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Buddy Rich influences on Bonham's "Moby Dick"?


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If you skip to about 2:04 into this video, you might start to hear some Buddy Rich influences into Bonzo's live version(s) of "Moby Dick" in parts of this song.  Granted (not Peter), drum soloing is more limiting than most other standard instruments, but it is interesting to hear where some of Bonzo's influences (along with Gene Krupa) may have come from:

 

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Not only is Buddy Rich the best drummer ever. He is also one of the best musicians ever.

The way he drives his big band w/o music scores is simply astounding.

To tell you the truth I hear more of Ian Paice here.

Bonham isn't that fast, he is much more "dry" in his playing.

 Bonham's drum solos are the best solos in rock history.

 

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1 hour ago, MortSahlFan said:

I don't see it - John never really jazzed and swung it up.

Listen to Hots on for Nowhere, Royal Orleans, and Fool in the Rain. All have jazz drumming.

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3 hours ago, MortSahlFan said:

Not even close. Funk, funk, and a shuffle.

They are still jazz patterns, as a professional musician I think I would know. Especially since most funk rhythm stems from jazz, just look at Jaco Pastorius and Alphonse Muzon for examples. 

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5 hours ago, MortSahlFan said:

I'm a professional musician - I know..

 

Using Jaco is apples and oranges.

Both Dennis Chambers & Clarence Haskins were jazz drummers, they both played in Parliament. Apples & Apples right there. Then again, since you are a professional musician as well, you would know funk patters derive from jazz as do most shuffle patterns.

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  • 2 months later...
On 6/7/2016 at 5:51 PM, MortSahlFan said:

I don't see it - John never really jazzed and swung it up.

John Paul Jones said , " Bonzo swung". 

Its not that he jazzed or swung it up, the inference is that he was influenced by great jazz drummers and employed  their techniques. True, there isn't much real jazz sounding drumming in Zep's history ( LOL, why would there be??) except maybe the opening of How Many More Times. But, his phrasing has a lot of swing in it because he was influenced by great jazz drummers as well as the great R & B, Soul and Rock and Roll drummers. He clearly absorbed a lot from people like Joe Morello, Buddy, Elvin Jones (triplets) , May Roach ( he regularly began his solo after the melody of Moby Dick by quoting Max's solo The Drum Also Waltzes which someone smartly posted here), maybe even Philly Joe Jones ( he often played para-diddle-diddles all over the place , and Philly also played the legendary bass drum first note rest triplet figure which made Bonzo immediately stand out on Good Times Bad Times) .

I'm getting geeky here I know, but I feel this is something I haven't often read about and as a jazz drummer who is also a huge Bonzo head , I hear these similarities.   Bonzo's set up and tuning was basically big band ala Buddy Rich, Sonny Payne. He didn't tape up his heads or play concert toms like so many other rock drummers. He had a jazz drummers sound, just heavier because he used bigger drums. Under that bricklayer's touch he had a lot of sophistication and finesse.  A lot of his fills and phrases are triplet based, as compared to many other rock drummers who have a more eighth note approach to fills. It gives his drumming that "swinging" feeling. Ironically, Ginger Baker who said " Bonham couldn't swing from a rope" couldn't swing and he fancied himself a jazz drummer which is very ironic and laughable. What an ass!  

Butch Miles, former drummer with the Count Basie band told me Bonzo came to hear the band in Montreux and after the concert he talked to him backstage. He said Bonzo was very gracious and said he always loved the Basie band and was thrilled to see them live. 

The Drum Also Waltzes...and so did Bonzo! 

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On 6/6/2016 at 0:28 PM, boylollipop said:

Not only is Buddy Rich the best drummer ever. He is also one of the best musicians ever.

The way he drives his big band w/o music scores is simply astounding.

To tell you the truth I hear more of Ian Paice here.

Bonham isn't that fast, he is much more "dry" in his playing.

 Bonham's drum solos are the best solos in rock history.

 

I can't stand when people say so and so is the best ever. No, Buddy is not best ever, no one is. Just like no one is the best actor ever, or chef, or scientist or painter. 

I disagree ...Bonham was fast. He had very quick hands, rudimentally, though not on Buddy's level. Very few do. Paice definitely . If you listen closely to Bonzo's solos you'll hear some serious speed, especially before 77.

 

Edited by porgie66
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As a drummer, when I first started, I wanted to be as fast as possible. As soon as I started writing my own music, and listened with a producer's ear, I did what was best for the overall song, didn't wanna go nuts when I wanted to emphasize a bass line, piano or guitar riff... Drums should be melodic and rhythmic.

What I loved about Bonham was his taste.. In the studio, he seemed to play the right thing at the right moment. His touch on Stairway is great, the ghost notes, accents, and not just the typical dynamics of quit to loud gradually.

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In studio. Bonham was a literal minimalist, in concert he was over the top but in a good way. In studio He laid down a basic structure if you will (not saying his playing was basic) and in concert the expanded upon that structure any way he could.

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On Monday, June 06, 2016 at 0:28 PM, boylollipop said:

 

Bonham isn't that fast, he is much more "dry" in his playing.

 

This is an asinine statement!  John Bonham was fast.  His crossovers were phenomenally fast.  Listen to early veraions of Pat's Delight.  In one version, I've never heard anyone play as fast as Bonham did there.  I'll look in my collection and post what show it is from soon.

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On ‎06‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 5:47 PM, dpat said:

If you skip to about 2:04 into this video, you might start to hear some Buddy Rich influences into Bonzo's live version(s) of "Moby Dick" in parts of this song.  Granted (not Peter), drum soloing is more limiting than most other standard instruments, but it is interesting to hear where some of Bonzo's influences (along with Gene Krupa) may have come from:

 

You`ll hear many jazz, blues and soul influences within Bonzo`s playing...   

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I think the most obvious 'heart on his sleeve' influences you can hear in Bonham's solos are:-

Max Roach - He quite clearly lifts parts from The drum also waltzes

Ginger Baker - A lot of the kit rudiment stuff including his triplet finale can be found in Baker's Graham Bond & Cream solos (as well as some Elvin Jones solos).

Joe Morello - I think the hand solos clearly come from Morello & a lot of the more melodic side of Bonham's soloing

Gene Krupa - Again, the more melodic stuff, a lot of this comes from Sing Sing Sing & Big Noise from Winnetka

Buddy Rich - We know he listened to Buddy because he's quoted talking about him on at least one occasion "Not everyone can be a Buddy Rich", I think his faster snare drum stuff comes from listening to Rich's solos.

He had many influences in his drumming, of course you can hear people like Bernard Purdie, Zigaboo Modeliste, Carmine Appice, Alphonse Mouzon & Benny Benjamin in his playing but at the end of the day, he only really sounded like John Bonham.

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