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JonF

Knebworth or Earl's Court? Which is the better concert

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4 hours ago, TheGreatOne said:

Earls Court was more funky and energetic

Coke instead of smack, that's why :lol: 

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Jimmy Page had already started using smack on the '75 tour if not before; according to (in my opinion) the definitive Zeppelin bio, Trampled Under Foot  by Barney Hoskyns, Page was at times a mess offstage on that tour and too strung out to even play sometimes... the legendary and late film producer Jerry Weintraub (their booking agent at the time) got one look at Jimmy and asked Peter Grant "is that guy gonna live?"

'Nuff said really.

 

Edited by The Old Hermit

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10 hours ago, The Old Hermit said:

Jimmy Page had already started using smack on the '75 tour if not before; according to (in my opinion) the definitive Zeppelin bio, Trampled Under Foot  by Barney Hoskyns, Page was at times a mess offstage on that tour and too strung out to even play sometimes... the legendary and late film producer Jerry Weintraub (their booking agent at the time) got one look at Jimmy and asked Peter Grant "is that guy gonna live?"

'Nuff said really.

 

This is an excellent book.  If I recall, there is mention that Page dabbled in heroin as early as the US tour in '73.

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17 hours ago, The Old Hermit said:

Jimmy Page had already started using smack on the '75 tour if not before; according to (in my opinion) the definitive Zeppelin bio, Trampled Under Foot  by Barney Hoskyns, Page was at times a mess offstage on that tour and too strung out to even play sometimes... the legendary and late film producer Jerry Weintraub (their booking agent at the time) got one look at Jimmy and asked Peter Grant "is that guy gonna live?"

'Nuff said really.

 

I'm pretty sure Hoskyns has those quotes in the wrong place, and that they should properly refer to 1977. I don't think there's any audio or visual evidence that Jimmy was too strung out to play at any point in 1975, and the specific Chicago reference (I can't double check, I don't have the book in front of me right now) makes me think of April 9th 1977.

Wholly agree that the Hoskyns book is generally excellent though!

 

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5 hours ago, Crimson Avenger said:

I'm pretty sure Hoskyns has those quotes in the wrong place, and that they should properly refer to 1977. I don't think there's any audio or visual evidence that Jimmy was too strung out to play at any point in 1975, and the specific Chicago reference (I can't double check, I don't have the book in front of me right now) makes me think of April 9th 1977.

Wholly agree that the Hoskyns book is generally excellent though!

 

I give Hoskyns the benefit of the doubt that he knew where he was placing the quotes in the proper place and context, but you could well be right.  It surprised me too when I read that because all the photos of Jimmy at that time, plus the audio and visual footage we have of '75, does not indicate someone messed up and smacked out, his playing was as good as ever so maybe you're right... it's a bit of a blip if you are, it gives a false impression to the reader.

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43 minutes ago, The Old Hermit said:

I give Hoskyns the benefit of the doubt that he knew where he was placing the quotes in the proper place and context, but you could well be right.  It surprised me too when I read that because all the photos of Jimmy at that time, plus the audio and visual footage we have of '75, does not indicate someone messed up and smacked out, his playing was as good as ever so maybe you're right... it's a bit of a blip if you are, it gives a false impression to the reader.

It's only to be expected I guess, people quoted that book are recalling things from a long time ago, and if they were there, I don't suppose their memory is 100%! Hoskyns' book is one of the most accurate, honest attempts at telling the story. But those bits do jar; they make no sense for 1975 and a lot of sense for 1977.

I don't know why, but some other writers seem very keen to portray Jimmy as smacked out rather earlier than it actually happened. Maybe it sells books eh. The sad thing is that people read this stuff and believe it.

Back to the 1975/79 argument, I get the impression that Jimmy is pretty clean in 1979. That Heartbreaker vid that Chillumpuffer posted is excellent and shows a player in very firm control. The band played three very good shows in 1979, and one duff one. It's a shame that everyone always concentrates on the duff one.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Crimson Avenger said:

It's only to be expected I guess, people quoted that book are recalling things from a long time ago, and if they were there, I don't suppose their memory is 100%! Hoskyns' book is one of the most accurate, honest attempts at telling the story. But those bits do jar; they make no sense for 1975 and a lot of sense for 1977.

I don't know why, but some other writers seem very keen to portray Jimmy as smacked out rather earlier than it actually happened. Maybe it sells books eh. The sad thing is that people read this stuff and believe it.

Back to the 1975/79 argument, I get the impression that Jimmy is pretty clean in 1979. That Heartbreaker vid that Chillumpuffer posted is excellent and shows a player in very firm control. The band played three very good shows in 1979, and one duff one. It's a shame that everyone always concentrates on the duff one.

 

 

 

Just look at the pictures of Jimmy from 75' he is looking healthy and has his usual weight in his frame, the eyes are clear and focused. On the few dates his playing was a bit sub-par it is most likely due to the broken finger as evident in his excellent playing from February on. Don't know if he was dabbling in H in 75' but if he was, it was just that and it did not affect his playing. The noticeable difference in Page's appearance begins in 76' and goes down hill quick from there.

I agree, he was damn focused at both Copenhagen gigs and did a pretty good job at the gig on the 4th. however I do believe some of his playing on the 4th was affected by nerves, overall that first Knebworth gig was damn good. That show on the 11th though....ARGH! Like you said, a band can pull off 100 great shows, then do one shitty one and what does everyone remember? The bad one of course.

This is why I give the edge to Earls Court, as mentioned above they group were still full of swagger and confidence, something sorely missing from Knebworth even though the first show was good, when you watch them there are moments where they look nervous and unsure of themselves.

Edited by IpMan

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I think the Earl's Court and knebworth gigs highlight the lack of consistency in performances post 1975.  The Earl's Court gigs that I've heard (24th and 25th) are more consistent than the knebworth gigs. 

I listen to recordings of these concerts but they are not my favourite recordings from 1975.

I don't go with the view that the knebworth gigs were rubbish, but that there were more average and below average sections. A trend that continued in 1980.

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47 minutes ago, Slowfoot said:

I think the Earl's Court and knebworth gigs highlight the lack of consistency in performances post 1975.  The Earl's Court gigs that I've heard (24th and 25th) are more consistent than the knebworth gigs. 

I listen to recordings of these concerts but they are not my favourite recordings from 1975.

I don't go with the view that the knebworth gigs were rubbish, but that there were more average and below average sections. A trend that continued in 1980.

Agreed. If EC is so legendary, why hasn't Page released a best of from the five nights on audio or video. He did with the LA shows in '72. We have to assume it's because EC is not Zep at their peak. 

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2 hours ago, Flares said:

Agreed. If EC is so legendary, why hasn't Page released a best of from the five nights on audio or video. He did with the LA shows in '72. We have to assume it's because EC is not Zep at their peak. 

Give it time...

Just because Jimmy Page hasn't overseen an EC live album - a full concert on video is likely out because of the degraded condition of the master tapes among other reasons - doesn't mean either he doesn't see them as worthy or won't actually put it together sometime in the future... but your point is taken.  It got me thinking though, would it be worth it to release an EC live album and what would be the point other than the obvious?  Prior to the release of How The West Was Won  in 2003, there was a definite need in the official Zep canon for a proper live album that showcased what they were fully capable of on one of those "magic nights" (as Jimmy once put it), we got that with the latter album, is there really a need for another Zep live album - on top of TSRTS -  and could an EC live opus compete with HTWWW...?

The answer obviously depends on how good you think the Earl's Court stint was overall in the live pantheon; me, I really like those shows, even though Percy's voice was not strong at the beginning, but that wasn't his fault though and could easily be 'fixed' in the studio were a live album to go ahead.  On a playing level, the band were rarely better and knocked it out of the park, but not in the same way as on HTWWW... by May 1975, the band had a depth and maturity to their playing overall in comparison to L.A. 1972's ready-steady-charge approach; the former was the band in a tight-but-loose groove mode whilst the latter was a steroidal monster steamroller flattening everything and everyone in it's path.  Both are equally tremendous and both equally powerful, but still different in their own ways.

I'll admit that I would love a three-disc EC official live album (with Kevin Shirley again behind the mixing console, if it ain't broken...) but it won't be a gaping hole in the canon if Jimmy never goes through with it.

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3 hours ago, The Old Hermit said:

It got me thinking though, would it be worth it to release an EC live album and what would be the point other than the obvious? 

For me, it would be neat to have a live release of some of their later material because,  on CD, we've got nothing past Housesarrow-10x10.png of the Holy.  For that purpose, I think a release of Knebworth would be a lot more exciting.

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What about a release of a compilation of era's? Is there anything from '79, '80 that could make it on? I would suggest there is a Trampled Underfoot from 1980 that is their absolute best.

Something of a "Complete Live Collective" - but obviously wittled down to what JP puts together.

Maybe 4 to 6 disc, and dvd (or 2 if enough material unreleased).

I've said it before, I'll say it again.....

I live in hope!

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24 minutes ago, rm2551 said:

What about a release of a compilation of era's? Is there anything from '79, '80 that could make it on? I would suggest there is a Trampled Underfoot from 1980 that is their absolute best.

Something of a "Complete Live Collective" - but obviously wittled down to what JP puts together.

Maybe 4 to 6 disc, and dvd (or 2 if enough material unreleased).

I've said it before, I'll say it again.....

I live in hope!

That sounds like the chronological live album that Jimmy desperately wanted to put together since the early-mid '70's but couldn't get the the others to agree to it... I think that would have been the best of all possible outcomes regarding a definitive LZ live release (especially with the advent of the CD format), but the main beef I would have with it is that no shows from '77 were multi-tracked (that we know of), so there would be a big gap in the chronology... damn their hides for not parking the Rolling Stones Mobile outside the Forum for at least a couple of those incredible shows!!!

I'm not sure any of the 1980 shows were multi-tracked either, but again, we don't know everything that was taped over the years...

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Certainly official releases of both Earls Court and Knebworth would be very welcome; they are both hugely important events in the band's history and would fill the 'later live material' gap very nicely. Especially if an EC release made use of 18th/23rd May, which DVD does not. That could show those gigs in at least as good a light as 1972. A complete Knebworth show would have to lean heavily on 4th August, but there are a few things from 11th which are worth salvaging.

Unfortunately I doubt we'll see any further official live material until those decisions are no longer in the hands of the band members.

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1 hour ago, Crimson Avenger said:

Certainly official releases of both Earls Court and Knebworth would be very welcome; they are both hugely important events in the band's history and would fill the 'later live material' gap very nicely. Especially if an EC release made use of 18th/23rd May, which DVD does not. 

Unfortunately I doubt we'll see any further official live material until those decisions are no longer in the hands of the band members.

Lord, I hope not... I'm still hoping Jimmy will put together an EC live album before he either retires or takes his final dirt nap.  And if I were he, I'd leave explicit instructions that no further Zeppelin releases can happen after he departs for Valhalla...

With regards what nights of the EC stint to use, they couldn't use all of either the 17th or 18th; according to Jimmy himself, the multi-track cut out early on the former and Bonzo's kick drum wasn't recorded on the latter...

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On 02/02/2016 at 0:37 AM, Nutrocker said:
8 hours ago, The Old Hermit said:
8 hours ago, The Old Hermit said:

Lord, I hope not... I'm still hoping Jimmy will put together an EC live album before he either retires or takes his final dirt nap.  And if I were he, I'd leave explicit instructions that no further Zeppelin releases can happen after he departs for Valhalla...

With regards what nights of the EC stint to use, they couldn't use all of either the 17th or 18th; according to Jimmy himself, the multi-track cut out early on the former and Bonzo's kick drum wasn't recorded on the latter...

 

8 hours ago, The Old Hermit said:
Quote

 

 

Lord, I hope not... I'm still hoping Jimmy will put together an EC live album before he either retires or takes his final dirt nap.  And if I were he, I'd leave explicit instructions that no further Zeppelin releases can happen after he departs for Valhalla...

With regards what nights of the EC stint to use, they couldn't use all of either the 17th or 18th; according to Jimmy himself, the multi-track cut out early on the former and Bonzo's kick drum wasn't recorded on the latter...

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, The Old Hermit said:

Lord, I hope not... I'm still hoping Jimmy will put together an EC live album before he either retires or takes his final dirt nap.  And if I were he, I'd leave explicit instructions that no further Zeppelin releases can happen after he departs for Valhalla...

With regards what nights of the EC stint to use, they couldn't use all of either the 17th or 18th; according to Jimmy himself, the multi-track cut out early on the former and Bonzo's kick drum wasn't recorded on the latter...

That's a blow. Remember Kevin 'don't call me' Shirley saying in an interview that all 5 nights were multitracked. If there are actually only 3 usable shows then I guess this reduces the chances of a 'best of EC' considerably, especially as much of the best of the usable shows is already out on the DVD.

Big shame 'cos EC is the only viable official live Zeppelin release I can envisage at this point.

Edited by renounce

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2 hours ago, renounce said:

That's a blow. Remember Kevin 'don't call me' Shirley saying in an interview that all 5 nights were multitracked. If there are actually only 3 usable shows then I guess this reduces the chances of a 'best of EC' considerably, especially as much of the best of the usable shows is already out on the DVD.

Big shame 'cos EC is the only viable official live Zeppelin release I can envisage at this point.

The missing kick drum is a bore, but not an insurmountable problem.  In fact it's a fairly easy fix, if you've got an mix engineer willing to put in the effort.
The guys who mixed the O2 gig thought that Jasons kick drum lacked that certain je ne sais quoi and beefed the sound up with samples (there's an article about this in Sound-on-sound magazine).  You could use a similar technique for the missing kick drum night.  The other mics on the kit (as well as other mics on stage) will give you plenty of information for placing the kick drum, and you've got another 3-and-a-bit nights of performances to capture pretty much every nuance that Bonzo put into the kick drum.  With care and skill you could re-create that performance pretty accurately.

 

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3 minutes ago, woz70 said:

The missing kick drum is a bore, but not an insurmountable problem.  In fact it's a fairly easy fix, if you've got an mix engineer willing to put in the effort.
The guys who mixed the O2 gig thought that Jasons kick drum lacked that certain je ne sais quoi and beefed the sound up with samples (there's an article about this in Sound-on-sound magazine).  You could use a similar technique for the missing kick drum night.  The other mics on the kit (as well as other mics on stage) will give you plenty of information for placing the kick drum, and you've got another 3-and-a-bit nights of performances to capture pretty much every nuance that Bonzo put into the kick drum.  With care and skill you could re-create that performance pretty accurately.

 

Thanks for that info. I had no idea that could be done. I guess there's enough leakthrough from the other drum mikes to know exactly at which points the kick drum was used.

Well, I suppose that makes an EC release a little less unlikely.

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To me Knebworth gets a few extra points just for what it was...their first live gig in years, and huge gigs at that.  The YouTube clip Chillumpuffer quoted above is pretty amazing, Page starts out so loud and grungy, for a minute I thought it might be Alice in Chains, or Crazy Horse...

I like Knebworth for the variety of songs, although the versions of some of them are almost painfully bad.  ALS from one of the nights is so bad, you can almost see Plant roll his eyes at how horrible they are handling the song.

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I think one of the problems with Zeppelin's live performances of "Achilles Last Stand" is that they left it until late in the set, by which time Page in particular was starting to get tired and sloppy. IMO with a lot of what I call the 1977 "Speed Metal" versions it's mainly the copious amounts of blow they ingested that got them through the song. 

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