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apantherfrommd

New Soundboard - March 3, 1975 Fort Worth

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 why thank you so much panther :-)  I have bought my fair share over the years. .as I'm sure you have to do they have a date when this is coming out?

I would guess between the 16th and 19th, but I like nick's optimism. :thumbsup:

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It came from former Showco employees 

Do you know this for certain or is it just Royal Orleans.com style conjecture?

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Over the years a few books have been published that spilled the beans how the sausage is really made.  They are out of print, but can be bought used on Amazon

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I would guess between the 16th and 19th, but I like nick's optimism. :thumbsup:

This was posted by Walter on the 'Any new soundboards coming' thread, on page 2.

Screenshot_2015-11-10-11-51-33.png

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So I am just curious....where do you think this soundboard came from?  It just seems a little odd that someone must have held onto this for 40 years and chose NOW to hand it off to someone.  Obviously it didn't come from any band members (or the possibility of that is extremely tiny, I would imagine).

Nobody knows where they come from. People will chime in and say that Empress Valley "bought" these tapes, but my money has always been on the soundboards coming directly from Page via a middleman, as a way of keeping the diehard fanbase happy, off the books. 

Just look at the timeline. EV have been releasing soundboards for 13 years now, starting with Flying Circus. That release just happened to come out during the exact time when Kevin Shirley was busy transferring all of the band's old tapes to digital in prep for the 2003 DVD release.  And notice that every one of the EV soundboards that have been released since have been extremely "clean" in the audio. Apart from some questionable EQ, these are clearly not high gen, worn out trader tapes that were sitting in a box for 30-40 years. 

These recordings are not coming from just some random connection, and I really don't think that it's realistic that former Showco employees have anything to do with the EV boards.  Could there be one-off boards that were taken by former employees? Sure.  But Showco employed roadies, light technicians, and sound engineers to work for them for only months at a time. These were not lifetime employees, and these guys would be in their 60s by now. Think about that. I really don't see some random tech holding on to boxes of reels for decades, and then trickling them out over 13 years all the way into old age. The tapes that were made of these tours were given to the band, and both Page and Bonham were known to listen to them for reference. So, if these tapes were coming from anybody now, then Page or Jason Bonham would be the most obvious answer, imo.

 

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I've always though that this phenomenon would make for a great movie/documentary. Starting with the first boot by Dylan (white wonder) or something similar and ending where? It's clearly not going away and I like that! 

I mostly collect Zeppelin shows, are there any other legendary boots by other artists on par with a Blueberry Hill or Earls Court, etc?  

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@Pluribus

What about the theory that they were stolen from Page's house?  It seems clear that whoever has these tapes has a specific block of dates, namely February 12th through March 20th (similarly for the '77 boards), suggesting someone grabbed a block of tapes that were arranged in chronological order and ran.  This would of course explain why there are no boards from January '75 (and why statistically it is highly unlikely that there are any).

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Not just Showco employees, but they turned a blind eye and let people tap into the network or took money..etc.   I've read lots of different stories like that with other bands.   There was no internet back then really except for Usenet, Prodigy..etc, and you had that stuff was expensive.   The other things back then were long distance MCI calling cards, and the back of music magazines... all the personal ad's and make new penpals , trading tapes and getting into circles.

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@Pluribus

What about the theory that they were stolen from Page's house?  It seems clear that whoever has these tapes has a specific block of dates, namely February 12th through March 20th (similarly for the '77 boards), suggesting someone grabbed a block of tapes that were arranged in chronological order and ran.  This would of course explain why there are no boards from January '75 (and why statistically it is highly unlikely that there are any).

The stolen soundboards were primarily the 1980 Euro tour shows, weren't they? And those came out 10-15 years before Flying Circus appeared, alongside other random soundboard fragments that surfaced during the late 80s - early 90s. Besides the fact that EV didn't exist back then, I don't think the EV boards (1975 shows, Orlando 1971, 1977 shows) have anything to do with the tapes that were stolen from Page's house. Again, the sound quality is markedly different, and so many years had already passed between the appearance of those 1980 soundboards and the first EV soundboard.

As for what Empress Valley has left in their stash...again, no one knows. Lots of people have sworn "it's over" after each release, going back 10 years now, and just as many more people have sworn that they could predict what the next board will be, or what the range of shows that EV have access to is. And yet, no one is ever right, and EV keeps releasing new soundboards every year. The release rate does not suggest a source who is just patiently sitting around for a decade while EV drums up enough cash to purchase boards one by one. All of this talk about soundboards costing $$$$ on some trader's market and EV having to sell enough of their other titles each year to generate the cash to buy the next one just doesn't make sense. I think it's far more likely that EV started as yet another bootleg label, released decent upgrades of familiar shows, and it wasn't long before they got Page's attention. The relationship of using them as the means to funnel out soundboards followed from there. In between soundboards, they reissue their own titles, and put out releases of existing audience sources that they've EQ'd.

I think the reason why we've yet to hear a January 1975 board is because those shows are the lowest on the totem pole, plain and simple. Plant's voice was in terrible shape, Page had a broken finger, and the playing wasn't so hot from show to show. As much as we'd probably love to hear the first date of the 1975 tour, or one of the shows with Levee, those shows would be a difficult sell, and a soundboard would make all of those imperfections even more obvious, just like what happened when Seattle 77 was released in full. This is why it makes sense that the LA shows, the second Long Beach show, and the second Seattle show are still to be released. I'd like to think that this Fort Worth show, and shows like Philadelphia are being held back for the same reason. For the ones we've heard audience sources of, these remaining ones are among the best shows of the tour, so why wouldn't those boards be among the last in the release sequence. It's no doubt that Page is well aware of the significance of those performances. I also think it's why the whole series of soundboards was kicked off with a "big" show like Flying Circus. 

Just my completely baseless opinion here. 

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^^^

I could read stuff like that all night. 

What I'd like to know is who controls the flow: the source(s), or the producers (i.e., EV)? Either might be tempted to flood the market with all they had, but trickling things out one or two a year seems like a great way to keep prices up. The ol' supply and demand I guess. 

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I was not at all surprised to see this Fort Worth show released, although I actually thought it would be the Houston show.  It seems pretty clear that, in addition to Houston, the first night in San Diego and the second night in Long Beach exist (as boards).  Big question obviously is whether the second night in Seattle also exists. 

The pattern of these releases is fairly random, which statistically argues against the owner having any January shows.  It's just implausible that, 13 years in, there are no January shows and only 3 February shows.  If this was a bone tossed to fans, you'd have to think at least one LA show would have been released by now.  The same reason why only 1 NY show from 77, the first night, has come to light:  it's chronologically at the end of a block of pilfered tapes.  Given that we know Page is a huge perfectionist, hard to see why he'd release a dog like the second night in San Diego, or not release the first night from NY 73, if he was trying to assuage hard-core fans. 

Whether by theft or some other means, it looks to me like the owner of these tapes has a specific chronological block, and not the whole set. 

 

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Also, the last three NY area shows from 75 are all better than Philadelphia (although this is an excellent '75 show), and much more famous.  As is clear from various comments on this board, there would be huge interest in a January '75 show, for novelty reasons alone.  I don't see any strategic reason for holding such shows back, or not releasing at least one LA show by now.  And why release the first night from Long Beach, which already exists in near soundboard quality?  I think the reason is simple:  whoever is releasing these tapes, doesn't have the ones in question (i.e. outside of Feb 12 to Mar 20).

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It's interesting, all different observations.   What about that guy with truck full of thousands of boots in Scotland ?  He did serve some time in jail, but seems doubtful he gave up on Zeppelin.  What kind of connections did that guy have ? 

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Also, the last three NY area shows from 75 are all better than Philadelphia (although this is an excellent '75 show), and much more famous.  As is clear from various comments on this board, there would be huge interest in a January '75 show, for novelty reasons alone.  I don't see any strategic reason for holding such shows back, or not releasing at least one LA show by now.  And why release the first night from Long Beach, which already exists in near soundboard quality?  I think the reason is simple:  whoever is releasing these tapes, doesn't have the ones in question (i.e. outside of Feb 12 to Mar 20).

But why does there "have" to be a sequence or date range here? The releases have all been random. There could be any number of reasons why certain blocks of shows haven't been released. Maybe a show was missed by the crew, or the tapes were damaged for a particular show. Just because there hasn't been a release of a show from a particular month/week doesn't mean that those recordings won't eventually be released, or that EV doesn't have access to those either. Likewise, the February and March shows that have been released may just mean that the person doing the providing thinks that those shows should be released first. There really could be no rhyme or reason here. There really aren't that many 1975 shows even left.  As for why some shows are coming out vs others, remember that the second San Diego show was a pretty big deal, just like the second Dallas show was, because those were both disputed dates

And look at the Orlando 1971 soundboard. Nothing else from 1971 has been released. Could it be that the band didn't tape their shows every night? Or could it instead be that Page or someone else was going through tapes and thought "Hey, this show deserves to be heard". Or maybe those years really are more valuable a la "here's a GREAT one from 1971...don't expect any more of these anytime soon". We really don't know. 

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It's interesting, all different observations.   What about that guy with truck full of thousands of boots in Scotland ?  He did serve some time in jail, but seems doubtful he gave up on Zeppelin.  What kind of connections did that guy have ? 

Are you talking about the court case? I don't know what happened to him, but if you look up the transcript that someone had written up from his trial (which often gets quoted for Page's comments about bootlegs) you'll find some interesting bits that the defense said regarding Page's relationship with Ross Halfin (that photographer who he hangs out with all the time), accusing him of being a "conduit" for Page, to take things to the bootleg labels in Japan for him.  There's even an admission from Page himself that he had met Eric Sachs in Japan at least "once or twice". I mean, come on...

http://www.bootlegzone.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11600

 

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Does EV have any actual Japan shows that are different than other labels ?

Their last release of the 9/28/71 show featured fragments of an unheard soundboard recording. Which pretty much nobody seemed to notice.

All of their other soundboards (the 75 and 77 ones) have been exclusively released by them. They release the shows first, and then the other labels copy them.

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I have to re-read that whole story, never really heard any followup, but it's funny how much contradiction is all twisted in that story, and years to follow you see several different pictures of Page in Japan with arm fulls of Zep boots and big smile on his face..haha

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^^^

I could read stuff like that all night. 

Agreed, very interesting discussion. 

Their last release of the 9/28/71 show featured fragments of an unheard soundboard recording. Which pretty much nobody seemed to notice.

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The "pattern" makes sense from the business perspective of a bootleg market.  Essentially, you have only a small number of customers, but those customers are willing to pay A LOT because they are die-hard fans, and there is literally no other source of what they are looking for. 

Knowing this, to maximize profit, it makes sense for a label with new content to put out only a show or two a year.  More than that, and they'd have to lower the price for each release or it would simply become too much for their customers to pay.  As for the order, all it is is them making variety when possible (by alternating from year to year) while still saving the best for last (starting with good stuff makes the bad stuff a much harder sell later on.)

Everything EV does makes sense from a business perspective if you assume they bought something like 25 shows around 15 years ago.  They are trickling them out in order of quality, switching up years to keep things interesting.

So not only can we count on the releases from EV to increase in quality as time goes on, but we can also be almost 100% sure that they WILL advertise their last release when it comes.  The idea that this is Jimmy Page is pretty far-fetched in my opinion.  Page is obsessed with sound quality and has spoken out against bootleggers in court...it makes no sense for him to then support some specific bootleg label with exclusive releases that has some reputation with messing up the sound.

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The idea that this is Jimmy Page is pretty far-fetched in my opinion.  Page is obsessed with sound quality and has spoken out against bootleggers in court...it makes no sense for him to then support some specific bootleg label with exclusive releases that has some reputation with messing up the sound.

While certainly possible that Jimmy is the ultimate source, I don't think it the likeliest option. 

But, his obsession with quality could in fact help to explain why it could be him. He certainly wouldn't consider these recordings to be "good enough" for commercial release (nevermind his desire for multitracks). But he may nevertheless want to share them with fans unofficially, as it were. 

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Over the years, it's been put forth that pretty much other than the cache of 1980 shows stolen from Page back in the eighties -which still doesn't explain what happened to the Munich and Vienna soundboards, by the way- the most likely suspects as to where these soundboards tapes come from is probably somebody from Showco. I'd be inclined to agree. I mean, we'll never know for sure but not only do I think EV gets the tapes from them but it's also an ongoing thing- I don't think it was necessarily a matter of EVSD buying a bunch of soundboards at once and releasing them over time, they probably did, but probably still recieve 'new' stuff from time to time as well.

It's not Page. Not if he has to buy the fucking bootlegs himself (if he even has to pay for 'em) in Japan. Maybe Jimmy should join a torrent site or something- wouldn't that be ironic? :lol:

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Keep in mind too that the cost of producing these titles, and the risks involved mean that nobody is really getting rich here. The packaging on some of these titles is way over the top. 

And if EV really are having to pay for each soundboard, that cuts into profit even more. Add in that packaging, the pressing, the shipping, the retailers, and the manpower/oversight required to keep it all running. Somebody has to be paying rent somewhere for this.

Page's public stance on bootlegs  simply doesn't match with the photos of him in Japan, and the shots of him in It Might Get Loud, where you can see all of the bootlegs he owns sitting on the shelves behind him.

If the Ross Halfin story is true, then it really isn't a stretch to imagine a similar arrangement with EV.  Considering the work that EV has to put into these releases, I could even imagine them not having to pay for these boards at all. 

The benefit for Page is that he gets to have these boards out there, preserved for posterity via these releases, doesn't have to get involved himself, and gets to keep Zeppelin front and center in the underground market.  

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But how do we KNOW FOR CERTAIN they were or were not played THAT PARTICULAR NIGHT? Only people who went to that performance would know. An article reviewing the show in a San Diego paper said "the encore was Heartbreaker", no mention of WLL.

I definitely don't claim to know for certain, just pointing to the setlist on the timeline.  If it wasn't played, it would have likely been the only show in 1975 in which it wasn't.  That's an interesting point about the article in the SD paper.  iirc the show (I haven't listened to it lately) isn't that inspired...maybe after they knocked off Stairway, they just said "let's just give them HB and get out of here".  

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