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apantherfrommd

World War II

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2 hours ago, IpMan said:

:hysterical:

Oh man Steve, THAT one is priceless. My uncle was a dyed in the wool republican, which was not very popular among his Chicago goomba Goodfellas buddies I will tell you that. The conversations I had with him not only confirm the documentary, but far exceed it in terms of horror. He told me of how they would make the German women & girls beg for food like dogs, give them a little, then piss on the rest and give it to them. They were starving so they ate that right up. My uncle said he never raped anyone, but he did say he made starving girls and women "work" for their food if you get my drift. 

The fact is Steve is this documentary is not bashing any side, that is if you actually listened to it, but was an indictment of the horrors of just about any reconstruction under such circumstance. Human beings are brutal animals when left to their base instincts and this was simply the first time film and detailed photography was available to capture this. Talking about film, as this documentary contains actual footage, how exactly can you call this revisionism? Further, this is not some expose regarding information no one knew, pretty much anyone over the age of 45 knows this as it was taught in school, or at least everyone I have known, both right and left know this. Where have you been? The horrors of reconstruction were documented by such ardent left-wingers as Gen. Marshall himself, Gen. Patton, Gen. Eisenhower, Gen. Bradley, and Gen. Beedle Smith to name just a few.

This is not an American thing or a Soviet thing, it's a HUMAN thing. Just another example of how absolute power combined with a boiling desire for revenge can lead to atrocities and horror, regardless of ones political leanings or attitudes.

Yeah, war is hell...blah blah blah. I get that. I take exception to the simplistic notion that "the victors were just as bad as the Nazis". Granted, that reasoning is right in your wheelhouse ("one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter") but it's too simplistic.

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On 1/15/2018 at 2:55 PM, kipper said:

I saw a documentary and one historian said the greatest result was to bankrupt the British and the french and transfer their wealth and power to other countries. He blamed the imperialism of the UK for most of the conflicts around the world.  not sure if this is correct or not, but he said WW2 could be blamed on England and France for how they treated Germany after WW1.  This guy also said Japan did what they did for the same reason, to protect itself from the european empires that had invaded asia for centuries

Probably true.  One of the biggest mistakes we ever made was entering WW I thanks to that jackass Woodrow Wilson.

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On 15/01/2018 at 7:55 PM, kipper said:

I saw a documentary and one historian said the greatest result was to bankrupt the British and the french and transfer their wealth and power to other countries. He blamed the imperialism of the UK for most of the conflicts around the world.  not sure if this is correct or not, but he said WW2 could be blamed on England and France for how they treated Germany after WW1.  This guy also said Japan did what they did for the same reason, to protect itself from the european empires that had invaded asia for centuries

The greatest result was stopping the Nazis and the Japanese. The Nazis were responsible for the greatest crimes committed, the holocaust, concentration camps, unbelievable atrocities. Bankrupting Britain and France  doesnt even come into it in comparison. Hitler didnt need to invade Poland and eventually Russia but it was his dream to provide more living space and resources for his master race. Don't be sidetracked by the bullshit of an ill informed historian.

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9 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Preposterous. Let me guess, this film is more left-wing revisionism?

Hardly.

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On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 4:55 AM, kipper said:

I saw a documentary and one historian said the greatest result was to bankrupt the British and the french and transfer their wealth and power to other countries. He blamed the imperialism of the UK for most of the conflicts around the world.  not sure if this is correct or not, but he said WW2 could be blamed on England and France for how they treated Germany after WW1.  This guy also said Japan did what they did for the same reason, to protect itself from the european empires that had invaded asia for centuries

Article 231, among others, within the Treaty of Versailles to end WWI was such that it was inevitable that Germany would seek to have another war. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles

 

Japan went to war primarily on account of three factors: fear of outside aggression, growing Japanese nationalism, and the need for natural resources.

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2 hours ago, Victor said:

The greatest result was stopping the Nazis and the Japanese. The Nazis were responsible for the greatest crimes committed, the holocaust, concentration camps, unbelievable atrocities. Bankrupting Britain and France  doesnt even come into it in comparison. Hitler didnt need to invade Poland and eventually Russia but it was his dream to provide more living space and resources for his master race. Don't be sidetracked by the bullshit of an ill informed historian.

Depends how you look at it. The Nazi's industialised killing the Jews. The Social Darwinism extremist ideology Hitler and the Socialist Party followed was only ever going to lead to catastrophe.

Stalin was brutal in his own way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_deaths_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin. He purged all war heroes and generals after the war in fear of losing power. One of the worlds great psycho's.

Japs were the most brutal bar none. Highest kill count per soldier of any country in WW2 (https://infogram.com/kd-ratios-of-wwi-compared-to-wwii-1g6v4m7rzjxk218), and by far the highest civilian count. In Indochina they were killing people they come across on the streets. Their treatment of their enemies civilian populations and soldiers was exceptionally brutal.

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41 minutes ago, rm2551 said:

Depends how you look at it. The Nazi's industialised killing the Jews. The Social Darwinism extremist ideology Hitler and the Socialist Party followed was only ever going to lead to catastrophe.

Stalin was brutal in his own way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_deaths_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin. He purged all war heroes and generals after the war in fear of losing power. One of the worlds great psycho's.

Japs were the most brutal bar none. Highest kill count per soldier of any country in WW2 (https://infogram.com/kd-ratios-of-wwi-compared-to-wwii-1g6v4m7rzjxk218), and by far the highest civilian count. In Indochina they were killing people they come across on the streets. Their treatment of their enemies civilian populations and soldiers was exceptionally brutal.

The infogram stats seem a bit strange...if I'm reading it correctly it says Britain lost just under 5 million? Britain lost less than half a million. Japan looks as if it lost hardly anyone but in reality it was somewhere around 3 million?

Edited by Victor
quote added twice

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2 hours ago, rm2551 said:

Depends how you look at it. The Nazi's industialised killing the Jews. The Social Darwinism extremist ideology Hitler and the Socialist Party followed was only ever going to lead to catastrophe.

Stalin was brutal in his own way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_deaths_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin. He purged all war heroes and generals after the war in fear of losing power. One of the worlds great psycho's.

Japs were the most brutal bar none. Highest kill count per soldier of any country in WW2 (https://infogram.com/kd-ratios-of-wwi-compared-to-wwii-1g6v4m7rzjxk218), and by far the highest civilian count. In Indochina they were killing people they come across on the streets. Their treatment of their enemies civilian populations and soldiers was exceptionally brutal.

The Nazi Party or as it was originally called NSDAP Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or National Socialist German Workers Party was in no way socialist, they were fascist....huge difference. It's kinda how North Korea is called the Democratic People's Republic of Korea yet is anything but democratic.

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6 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Yeah, war is hell...blah blah blah. I get that. I take exception to the simplistic notion that "the victors were just as bad as the Nazis". Granted, that reasoning is right in your wheelhouse ("one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter") but it's too simplistic.

Well gee Steve, please enlighten us to the complicated truth. After all, 12 million displaced Germans of which around 2 million were killed, not to mention the rapes and other atrocities. Yep, too simplistic.

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2 hours ago, Victor said:

 

The infogram stats seem a bit strange...if I'm reading it correctly it says Britain lost just under 5 million? Britain lost less than half a million. Japan looks as if it lost hardly anyone but in reality it was somewhere around 3 million?

Yeah, couldn't find the stats I was looking for. They come from a discussion I have previously seen online. Kills per soldier. Japan left everyone for dead (so to speak). I'm pretty sure it was one of Victor Davis Hanson's Youtube clips exploring WW2.

*Edit - I think its in here.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQq-ORA4fHw&t=8s

 

Edited by rm2551

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3 minutes ago, IpMan said:

The Nazi Party or as it was originally called NSDAP Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or National Socialist German Workers Party was in no way socialist, they were fascist....huge difference. It's kinda how North Korea is called the Democratic People's Republic of Korea yet is anything but democratic.

aaah ok, I thought it was an extreme version of "the state provides EVERYTHING - and you belong to the State" kinda twisted Socialism. The "Survival of the fittest" Darwinism the Nazi's seemed to take to heart is pretty interesting as well.

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1 minute ago, rm2551 said:

aaah ok, I thought it was an extreme version of "the state provides EVERYTHING - and you belong to the State" kinda twisted Socialism. The "Survival of the fittest" Darwinism the Nazi's seemed to take to heart is pretty interesting as well.

Except that the Nazi's based their social engineering, eugenics not on hard science but on emotion (sound familiar?). The last thing you ever want to do from a scientific perspective is reduce your gene pool as this will cause much more negative mutations over subsequent generations. Eugenics based on actual science would have a situation whereby everyone would have to chose a mate outside of their race, not inside. Doing so over four to five generations would produce the real uber-mench, a goddamned genetic marvel in fact.

The fact is the Nazi's were pretty fucking stupid.

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1 hour ago, IpMan said:

Well gee Steve, please enlighten us to the complicated truth. After all, 12 million displaced Germans of which around 2 million were killed, not to mention the rapes and other atrocities. Yep, too simplistic.

"The victors were as bad as the Nazi's" is astonishingly stupid and simplistic. If one can equate orchestrating pre-meditated murder of 6,000,000 Jews and the devastation of Europe on one side against exacting revenge at war's end on the other I can't help you. 

Edited by SteveAJones

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40 minutes ago, SteveAJones said:

"The victors were as bad as the Nazi's" is astonishingly stupid and simplistic. If one can equate orchestrating pre-meditated murder of 6,000,000 Jews and the devastation of Europe on one side against exacting revenge at war's end on the other I can't help you. 

Watch the film. Of course the Nazi's and Japs were worse, but it just shows you how anyone can become a sadistic brute given the circumstances.

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3 hours ago, redrum said:

Of course the Nazi's and Japs were worse, but it just shows you how anyone can become a sadistic brute given the circumstances.

On this we can agree.

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13 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

"The victors were as bad as the Nazi's" is astonishingly stupid and simplistic. If one can equate orchestrating pre-meditated murder of 6,000,000 Jews and the devastation of Europe on one side against exacting revenge at war's end on the other I can't help you. 

Steve you missed my point, I never said all the allies were as bad as the Nazi's as what the Nazi's did was pre-meditated and systematic. However I will claim the Soviets were in fact just as bad as the Nazi's and the focus of the documentary was Soviet and non-German actions. The reason being is the Soviet's were doing exactly the same shit the Germans were doing in Poland while the two still enjoyed their non-aggression pact, plus Stalin had purposely and systematically starved over 5 million Soviet citizens to death during the 1930's. That does not even take into account that Stalin gave the Soviet troops free reign (pre-mediated) to do whatever they wanted to anyone they wanted on the march East toward Berlin.

So yes, the Soviets were just as bad as the Nazi's. If I am to be completely honest I still do not like the Russians. I am sure things have changed somewhat since Stalin but not by much just by Putin's behaviors alone. 

 

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4 hours ago, IpMan said:

However I will claim the Soviets were in fact just as bad as the Nazi's and the focus of the documentary was Soviet and non-German actions. 

The point of contention is "the victors are just as bad as the Nazi's".  Now you're saying only the Russians.

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Just to chime in with a story; There used to be a 90 yr old German lady who'd come into the store where I work. She'd always tell the same story about how terrible it was after the war was over. She'd very nonchalantly mention how she was raped repeatedly. Said she eventually left Europe for America because Europe was becoming too socialized, and socialism was nothing more than poor people wanting to share the wealth. I guess that's her opinion. I've always been a fan of the way Scandinavia handle the distribution of wealth. That's muh story.

Edited by gibsonfan159

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The Russians were PISSED!  They lost over 17,000,000 people, most of them non-combatents!  I really don't think the Germans could expect anything like mercy...

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4 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

The point of contention is "the victors are just as bad as the Nazi's".  Now you're saying only the Russians.

Please show me where I said that because I never did.

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"The conversations I had with him not only confirm the documentary, but far exceed it in terms of horror. He told me of how they would make the German women & girls beg for food like dogs, give them a little, then piss on the rest and give it to them. They were starving so they ate that right up. My uncle said he never raped anyone, but he did say he made starving girls and women "work" for their food if you get my drift." 

What a prick.

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12 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

I've always been a fan of the way Scandinavia handle the distribution of wealth. 

It works for them because they share a common ethno-cultural heritage and language. In other words, a homogeneous society (predominantly white). Note also it's population is only around 21 million, making the endless comparisons to the US quite silly. It's a rotten apples to oranges comparison.

8 hours ago, IpMan said:

Please show me where I said that because I never did.

YOU did not say it, but it was said here and it was also the point of contention we were discussing.

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5 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

It works for them because they share a common ethno-cultural heritage and language. In other words, a homogeneous society (predominantly white). Note also it's population is only around 21 million, making the endless comparisons to the US quite silly. It's a rotten apples to oranges comparison.

YOU did not say it, but it was said here and it was also the point of contention we were discussing.

Oye Vay !!!

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