The price for"borrowing"

[Bozoso73]

 In Phoenix we have a radio station that plays three Led Zeppelin songs at 7 o'clock every night.  After the last song last night the DJ said something to the effect that the boys have paid more and dearly for the songs they borrowed from in and out of courts then if they would have just given credit from the beginning.   Does anybody know the price they've had to pay and settlement out of court?   Obviously these numbers are undisclosed but I'm just curious if anybody knows how much they paid. .

[Dirty Work]

Thats just like his opinion, man. Zeppelin made otherwise unknown songs into classics, even topping the charts with them. Not to mention that the average person probably couldn't pick up the similarities, even if played both tracks back to back. I've found throughout my Zeppelin addiction, people use that as just a conversation starter, because they love Led Zeppelin too. Fair enough. 

 

How many people would know of Jake Holmes without Led Zeppelin? I doubt many 26 year olds like myself remember his Pan Am jingle. 

[Bozoso73]

  I understand what you're saying but had they simply paid at the beginning and credited those who they borrowed from they wouldn't have needed lawyers for court appearances and paid out lots more in out of court  settlements later on. . all that aside I just simply want to know what they've paid to the Willie Dixon Estate et al. If anybody has that information

[Dirty Work]

Yeah, but I'm sure even Jimmy Page himself didn't expect to become THAT famous. If I were Jake Holmes, I'd be honored to be mentioned as the inspiration for Dazed all these years later. But thats just my opinion. 

[Bozoso73]

Agreed. But it wasn't just Jake holmes there were many unfortunately…and of course they're the greatest group of all time and made hundreds of millions of dollars so with that being said the price becomes steep. . The estate for Randy California is coming after Led Zeppelin for stairway to heaven and they're asking for a grip of money stating that stairway has made the band hundreds of millions of dollars… I know the estate for Willie Dixon settled out of court with Led Zeppelin and I would just like to know what the price was for "borrowing "

[Dirty Work]

There is a law (I think) that defines the difference between borrowing and stealing, although I'm not familiar with it, or to what it applies and where. Perhaps somebody here knows the answer. All I remember is that there are a certain amount of consecutive notes (7 i believe?) that is the limit on how much you can borrow. Any more and its stealing. I'm no lawyer though so you might want to fact check me on that one.  Good topic. I've seen hundreds of topics about this, but not many about the price itself.

[Bozoso73]

Thanks dirty… It seems to me they were obvious cases bring it on home dazed and confused etc. etc. but then I hear Randy California's estate is looking for hundreds of millions of dollars because of the popularity of STH. . And if you're seven notes thing is true I wonder what the judge will say about something like that… Of course we all know we're talking about the first few bars of stairway and the similarities but I just don't see I judge awarding anybody hundreds of millions of dollars for similarities…

[Disco Duck]

Thats just like his opinion, man. Zeppelin made otherwise unknown songs into classics, even topping the charts with them. Not to mention that the average person probably couldn't pick up the similarities, even if played both tracks back to back. I've found throughout my Zeppelin addiction, people use that as just a conversation starter, because they love Led Zeppelin too. Fair enough. 

 

How many people would know of Jake Holmes without Led Zeppelin? I doubt many 26 year olds like myself remember his Pan Am jingle. 

I agree with the DJ.  Copyright matters; it's how people protect the things they create from being infringed upon by others.  I also think that if the band had given the original artists credit their critics may have been better able to appreciate their innovative  re-shaping of old blues and folk songs.  There is an honorable tradition in Western classical music of taking another composer's composition and running with it.  Brahms' Variations on a Theme of Paganini, Opus 35 is a is a famous example.    You could argue that Zep did for the old blues and folk songs what Brahms did for Paganini's Caprice.  Their re-shaping and expanding of these older songs was amazing.  

The Yardbirds performed Dazed and Confused during Jimmy Page's tenure with that group so it wasn't an exactly an obscure song when Zep recorded it in 1969.

[NealR2000]

The amounts in these cases are rarely known to the public, and are sealed.  Most of the time, the amounts are of the settlement variety, which gives the party being sued the ability to insist upon confidentiality.  The music industry is rampant with this kind of stuff, and in typical lawyer fashion, the targets are the deepest pockets (i.e. those artists that have been highly successful).  A lot of these cases don't even become public knowledge.  

In my opinion, music, unlike any other product, is the most susceptible to "copying", be it deliberate, unintentional, or imagined.  All musicians and songwriters are inspired by the music that the have heard.  As for Zep, yes, they appear to have stretched the limits of inspiration once or twice, and I'm sure had they known at the time that they would one day become the biggest band in the world, would probably have made a greater effort to have their lawyers look into the issue of assigning credits.   

[KellyGirl]

I'm not going to defend Led Zeppelin on the whole song writing credit issues. I'll leave that to
their attorney

But I often wonder if the Randy's, Jakes, and Willy's out there would care if a no name lame group
had borrowed 3 bars or 3 chords that sounded similar to a song they had written? What if Led
Zeppelin didn't become THE quintessential rock band of the 70's? Would they be fighting so hard
for piece of the pie if the song had no $$$ value and had no iconic status? Most of these musicians 
nobody would speak their names if it was not attached to Led Zeppelin. I think had Stairway not
became so world-renowned who knows if Randy's estate would be gunning so much. Like NealR2000
says it's huge bands they go after. Nobody goes after Blah Blah No Name with an opening that sounds
similar to something you wrote - especially a song that has made zero amount of money.
 


 

[Disco Duck]

I'm not going to defend Led Zeppelin on the whole song writing credit issues. I'll leave that to
their attorney

But I often wonder if the Randy's, Jakes, and Willy's out there would care if a no name lame group
had borrowed 3 bars or 3 chords that sounded similar to a song they had written? What if Led
Zeppelin didn't become THE quintessential rock band of the 70's? Would they be fighting so hard
for piece of the pie if the song had no $$$ value and had no iconic status? Most of these musicians 
nobody would speak their names if it was not attached to Led Zeppelin. I think had Stairway not
became so world-renowned who knows if Randy's estate would be gunning so much. Like NealR2000
says it's huge bands they go after. Nobody goes after Blah Blah No Name with an opening that sounds
similar to something you wrote - especially a song that has made zero amount of money.
 


 

I don't think it's all one way.  From what I've read, bands with deep pockets will and do go after small time musicians if they feel the latter have infringed upon their copyright or brand.  

[KellyGirl]

Oh I don't doubt that at all Disco. Speaking of brand, is Jimmy's Zoso 
symbol protected? Would he care if it was being used elsewhere ..
Does he even have any say on it? I have only ever seen it associated
with Jimmy or L Z so it makes me wonder.  

[badgeholder]

Oh I don't doubt that at all Disco. Speaking of brand, is Jimmy's Zoso 
symbol protected? Would he care if it was being used elsewhere ..
Does he even have any say on it? I have only ever seen it associated
with Jimmy or L Z so it makes me wonder.  

Jimmy stole that also 

[SteveAJones]

is Jimmy's Zoso symbol protected? Would he care if it was being used elsewhere ..
Does he even have any say on it? I have only ever seen it associated
with Jimmy or L Z so it makes me wonder.  

Hope you're sitting down. It's a sigil, not a symbol, and though it's associated with Jimmy Page it isn't actually "his".

It's the sigil for Saturn from page 51 of an 1850 reprint of a 1521 French book Dragon Rouge and Poulet Noire (The Red Dragon and The Black Hen); also published on page 31 of Frinellan's 1844 book Le Triple Vocabulaire Infernal Manuel du Demonomane. A variation of it also appears in Jerome Cardan's 1557 book De Rerum Varietate (page 789 of a 1580 reprint). 

 

[sk8rat]

the only one I have read about that gave an actual figure was "babe im gonna leave you".

Anne authorized Janet to pursue their case with Zep's publisher Superhype, agreeing to split any proceeds 50/50. Superhype claimed that since Page learned the song from Joan's album—one with no writing credit, leading him to assume it was an old [traditional] song—and that Led Zeppelin's arrangement and recording made the song famous, they should share in the rewards. Eventually things were worked out such that subsequent pressings of Zep's version would list Anne Bredon, Jimmy Page and Robert Plant. (Anne gets 50% of the royalties and Page and Plant split the other half). Interestingly, Baez's recording still/now credits only Anne, although I've also seen it as "Anne H. Bredon (by assignment from Janet Smith)."

http://santafe.com/blogs/read/the-tangled-tale-of-babe-im-gonna-leave-you

joan baez didn't credit the original composer of the song, anne johannson (who now goes by anne H. bredon) until 1964 and according to jimmy page, the copy of the record he heard it on had no writing credit so he assumed it was a traditional arrangement. really, what other option did he have? given the circumstances I would be surprised if they also agreed to pay her for past album sales.

 

[Disco Duck]

the only one I have read about that gave an actual figure was "babe im gonna leave you".

joan baez didn't credit the original composer of the song, anne johannson (who now goes by anne H. bredon) until 1964 and according to jimmy page, the copy of the record he heard it on had no writing credit so he assumed it was a traditional arrangement. really, what other option did he have? given the circumstances I would be surprised if they also agreed to pay her for past album sales.

 

In this instance Page made an honest mistake but I don't know that ignorance is a defense in these law suits.  Would a jury consider it a mitigating factor when it comes time to talk dollars?

[sk8rat]

In this instance Page made an honest mistake but I don't know that ignorance is a defense in these law suits.  Would a jury consider it a mitigating factor when it comes time to talk dollars?

well, I think they could make the point that the original writer of the song has a certain burden or responsibility to make them selves creditable to the song. remember, there wasn't google or anything of the sort back in those days. anne johannson basically had no trace to the song.

I believe they could also make the argument that they did right by labeling the song as traditional.

Traditional folk music has been defined in several ways: as music transmitted orally, or as music with unknown composers. It has been contrasted with commercial and classical styles. One meaning often given is that of old songs, with no known composers; another is music that has been transmitted and evolved by a process of oral transmission or performed by custom over a long period of time.

given the history of how the song came to be I think it was fair to label it "traditional". long story short; the song was first written by anne johannson who then played it during a college radio show where janet smith was in attendance and subsequently heard the song. then joan baez attened a small get together where janet smith played the song and joan baez liked it and later did her own version. jimmy page later heard the version by joan baez and did his own.

also at what point is the song traditional or not? the song began with a bunch of folkies sitting around in a circle singing songs, one person heard it and passed it onto another.

im not saying she has no right to royalties but at some point even if it is rightfully hers she should have taken certain measure to ensure that it was verifiable. 

[babysquid]

 

well, I think they could make the point that the original writer of the song has a certain burden or responsibility to make them selves creditable to the song. remember, there wasn't google or anything of the sort back in those days. anne johannson basically had no trace to the song.

I believe they could also make the argument that they did right by labeling the song as traditional.

given the history of how the song came to be I think it was fair to label it "traditional". long story short; the song was first written by anne johannson who then played it during a college radio show where janet smith was in attendance and subsequently heard the song. then joan baez attened a small get together where janet smith played the song and joan baez liked it and later did her own version. jimmy page later heard the version by joan baez and did his own.

also at what point is the song traditional or not? the song began with a bunch of folkies sitting around in a circle singing songs, one person heard it and passed it onto another.

im not saying she has no right to royalties but at some point even if it is rightfully hers she should have taken certain measure to ensure that it was verifiable. 

it should also be noted that a lot of the music and lyrics are very different. It's like they took Joan Baez version and used it as a spring board.

[babysquid]

I should also say that the copy I have of that album has no songwriter credits and most of the songs on it are traditional.

[Bozoso73]

the only one I have read about that gave an actual figure was "babe im gonna leave you".

joan baez didn't credit the original composer of the song, anne johannson (who now goes by anne H. bredon) until 1964 and according to jimmy page, the copy of the record he heard it on had no writing credit so he assumed it was a traditional arrangement. really, what other option did he have? given the circumstances I would be surprised if they also agreed to pay her for past album sales.

 

thanks sk8rat. .I wonder what the price ended up being? 50%? That's a lot of money…

[KellyGirl]

 

Hope you're sitting down. It's a sigil, not a symbol, and though it's associated with Jimmy Page it isn't actually "his".

It's the sigil for Saturn from page 51 of an 1850 reprint of a 1521 French book Dragon Rouge and Poulet Noire (The Red Dragon and The Black Hen); also published on page 31 of Frinellan's 1844 book Le Triple Vocabulaire Infernal Manuel du Demonomane. A variation of it also appears in Jerome Cardan's 1557 book De Rerum Varietate (page 789 of a 1580 reprint). 

 

Oh wow I didn't expect it to go that far back 1500's.
Yes I see it there under Saturn now.

Thanks for the info Steve A Jones

[brasshat]

There is a law (I think) that defines the difference between borrowing and stealing, although I'm not familiar with it, or to what it applies and where. Perhaps somebody here knows the answer. All I remember is that there are a certain amount of consecutive notes (7 i believe?) that is the limit on how much you can borrow. Any more and its stealing. I'm no lawyer though so you might want to fact check me on that one.  Good topic. I've seen hundreds of topics about this, but not many about the price itself.

I don't know about American law, but in Britain theft is defined as "dishonestly appropriating" somebody else's property with the intention to "permanently deprive" the owner. If the act was done without dishonestly or intention to permanently deprive. It is not regarded as theft.

Now, how that all works with regard to music, I don't know. I guess you cannot steal music but there are laws about copyright etc.

[ledded1]

Zep got it wrong by not crediting others.

They should have credited the original writers, no more complicated than that. Using lines from songs not necessarily gwhole rewoorklings did for them in the long term.They did turn unknown songs into classics but copyright is copyright as they say. Mind you Clapton has lived off Robert Johnson's few songs  for most of his career. Johnson would be very wealthy if he was alive just frrom EC let alone every other blues players.

 

[Daniel]

 

Oh wow I didn't expect it to go that far back 1500's.Yes I see it there under Saturn now.

Thanks for the info Steve A Jones

Hmm, I am kind of, pretty sure, that I wonder if, I'm distantly related to that French dude, Frinellan whose book that Jimmy Page's borrowed sigil can be found in? I could sure use me some of that Led Zeppelin cash, wee hee!

In other news, Walmart lost it's lame attempt to trademark the .

P.S. What, I couldn't sue because it's out of copyright? Ahh shucks.

[TheGreatOne]

Zep got it wrong by not crediting others.

They should have credited the original writers, no more complicated than that.

 

 It's funny when I look at the Bible.  If the same applied, it definitely definitely would not be the same book it is today