6-23-77: eddie edwards source?

[DATguy]

Hello all. I was wondering if anyone had specific I.D. information about the Eddie Edwards source which was originally combined with mike millard's tapes. the most information i've been able to garner about it is the following: ""Eddie Edwards "Trampled Underfoot" 1st Gen cassette of vinyl transfer"". Now, granted, I have yet to scour the earth for it, but I have put quite a spot of time into my search now and so far as I can tell, either this source completely no longer exists, or I'm doing a really bad job of dissecting the semantics of that sentence, which came from a description in the Winston Remasters.

 

I have also found evidence that there was a release of... trying to remember... i think it may have even just been "For BadgeHolders Only", but was released on a label called Balboa, and is apparently the only non-Millard complete source without unforgivable issues such as single-channel dropouts, etc. I thought perhaps this could possibly be the "vinyl transfer" mentioned in the Winston Remasters, but have not found a way to confirm that, nor have I been able to find this Balboa release in the first place.

 

Bottom Line: Does anyone have any information about that vinyl transfer mentioned in the Winston Remasters, or even just have any knowledge to add concerning lowest-gen-as-possible Eddie Edwards source? Because this is literally everything I got, and it ain't much. The winston remaster wasn't done that long ago, right? So it's unlikely we're talking about something that time has swallowed forever, one would think. Anyway thank you in advance; I figured if I was going to ask the question anywhere, it should be here.

[zeptrade]

Led Zeppelin - 1977.06.23
Venue: Great Western Forum
City: Inglewood
Country: USA
Title:
Label:
Quality: Very Good+ Audience
Comments: Remastered vinyl rip (May 2010)

01 The Rover/Sick Again
02 Nobody's Fault But Mine
03 Over The Hills And Far Away
04 Since I've Been Loving You
05 No Quarter
06 Ten Years Gone
07 The Battle Of Evermore
08 Going To California
09 Black Country Woman
10 Bron-Yr-Aur Stomp
11 White Summer/Black Mountain Side
12 Kashmir
13 Trampled Underfoot
14 Out On The Tiles/Over The Top
15 Guitar Solo
16 Achilles Last Stand
17 Stairway To Heaven
18 Keith Moon
19 Whole Lotta Love
20 Rock And Roll
21 End

May 2010 Vinyl rip from 4LPs set "For Badge Holders Only"
on LZ 1234 & LZ 7 labels.

Thorens TD280 (Ortofon 2M Red cartridge)>Marantz PM-45>M-Audio Delta 2496>A.A. 3.0

Transferred restored and remastered with Adobe Audition 3.0

dadgad prod.

[pluribus]

Eddie Edwards did a compilation of the Badgeholders show called Three Hours of Lunacy a long time ago, which used the alternate source for the first song, and the vinyl source for the rest of the show, with the Millard tape to fill gaps. I'm sure it's out there somewhere for download.

The Balboa bootleg is just the Millard recording, with all of the incomplete portions and drops.

 

[DATguy]

9 hours ago, pluribus said:

Eddie Edwards did a compilation of the Badgeholders show called Three Hours of Lunacy a long time ago, which used the alternate source for the first song, and the vinyl source for the rest of the show, with the Millard tape to fill gaps. I'm sure it's out there somewhere for download.

The Balboa bootleg is just the Millard recording, with all of the incomplete portions and drops.

 

What is the vinyl source, then? because i'm fairly certain it's not what the post above yours mentions; that is a vinyl from something called Dragonfly, i have found zero information linking eddie to that source, i WOULD HAVE found info linking eddie to that source were it so, i have both that dadgad remaster and the original and artwork came with it and i sure as heck dont see "eddie edwards" or "trampled underfoot" anywhere on it, and in any case a remaster of anything wouldnt be low-gen. what is the vinyl source you are mentioning, pluribus? Because so far as I can tell, "For Badgeholders Only" originated from TDOLZ and all other copies are remasters of that.

 

I have found evidence confirming that Edwards engineered the Tarantura release, but with all due respect that statement in no way indicates it was necessarily his low-gen source. I speak from experience when i tell you that a music engineer is a yacht-driver (assuming they are still using a real board like an SSL9000J or a flagship Amek as opposed to just Pro Tools on their laptop or something), and what i mean by that is simply that an engineer is not someone who makes decisions about WHAT is recorded, he/she is simply given recordings and ordered to mix them to the best of their ability (or, in far more likely scenarios, quite simply to the best of what the artist wants, whether you know on a technical level that it is "right" or not; hence the loudness war, upsampling, and several other complete abuses of mixing which have become commonplace due entirely to the fact that ppl without "The Ear" still can't tell the difference between lossy and lossless, and more to the point that the mixes are made with the format in mind. again, i speak from experience, very few if any rappers have ever been like "let's do things right and go from initial stems to final bounce all in the same bit-depth and sample-rate, and i want that BD/SR to be AT LEAST 24/96"; music is product and so it is mixed catering to fluctuating mp3 frequencies coming out of pre-EQed consumer devices, with car stereos being the primary target of such pre-EQing because that's where ppl still listen to music the most according to statistics. Every single rapper i have ever worked with -- and just to make it clear right now, no i am not anyone who is considered hot $h|t in the industry or anything -- has blown our beautiful Augspurger monitors to shit with upsampled compressed-to-heck low end and they require repair after every last one of those sessions. no one cares that it's the wrong way to do things any more, and mixing is no longer lucrative enough an occupation that you can tell an artist he or she is wrong about ANYTHING unless you're already someone with like 20 gold and platinum records and at least one grammy under their belt.

 

Also, clearly stated in Winston's notes: the thing from Eddie has something to do with being titled "Trampled Underfoot". that aint the Dragonfly release, the Tarantura release, or anything else i've ever seen directly linked to June 23rd. Unless Tarantura is OWNED by eddie edwards (heck, maybe it is, i dunno, if it is i'll eat my words gladly) then it is not incredibly realistic to assume that eddie was told to engineer "For Badgeholders Only" and then just slipped his own tape in there on the down-low; i'm sure things worked much differently in recording in the late 70s but that would be career-suicide for an engineer today and i fail to see how it would not also be so back then. i will look into what you are saying pluribus but i have the Tarantura release and i'm not necessarily saying you're wrong but i sure don't remember making any mental connection between its sound and the first four songs of "Mike and Eddie". Also, bear this in mind, and i'm in no way trying to disrespect Winston when i say this, I'm sure it's safe to say we're ALL grateful for all his work, but the man openly admits in his notes to basically just lining the two sources up and then using a plug-in to make them both not so INCREDIBLY distinct from one another.

 

it's no different than the "Genuine Masters"; nothing from GM is an actual literal Genuine Master, there is only one true genuine master and in the case of the 1977 Forum shows we're basically talking about Millard. compare the GM shows to other "video soundtrack" shows, such as Seattle '77; the similarity in sound is not a coincidence. DVDA, to greatly oversimplify it, is just a shadow cast over multiple sources to blur the lines between them; hence no DVDA of any show that has been captured in full 100% soundboard unless it was a major release like TSRTS. if you run Forum GM through even the most simplistic of spectrographs, you get something that quite simply is not what tape looks like. the spek may look finer, but that is still not first-gen or even low-gen and therefore is not even up for consideration as a serious remastering source. Have you ever listened to really good soundboards closely, and by closely i mean like over good headphones from a quality source? Even the best SBDs, such as Lord of the Strings or Texas Hurricane or Magical Sound Boogie, please take it from me because if i may be so bold i AM in fact sorta-kinda a source of expertise in this area, those recordings are less safe to listen to than random MP3s, because they've been processed so many times. dadgad is a perfect example, in fact; i'm sorry but that man just simply doesnt know what he's doing. if you find yourself with a headache after listening to anything processed by dadgad, guess what that's no coincidence.

 

OK look this is my ultimate point: it's been a while, i like to think i'm good at what i do, and i have the millard tapes, but i need eddie's source to do anything with the 23rd. what does the part of your sentence mean when it says that an alternate source was used, then a vinyl source, and then Millard's tapes? you're saying there is a third source i should be aware of if personal remastering is on my mind? again i'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, i have no idea if you are or not, it just seems unlikely to me that in all my research i found no indication that the readily-available Tarantura "Badgeholders" is in fact Eddie's 1st-gen-tape-to-vinyl transfer, and just because you see his name and that release in the same sentence does NOT mean it is his source; I would love it if it turned out you were right, because it would mean i could stop looking, but "I engineered Tarantura's release and also happen to be an enthusiast who tapes them" quite simply is an entirely different statement than "this release comes directly from the tape I supplied Tarantura". the Dragonfly release is no secret either; i just feel as though that information is too obtuse to not appear distinctly in any literature.

 

Again, I really want to stress, not saying you're necessarily wrong, in fact it would thrill me if you were right; it just seems as though such info would not be so secretive, to not be clearly stated in any literature i have studied in pursuit of this source. i also want to stress something else: every time you touch an audio signal, touch it AT ALL, it deteriorates. I've seen, for example, rips of zep shows that say in the notes "i used this guy's remix as my source". for any true audiophile that is UNACCEPTABLE, like entirely without discussion UN-AC-CEPT-AB-LE, and if nothing else even if the Dragonfly release is in fact Edwards' source then the dadgad remaster would be UN-AC-CEPT-AB-LE to use for mixing quite simply because it is anything beyond 2nd-gen. (i have original Dragonfly too, i'm just saying, like FYI for anyone reading, just because someone else already improved it doesnt mean they did work for you without consequences, because you're ultimately still talking about further processing and thus deterioration of the signal.)

 

I've rambled enough, I always do. I'm pretty darn sure it's not the Dragonfly release, but if it is then I owe the poster an apology and regardless will be grateful to him; i seek merely confirmation of the source. pretend the Winston Remasters haven't happened, and I'm Winston asking you what to look for in order to complete the 23rd with Eddie's source, as low-gen as possible of course. who what where when, all that. names, labels, hell supply me an eBay link if it's for sale. Again, i want to make it VERY clear, i am not attempting to dispute you, i am just trying to MAKE SURE i acquire as low-gen sources for all nights at the Forum as possible so as to try my own hand at remastering them. thank you both for your input and i would gladly welcome more and more.

 

[ZepPhan-WR]

21 hours ago, DATguy said:

Does anyone have any information about that vinyl transfer mentioned in the Winston Remasters, or even just have any knowledge to add concerning lowest-gen-as-possible Eddie Edwards source?

The only info I have..  Eddie did the vinyl transfer of For Badge Holders Only. He did a extremely meticulous job to clean up all the vinyl noise, Patched it with a "low gen" Millard source. Not sure if he altered the sound. Hope that helps.

WR

[DATguy]

ZepPhan-WR thank you i have merely one clarification if you'd be so kind: when you say Eddie did the vinyl transfer of BadgeHolders, are you talking about the same release as pluribus? Tarantura's "Three Hours Of Lunacy"? I'm just trying to clarify if you are talking about that version, or if you mean that like the original release of BadgeHolders, like whatever the first bootleg was? 

OK look actually let me make this even simpler: i'm going to list the rips of this show i possess, and if anyone knows for a fact that one of them is the eddie transfer, please pipe in. i normally wouldn't be this needy and i do apologize for that, the only reason for it though, as you will see, is that i have quite a few different things that could be it:

1 - For Badgeholders Only (Rockwrok); 

2 - For Badgeholders Only (Scorpio); 

3 - For Badge Holders Only (SODD); 

4 - Sgt. Page's BadgeHolders Club Band (Tarantura2000); 

5 - For Badge Holders Only - 3cd (EVSD 471/472/473) from the boxset 18cd+1dvd Empress Valley (EVSD 465~482 & EVSDVD 016); 

6 - 1977-06-21~22~23~25~26~27 - A Week For Badge Holders (Tarantura); and

7 - For Badge Holders Only - Vinyl Rip (Dragonfly Records) (and then also the dadgad remaster but obvsly it's not that)

Obviously if it were just right there in the liner notes or something i wouldnt have to ask, but i dont have a day to meticulously ear-match AUD sources like that. And the fact is that in order to do things right you cannot just pick up any old source; signal deterioration is the reason for desired low-gen, and this still occurs if you remaster something (that's all i meant by what i said about the Winston Remasters, for example - one might be so inclined to say "well the WRs sound good, why dont you just add to those?" but unfortunately that's not how it works). anyway thanks all once again; believe me i would not be posting and then persisting the thread had i not already spent ample time googling and whatnot. peace for now

[pluribus]

There is only one vinyl source, on that dragonfly bootleg. The Eddie Edwards fan remaster used a transfer he made of that vinyl source, and combined it with the Mike Millard source, and some other source for the first song. His fan remaster was called "Three Hours of Lunacy". The title is a quote from the show and has no relation to any bootleg release that used that same name (Tarantura, TDOLZ, or whoever). 

The bootlegs you listed are just various mixes of the show. I could list them out, but I'd be repeating what you can find on Bootledz.com

[Jimmywalnutz]

)

I have no idea if this helps. It is the 1st gen. Cassette Source Transfer . No Label. One song , TYG has a patch included, no origin noted. The tape is not as polished as some other Millard sources but  I had always thought Millard had another taper to create his own patches. I am certain he had help and assumed someone made, albeit inferior to Millard's work, but used for patches.

This is not a polished product but it is a Millard Tape. I have close to 20 documents of 6/21, 6/23, 6/25. Some differ in sound/ mix or whatever Millard did.

I have no clue whatsoever about engineering and tech matters. I can barely boot up a CPU.

Picture is 6/21 but 6/23 and 6/25 are available. I ordered the latter two and should have them any week. Discogs 70 bucks including shipping for this one and the same for the other two I'm awaiting.

Hope this helps.

[pluribus]

3 hours ago, Jimmywalnutz said:

I have no idea if this helps. It is the 1st gen. Cassette Source Transfer . No Label. One song , TYG has a patch included, no origin noted. The tape is not as polished as some other Millard sources but  I had always thought Millard had another taper to create his own patches. I am certain he had help and assumed someone made, albeit inferior to Millard's work, but used for patches.

This is not a polished product but it is a Millard Tape. I have close to 20 documents of 6/21, 6/23, 6/25. Some differ in sound/ mix or whatever Millard did.

I have no clue whatsoever about engineering and tech matters. I can barely boot up a CPU.

Picture is 6/21 but 6/23 and 6/25 are available. I ordered the latter two and should have them any week. Discogs 70 bucks including shipping for this one and the same for the other two I'm awaiting.

Hope this helps.

The "no label" boot releases you mention are all copies of the "unmarked 1st gen cassette" transfers from a fan group called JEMS. The transfers were free and available on places like Dimeadozen a few years ago. I think it was all of the 1975 and 1977 Millard recordings, from a guy who Millard used to trade with. The bootleg labels just took those and pressed them onto discs.  I think that's pretty much the standard for those "no label" discs. They are all pressings of stuff found online.

[Dirty Work]

Heard of the epic site Starship Black Beauty right? Samples of things like "Badgeholders -Balboa" tracks. And many others. Fwiw

Edit: Balbore, not Balboa. But still, fwiw.

[Jimmywalnutz]

Actually, upon closer examination and after reviewing my Discogs invoices, the boot I took a picture of and posted here earlier today is a title by Light House. As are the 6/23 & 6 /25/77 that I have coming from the same seller.

 Nevertheless,  welcome additions to my collection .

On the Discogs site they have  very similar looking No Label issues of the Four Millard nights . I must have passed on them and opted for the Light House Matrix.

Black Beauty actually has 2 songs from LH 6/25 on their site (no surprise) nary a full show their.

I have been over this , but I like something a little more tangible than just downloads. But that's me. I do plenty of internet rips but I make my own cases . 

What is funny is that I thought I was an audiophile or as much as one can be when listening to boots. After reading some of the content here I am a complete cave man.

Just a couple of questions if I may,

 Am I listening to a copy of the INITIAL cassette Millard brought home from The Forum but transferred to compact disc by Light House ?

If I had opted to save a few bucks and bought the No Label sets would it have mattered ?

The money doesn't bother me but if it's not a copy of what Millard Initially brought home on 6/21, 6/23 & 6/25 I'd be pissed and depending on my mood, start trouble with Discogs by reporting the Light House item as misrepresented and have it banned from sale. I have enough versions of this show I can certainly live without it.

It's doesn't sound the EXACTLY the same as the 6/21 X-mas CDs (my favorite)  and naturally does not sound the same as  the Winston Re Masters I love so much. I know enough to that I am listening to Led Zeppelin on 6/21/77. It's some of my favorite Zeppelin and I know every nuance down to the loudmouth complaining about the beer vendor. 

[pluribus]

I think that the general rule of thumb is that you never know what you are going to get with bootleg releases. The same unfortunately applies to stuff labeled as lowgen/1st gen/2nd gen/etc.  These are unofficial recordings after all. 

If memory serves, all of the No Label and Lighthouse stuff are just the better online transfers available on torrent sites. If it's a recent release of a Millard recording, then it was almost certainly from the unmarked 1st gens that the JEMS guys put online a few years ago. 

The reason why stuff from Empress Valley or Wendy or Tarantura sound any different is because in almost all cases they are just doing EQ and editing the same type of source tapes. Or they are re-tweaking some other version of a common source tape, whether it was a JEMS sourced tape, or a different lowgen source of the same recording. It is very rare that the bootleg labels surface entirely new recordings any more, apart from those soundboards that Empress Valley releases.  

 

[Jimmywalnutz]

I agree 100%. I buy a lot of boots and have gotten some winners . Including an Earls Courts Odysseus 5-24 that was on Celebration that had Oddseus emblazoned on all three unnumbered  discs the ink or paint was thicker than the freakin' case. When I put the 1st disc in my player it read as Conquistador 5/25 but the disc wouldn't play ! I think it was too heavy ! It was such a bad job I had to laugh.

 I have become a lot more selective and limit purchases to a few sellers and stick with primarily EV GF or T2 . My friend at the shop I go to is pretty good at getting what I want....for a price. 

With the Lighthouse Set it was an impulsive thing while browsing Discogs , I read the description and I wanted it. However,  with this purchase I wanted what I wanted and that was what was advertised. 1st Gen Cassette Transfer . I need another 6/21/77 like a hole in the head. It does sound raw so in the end I was happy but was pretty annoyed last night thinking I'd been had. 

I like the different matrix and mixes and then you find a true definitive version or a favorite one.  How long did it take for a definitive Japan 929 to come out....or has it ?

As far as the EV  SBD releases that drip out I loved 3/3/75 as it came but yet I'm waiting for a better (for me) 5/22/77 after two tries.

As you said you never know what you're going to get, sometimes it's fun but sometimes not.

Thanks.

 

[TheGreatOne]

How many recording sources of Blueberry Hill are there, as in different people recording the show ?      For example there is 1 boot called Final Statement I believe that has ever boot of the show, ie.  Rubber Dubber, etc and you can hear and compare all the versions.   It's quite interesting how the same recording results in different highlights in quality or variation listening experience.     Not sure who would pay over $500 to hear same exact recording 5 plus times.

[zeptrade]

6 sources circulating

[Jimmywalnutz]

6 hours ago, TheGreatOne said:

  It's quite interesting how the same recording results in different highlights in quality or variation listening experience.     Not sure who would pay over $500 to hear same exact recording 5 plus times.

Yes indeed. An example would be the LZ companions. A ton of alternate mixes are to be found on them and it will probably take a couple of years for me to absorb and know the differences by heart and easily articulate said difference as well as you know your name.

It's kind of like when you hear your favorite song and it may be a verse , chorus, solo, bass line, drum piece but you know EXACTLY when it's coming. Same principle.

When it comes to Live Zep , I was told early on that no two shows are the same and unless it's a blatant rip off ( Recorded and pressed by one label to another). Boots are free to be eq'd and mastered and remastered with impunity. Godfather Label has the louder punchy feel to their releases and The Winston Remasters are remastered or made more " listenable " as Mr. Winston sees fit.

If IP-Man does a 6-23-77 it will sound different than any of the others even if the nuances are not overtly audible they are (or will be there). And I will want to listen to it.

I have 6-21-77 on Four different labels  including 2 from EV. The Winston Remasters , The Lighthouse and a few no label rips or net source "masters" that I liked.

EV's X-mas version and Winstons are my favorites but not one is exactly the same and I listen to all of them, some more than others.

I would pay 500 bucks for five new excellent quality versions of Seattle 73 (I'm listening to it now) that I have never heard before, it would provide hours and months and years of entertainment. Heck maybe not 500 bucks but I would pay a lot of money for a real  clean , stereo version Blueberry Hill. It's iconic.

To each his own , none the same.

Peace. 

[Dirty Work]

All I know is I judge releases on sound quality, usually a sound quality I don't have to tweak much is best. Unless something is much better than Winston's Mike the Mike and the classic vinyl rip, I'm just going to stick to listening to the sources that are circulating. I doubt there is much better out there. Besides the soundboard. Due to its likely clarity, that would be the version I'd be waiting for.

ps this rambling is about 6/23/77

[juxtiphi]

I heard a snippet of the soundboard from the 6-23-77  bow solo.  If I remember correctly, I felt the aud was a much better sounding recording by a lot.

[Dirty Work]

You can't really tell without hearing them play a song. But agree, sounds more like the 6/11/77 sbd snippet than, say, the new '77 boards. Once the drums come in on 6/23
's snippet you can tell it sounds pretty good though. The "6/23 bow solo was the only thing recorded from the board, for Knebworth" story has never been a convincing one, especially considering the Soundboard Revolutionary Hurricane EVSD advertises every year or so.

Now back to topic. Obviously a gig played this well deserves as many sources as possible. It was an epic night for the Zeppelin, to say the least.