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FL6

Jimmy's dominance in the band.

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One of the most important responsibilities of Producing that Page never gets acknowledgement for is the job of actual coaxing/pushing of your musicians in order to get the best performance out of them possible. And, knowing when the best possible performances have been achieved. This especially comes into play during the tracking of vocals.  Example: Richard Digby Smith (Asst. Engineer on Zep III & IV:

On recording vocals for SIBLY - "I remember Pagey pushing him, "Lets try the outro chorus again, improvise a bit more."  Thats what music producing really is, not knob twirling or finding cool effects, its much more intangible and demanding. I'm sure Page worked this way with Plant (in particular) on every one of their songs, with the exception of maybe ITTOD.  I personally don't think Page gets nearly enough credit for his LZ production skills, as revered as they are.

Terry Manning (mixed LZIII w/Page...just the two of them): "Jimmy was an incredibly insightful, true musical genius, in my opinion, and I've seen a lot of musical people. I would say that very little happened by accident. Yes, there would be the occasional take that you can't repeat so you go with that but it did take the insight to know that. He studied everything. When it says "produced by Jimmy Page" it seriously was."

Edited by blindwillie127

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18 hours ago, 76229 said:

what really stands out I think is just how much credit the rest of the band did get song writing wise, you compare that to say Roger Waters during Floyds latter years where he would lay claim to tracks he'd created a basic idea for even if the rest of the band had massively expanded them

I think that comparison comes down to the musical (and I presume personal) respect between the individuals. I admit my view is coloured as I can't stand the bloke, or Pink Floyd's music in general, but Waters has always come across as an arrogant character. By contrast, although I get the impression the individual members of Zeppelin can take or leave each other's company nowadays, there was / is real respect there for each others' musical abilities.

Contrast that to say, Noel Gallagher who I recall once said "I can't see how a bassline or drum pattern has improved any Oasis song".

I think Waters clearly changed during the Floyds career, early on with something like Ummagumma for example it was him pushing for everyone to be allowed there own solo section on the studio disk. As the 70's rolled by he clearly became more and more controlling to the degree on Animals he's laying sole claim to something like Sheep that anyone with half an ear can tell he simply wouldn't be capable of by himself, Gilmour and Wright obviously needed to make big contributions.

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8 hours ago, rm2551 said:

wow, that is interesting. Jonesey was an instant lock.

Page was well acquainted with JPJ's ability.  Plant and Bonham were unknowns to him.

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On 11/25/2016 at 8:04 PM, Mithril46 said:

. Then pretty sure Jimmy also instructed some of the lighting people on tour to put

more lighting on him than Plant. But he certainly live gave the others a wide leeway playing wise.

Had to quote you Mithril. :wave:  Really?  Jimmy is so shy.   I'll be the first to say if the cam + lights 
could have been on Page the entire time I would not complain,  but for him to want the
focus more on him my lord.   Almost ALL of the live official releases Page is dominating in
them -  O2 is the exception in my opinion of equal time,    but in Zep days Jones and Bonham
are the ones who could have been showcased more.   Royal Albert Hall is maybe more of
Plant,  but back then Jimmy was so introverted on stage.  Hair covering his face and that
conservative old man sweater vest.  Very darling and cute looking back now,  but it does not
exactly scream  "look at me".   I guess though it was the early 70s and maybe more fitting.  
The whole band onstage wasn't  as flamboyant.

The one live release that I have to shake my head at is Seattle.  The show is obviously a
Jimbert fan.   Man or woman - who knows who cares.   As a Zeppelin fan it's nice to have live
gigs recorded,  but I like to have each musician get their time in the spot light.  That show
basically shows us when Jimmy's smoking a dart,  while he has sweat running down to his navel and
Plant has chest hair and wears tight pants.  Meh maybe that's what was requested?!?  
^_^

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On 11/24/2016 at 8:34 AM, the chase said:

I'm curious, does that mean JPJ was initially more of an equal partner than RP and JB? I'm pretty sure I remember reading that Jones said he also put up some money towards  the 1st album's studio time.. Robert and JB were pretty much broke.. John Paul was rolling in the dough with all of his session work. I take it Jones was in for a percentage and not ever on a salary...? 

From what I've read, Page, JPJ and Peter Grant put up the money for the band's first tour and album.  They started off with a financial stake in Led Zeppelin while Plant and Bonham were on salary.  I'm guessing that being able to self-fund their first tour and album gave Page and Grant more negotiating power vis-a-vis the record labels who came calling in 1969.   However, JPJ brought more to the table than his checkbook.  He was an experienced session musician and arranger.   He and Page had done the occasional session together so Page was well acquainted with his talents.   They brought Richard Cole on board as Tour Manager because Cole had held the same job with The Yardbirds after Grant became their manager. 

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With JPJ yes the reputation, but Jimmy clearly also saw not just a bassist and keys man, but an arranger and orchestrator.

This is hardly small change, these talents can put you head and shoulders above the rest, KASHMIR.

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On 27/11/2016 at 3:22 PM, blindwillie127 said:

One of the most important responsibilities of Producing that Page never gets acknowledgement for is the job of actual coaxing/pushing of your musicians in order to get the best performance out of them possible. And, knowing when the best possible performances have been achieved. This especially comes into play during the tracking of vocals.  Example: Richard Digby Smith (Asst. Engineer on Zep III & IV:

On recording vocals for SIBLY - "I remember Pagey pushing him, "Lets try the outro chorus again, improvise a bit more."  Thats what music producing really is, not knob twirling or finding cool effects, its much more intangible and demanding. I'm sure Page worked this way with Plant (in particular) on every one of their songs, with the exception of maybe ITTOD.  I personally don't think Page gets nearly enough credit for his LZ production skills, as revered as they are.

Terry Manning (mixed LZIII w/Page...just the two of them): "Jimmy was an incredibly insightful, true musical genius, in my opinion, and I've seen a lot of musical people. I would say that very little happened by accident. Yes, there would be the occasional take that you can't repeat so you go with that but it did take the insight to know that. He studied everything. When it says "produced by Jimmy Page" it seriously was."

Exactly this. You've said it all for me.

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