $100,000 in debt at 5% on average and luck as hell if you score a $50,000 per year job since you have little to no experience. It does not take a genius to do the math there and of course there is that real kick in the dick, the Law of Scarcity, so, the more people with degrees will necessitate a demand for even more advanced degreed applicants, or drive down wages due to the influx into the marketplace of every Joe Shmoe with a degree. This is the crux of the problem. Education costs WAY too much and even the good jobs don't pay for shit. Plus, all those middle class manufacturing jobs are now overseas. The problem is not with minimum wage or lazy people, the problem is lack of corporate regulation due to the politicians being bought off has pushed all domestic labor to foreign markets where pesky environmental laws, labor laws, and export laws don't exist. Of course none of us (me included) rarely take this into consideration when buying our new iPhone or whatever. We are all immersed in a collective cognitive dissonance in this country whereby as long as we do not see the atrocities being committed (child labor, locking workers in unsafe buildings, working them for 16 hours per day, and paying them pennies while working in horrible conditions), we simply go along our merry way, happy our new gadgets don't cost $2,000 because they are all built overseas. Meanwhile the real cost is watching our neighbors, friends, and families suffering since all those middle class, good paying manufacturing jobs are long gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmie ray Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 ^ I'm not sucking up to anyone, and stated that I could care less about any of these fast food places going out of business. I've worked for $3 an hour unloading banana trucks, and later $5 an hour installing a/c in 140* F attics. It didn't take me long to figure out I had to strive for making myself better. My point, as you always find convenient to miss, is that there are many other low paying positions that people actually have to speak English, learn skills and responsibility, do more than stand in one spot and flip, etc... where is the concern over what they're entitled to? And what's the incentive for them to? Now go cry over how I'm a looney again, traitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 ^ I'm not sucking up to anyone, and stated that I could care less about any of these fast food places going out of business. I've worked for $3 an hour unloading banana trucks, and later $5 an hour installing a/c in 140* F attics. It didn't take me long to figure out I had to strive for making myself better. My point, as you always find convenient to miss, is that there are many other low paying positions that people actually have to speak English, learn skills and responsibility, do more than stand in one spot and flip, etc... where is the concern over what they're entitled to? And what's the incentive for them to? Now go cry over how I'm a looney again, traitor. Why am I am traitor? Also, a rising tide raises all ships and I would think while you were busting your ass in 140 degree attics, you would have preferred $15 per hour to $5 per hour...or am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmie ray Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 ^ I don't know, or maybe I do? Maybe I just felt like trying some personal attacks for once. Why am I always a looney, in our last couple of discussions? What I would have preferred, and how the world actually works, is two different things. I don't cry over it, I figure it out and soldier on. My hardly significant 2 year degree cost me a whopping $850 a semester, which I paid for with part time jobs while paying board at home. But at least I learned and strived to get work in fields that would compliment my education. You just want to keep blaming a system that will always be what it is, regardless of who gets up on a platform makes flowery speeches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 ^ I don't know, or maybe I do? Maybe I just felt like trying some personal attacks for once. Why am I always a looney, in our last couple of discussions? What I would have preferred, and how the world actually works, is two different things. I don't cry over it, I figure it out and soldier on. My hardly significant 2 year degree cost me a whopping $850 a semester, which I paid for with part time jobs while paying board at home. But at least I learned and strived to get work in fields that would compliment my education. You just want to keep blaming a system that will always be what it is, regardless of who gets up on a platform makes flowery speeches. Hey man, if I offended you I apologize but I just re-read my post and nowhere did I call you a looney or call you out in any way personally so I don't know where the looney thing is coming from. I know change is difficult but just accepting things as they are, at least for me, is a defeatist attitude. Many times over the centuries most have felt exactly as you do, that is the powers that be cant be toppled so best to deal with it the best you can. History has proven even a small cabal of people can in fact affect significant change. Do you think most of the people thought the nobles in 1215 could check the power of King John? Well, they did. Or how about Ghengis Khan, dude grew up an outcast from his tribe, running like hell from village to village for 20 years before he decided fuck this and changed the world. More recently the American Revolution and the Cuban Revolution. Believe me, no one in 1959 thought Guevera & Castro had a chance in hell against Batista and the American mob but they took over (this was not good as it replaced one form of tyranny with another btw). This goes to show we can in fact affect change and the more power these clowns believe they have they greater the hubris and over-estimation of their power and abilities. Look at it this way, Waterloo should have been a slam dunk victory for Napoleon, he outnumbered the British and Prussians and he had the high ground and strategic advantage but Wellington kicked his ass because Napoleon under-estimated Wellington and refused to believe Blucher was as close as he was with the Prussian Army...plus he was stuck in his tent with the shits and had to leave the battle to his subordinates. Sometimes history can be changed by the most unlikely of events and over confidence is always first on the list.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIVIN Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 This whole raise the minimum wage mantra is just another gimmie-gimmie and all about herding votes. I read where they are planning to have the minimum wage in Los Angeles up around $15 within the city limits. Thing about that is all it will do is drive jobs out of the city and into other parts of the county. So that means if you are some hard working small business owner maybe trying to run a diner or something you are now at a huge disadvantage over the same places outside the city limits. So now you gotta raise prices (not really appreciated by customers), or just make less profit--- or go out of business. So how does that help jobs? Going out of business or laying off people to cover labor costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmie ray Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 This topic could expand into a lot of aspects of politics, economy, foreign trade, etc... My original thought was about labor or assistance positions that cannot be outsourced overseas. I'm not even sure about people driving too far outside their city or town, just to get cheaper eats - if we're just talking fast food. I just want to know why fast food workers are getting so much attention? And Yip man, I assume the USA is and will always in my lifetime be a Capitalist country. There are no kings, warlords, or dictators to topple. We can vote, but it is generally the same concept that a small percentage will always reap hundreds of times the wealth of the majority - whether through good fortune, sleaze tactics, or just plain hard work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles J. White Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I just love it when the average Joe makes decisions against their own interest based on some bullshit dream which will most likely never happen to them pushed by the media and the politicians. Sorry to inform everyone but the likelihood of anyone on this forum becoming a CEO of a Fortune 500 corp and having to deal with explaining to the shareholders how a $15 minimum wage will reduce their return by some infinitesimal percentage is never going to happen. Instead of dreaming of millions, wake up and realize just making it to the upper middle class is about as high as 99.999% will ever hope to achieve short of wining the lottery, thus, quit sucking up to the corporate elite and start looking after your own reality and interest. You understand the median income in Fort Mack Alberta according to stats Canada is around $178,000 a year right? We don't need you telling us who should or shouldn't "suck up" to the corporate elite. And there are some Cabinet Ministers in the Canadian government and American members of the House of Reps who take part in this forum. And there are some people who are members of boards for some of these companies you speak of who are in charge of entire sales teams who take great pleasure being members of this site. But I do agree, money is not everything in life, having money doesn't make one happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 You understand the median income in Fort Mack Alberta according to stats Canada is around $178,000 a year right? We don't need you telling us who should or shouldn't "suck up" to the corporate elite. And there are some Cabinet Ministers in the Canadian government and American members of the House of Reps who take part in this forum. And there are some people who are members of boards for some of these companies you speak of who are in charge of entire sales teams who take great pleasure being members of this site. But I do agree, money is not everything in life, having money doesn't make one happy. That really has no bearing on what I posted, though your last sentence was good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Duck Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 ... I just want to know why fast food workers are getting so much attention? Maybe it's part of a long-term strategy. Start with fast food workers, succeed in raising their minimum wage and hopefully put pressure on other low wage industries to raise their salaries since they will be competing with fast food restaurants for employees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmie ray Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 ^ There's some logic to that, but you're talking about a long time period, and a shift in the importance of some education and work ethic. Why not boost the trades and assistants positions, where the long time period has hope of paying off - for those who strive? They could just as well boost Welfare, and let that be the competition - but come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagefan55 Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 You understand the median income in Fort Mack Alberta according to stats Canada is around $178,000 a year right? We don't need you telling us who should or shouldn't "suck up" to the corporate elite. And there are some Cabinet Ministers in the Canadian government and American members of the House of Reps who take part in this forum. And there are some people who are members of boards for some of these companies you speak of who are in charge of entire sales teams who take great pleasure being members of this site. But I do agree, money is not everything in life, having money doesn't make one happy. You're right, Charles. There seems to be a perception among many people that most/all Led Zeppelin fans are poor, low rent, sleazy folk. This is not true. I have known many Led Zep fans who were very well-heeled and higher class. One example: I once had a long conversation with the son of an American billionaire (his father is in the Forbes 400) who told me that he loved Zep and frequently visited this forum! In fact, he mentioned that he had posted on this forum several times! The perception that most Led Zep fans are poor and déclassé is both untrue and annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 You're right, Charles. There seems to be a perception among many people that most/all Led Zeppelin fans are poor, low rent, sleazy folk. This is not true. I have known many Led Zep fans who were very well-heeled and higher class. One example: I once had a long conversation with the son of an American billionaire (his father is in the Forbes 400) who told me that he loved Zep and frequently visited this forum! In fact, he mentioned that he had posted on this forum several times! The perception that most Led Zep fans are poor and déclassé is both untrue and annoying. Bravo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2bitnogoodjive Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 The perception that most Led Zep fans are poor and déclassé is both untrue and annoying. Poor? Sure hope not or else they are going broke buying all the Super Deluxe box sets coming out recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Duck Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 ^ There's some logic to that, but you're talking about a long time period, and a shift in the importance of some education and work ethic. Why not boost the trades and assistants positions, where the long time period has hope of paying off - for those who strive? They could just as well boost Welfare, and let that be the competition - but come on. I'm all for more vocational training and apprenticeship programs for young Americans who don't want to attend college. However, you would still need people to work at fast food restaurants, stock shelves at Walmart or clean hotel rooms; all low wage jobs. You implied that the people who have these types of jobs lack a good work ethic. On the contrary, doing these jobs well the majority of the time, requires a very strong work ethic since they're mind numbingly boring and don't pay well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIVIN Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Maybe it's part of a long-term strategy. Start with fast food workers, succeed in raising their minimum wage and hopefully put pressure on other low wage industries to raise their salaries since they will be competing with fast food restaurants for employees. The market is supposed to set the price on goods and LABOR. As soon as you start setting prices you screw up the whole thing. To me the very worst part of putting these folks on salaries which earn $15 is that it isn't even full time work so they still aren't well off. Call it part of "the soft bigotry of low expectations". It's like welfare and food stamps; you make people who should be inspired to do better just settle for the minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 You're right, Charles. There seems to be a perception among many people that most/all Led Zeppelin fans are poor, low rent, sleazy folk. This is not true. I have known many Led Zep fans who were very well-heeled and higher class. One example: I once had a long conversation with the son of an American billionaire (his father is in the Forbes 400) who told me that he loved Zep and frequently visited this forum! In fact, he mentioned that he had posted on this forum several times! The perception that most Led Zep fans are poor and déclassé is both untrue and annoying. Strange, I have never heard such a position from anyone much less noticed a perception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 The market is supposed to set the price on goods and LABOR. As soon as you start setting prices you screw up the whole thing. To me the very worst part of putting these folks on salaries which earn $15 is that it isn't even full time work so they still aren't well off. Call it part of "the soft bigotry of low expectations". It's like welfare and food stamps; you make people who should be inspired to do better just settle for the minimum. That works both ways LIVIN, the market is supposed to set prices for goods, not the corporate monopolies but yet that is exactly what has happened, yet I hear no outcry about that which is a much, much bigger problem. Five corporations currently control all of American media, about four control the banking industry, three control the grocery chains, and only five (I believe) control all hospitals and health care in general. This is what Theodore Roosevelt busted his ass to prevent through his trust busting, yet 110 years later and we are back to the 1890's where everything is pretty much a monopoly and the corporations have completely rigged the system. If you think what we have in America now is capitalism, you are way, way off. If you look up the definitions of both capitalism & fascism you will find we are much closer to the later than the former, just instead of the government supporting corporations we have corporations which have completely taken over and control our government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the chase Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Strange, I have never heard such a position from anyone much less noticed a perception.you and me both. They are arguably the 2nd biggest band of all time. Their fanbase is as diverse as anybody's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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