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RockDude4492

New Mystery Soundboard?

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Just listened to this show and I have to say it's the best Zeppelin concert I have ever listened to. Just amazing (esp. D&C and NQ). They are so on fire here!

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4 hours ago, Frawls said:

I was reading Stephen Davis' 'Led Zeppelin '75' book last night on my kindle to see which shows he though were the best as he covered the entire tour and attended every show. He loved the MSG 2/12 and St. Louis 2/16 shows, didn't like the Nassau or Dallas shows, thought the Seattle Vancouver shows were the best of the tour and gave mixed reviews on the LA Forum shows. Everything else was kind of so-so.

If memory serves, Davis actually only attended one of the New York shows in February and the San Diego, Long Beach, and LA shows in March. It's written to make it seem like he went to all of the shows, but then he mentions the ones he got tickets for, and the ones his magazine sent him to cover. The rest he makes seem like he attended. Which is probably why he gets things wrong like claiming that that band played an Austin show, which never happened.

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Probably the best show from the 75 tour, next to the final LA gigs. TU the band still can't get it done to perfection, guess the fast pace of the tune just tripped up the band too many times.

Nevertheless, if you have to have one show on soundboard (to date) from the '75 tour, this is it.

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One small note RE the sound of the '77 tapes. If part of what folks are complaining about is the thin sound of Jones' bass (referenced above), that's nothing to do with the tapes or the taping equipment. It's because in '77 Jones switched to an Alembic bass guitar. Whatever the virtues of the Alembic might be, and however it might have sounded if you were actually there in the venue at the time, it sounds like absolute s*** on both the audience and soundboard tapes from '77. It's not only thin, but also distorted, and with an incredibly annoying "clackety-clack" kind of sound. It's just dreadful, and the only time I've ever heard its sonic problems tamed to a degree has been on an extremely well-done fan remaster of the 5-22-77 Forth Worth soundboard - which soundboard is the best-sounding circulating source for any '77 show.

Perhaps the best example of the Alembic's sonic awfulness on tape is the 7-23 and 7-24-1979 audience tapes from the two excellent Knebworth warm-up shows in Copenhagen. Fantastic performances (especially the 24th), excellent audience tapes - but there's a horrid clackety clack all over them, and for years I thought it was some part of Bonham's percussion setup being captured badly by the taper because of the acoustics of the hall. Only earlier this year did I realize it's not percussion at all - it's the horrible upper registers of the Alembic.

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16 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

One small note RE the sound of the '77 tapes. If part of what folks are complaining about is the thin sound of Jones' bass (referenced above), that's nothing to do with the tapes or the taping equipment. It's because in '77 Jones switched to an Alembic bass guitar. Whatever the virtues of the Alembic might be, and however it might have sounded if you were actually there in the venue at the time, it sounds like absolute s*** on both the audience and soundboard tapes from '77. It's not only thin, but also distorted, and with an incredibly annoying "clackety-clack" kind of sound. It's just dreadful, and the only time I've ever heard its sonic problems tamed to a degree has been on an extremely well-done fan remaster of the 5-22-77 Forth Worth soundboard - which soundboard is the best-sounding circulating source for any '77 show.

Perhaps the best example of the Alembic's sonic awfulness on tape is the 7-23 and 7-24-1979 audience tapes from the two excellent Knebworth warm-up shows in Copenhagen. Fantastic performances (especially the 24th), excellent audience tapes - but there's a horrid clackety clack all over them, and for years I thought it was some part of Bonham's percussion setup being captured badly by the taper because of the acoustics of the hall. Only earlier this year did I realize it's not percussion at all - it's the horrible upper registers of the Alembic.

I don't get this either, however there must have been a damn good reason for Jones to use the Alembics'. Jones was a classically trained musician and I would think knew what he was doing. Strider I believe has said they sounded much better live (actually being there) vs. live recordings. I would think that due to the active pick ups on the Alembics' vs. the passive on the Fender that if anything the Alembics' would be ballsier and punchier than the Fender which has that great warm, rich, full tone. Instead, like you, all I hear is that annoying clacking.

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1 hour ago, IpMan said:

I don't get this either, however there must have been a damn good reason for Jones to use the Alembics'. Jones was a classically trained musician and I would think knew what he was doing. Strider I believe has said they sounded much better live (actually being there) vs. live recordings. I would think that due to the active pick ups on the Alembics' vs. the passive on the Fender that if anything the Alembics' would be ballsier and punchier than the Fender which has that great warm, rich, full tone. Instead, like you, all I hear is that annoying clacking.

I actually prefer the Alembic over the Fender

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Let's get real folks. How do you think EVSD ended up with a soundboard of 3/21? It's called not taking care of your recordings and someone decides to snatch them. Then holds onto them and sells them. 1973 audience recordings sound like 73 boards. But lacking high end. 1975 audience recordings sound like 1975 soundboards with a PA and audience. 1977 audience recordings sound like 1977 soundboards through a PA with an audience, with some sounding flat. I believe they were stolen. But if stealing results in the live recordings being released to the fans, nothing wrong with that. Maybe something wrong with them profiting off it, yes, but for real... music is like a car's engine. An engine is meant to run. A recording is meant to be heard. This is called Trampled Underfoot. Ba dom da dom da doo doo doo doo da da :lol:

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Here's my review of the 3/21/75 soundboard.

 

ive got nothing. There is nothing to say about this release except it is solid all the way through and is as good as any official audio or video the band has released officially. If the band doesn't care about this boot, I'd understand, because they could copy it and release it officially and make 8 times as much as EVSD did. True story.

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7 hours ago, rebeldhipi said:

I actually prefer the Alembic over the Fender

1975/1976 caused an earthquake in Bass guitar world. Jaco changed the role of Bass guitar. Stanley Clarke switched from Gibson EB to Alembic. John Entwistle and John Mc Vie switched to the Californian brand. Prior to the recording of Presence, Jones succumbed, much to chagrin of Jimmy "Who only had a few Les Pauls that could rival the sonic assault of his 4  and 8 string Alembics". In this interview Jones complained his equipment (Fender Jazz and  Acoustic stack) sounded dead.  Jones fell for the more articulate sound spectrum of state of the art Alembic. The SB and AUD recordings don't do justice to the power of the Alembic/BecVar gear. Maybe his sound techs didn't know how to deal with his new GMT/Vega (precursor to Gallien Krueger)  and Alembic equipment. 

This said, I do love Jonesy on Jazz, but I understand he was in need of something new at that stage.

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5 hours ago, Dirty Work said:

ZEPPELIN RELEASE THIS SOUNDBOARD OFFICIALLY

OR YOU ARE A BITCH

It won't happen, forget about it. Jimmy is too much of being a perfectionist to put out just a raw soundboard. Plus the market isn't much oriented in such production I feel. Anyway, if so, this would be the best choice for every serious Zephead we can only imagine.

And they should let the people choose the shows we want to hear. Or at least master some great sounding boots and put them as official release.

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5 hours ago, Dirty Work said:

Let's get real folks. How do you think EVSD ended up with a soundboard of 3/21? It's called not taking care of your recordings and someone decides to snatch them. Then holds onto them and sells them. 1973 audience recordings sound like 73 boards. But lacking high end. 1975 audience recordings sound like 1975 soundboards with a PA and audience. 1977 audience recordings sound like 1977 soundboards through a PA with an audience, with some sounding flat. I believe they were stolen. But if stealing results in the live recordings being released to the fans, nothing wrong with that. Maybe something wrong with them profiting off it, yes, but for real... music is like a car's engine. An engine is meant to run. A recording is meant to be heard. This is called Trampled Underfoot. Ba dom da dom da doo doo doo doo da da :lol:

There was an agreement between the guy who shared it and EV. EV asked him to not to torrent unless they started selling copies. He broke the promise. 

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I got the chance to listen to three songs last night (NQ, SIBLY & Kashmir) & I have to say I'm blown away by this gig, great sound, great playing & everything you could hope for from a 'bootleg' really.

My missus is taking our Son out for a few hours tomorrow so I'll get a good chance to listen to it properly & up to 11 then, can't wait.

I also noticed there are bits & bobs going up on Youtube.

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11 hours ago, tmtomh said:

One small note RE the sound of the '77 tapes. If part of what folks are complaining about is the thin sound of Jones' bass (referenced above), that's nothing to do with the tapes or the taping equipment. It's because in '77 Jones switched to an Alembic bass guitar. Whatever the virtues of the Alembic might be, and however it might have sounded if you were actually there in the venue at the time, it sounds like absolute s*** on both the audience and soundboard tapes from '77. It's not only thin, but also distorted, and with an incredibly annoying "clackety-clack" kind of sound. It's just dreadful, and the only time I've ever heard its sonic problems tamed to a degree has been on an extremely well-done fan remaster of the 5-22-77 Forth Worth soundboard - which soundboard is the best-sounding circulating source for any '77 show.

Perhaps the best example of the Alembic's sonic awfulness on tape is the 7-23 and 7-24-1979 audience tapes from the two excellent Knebworth warm-up shows in Copenhagen. Fantastic performances (especially the 24th), excellent audience tapes - but there's a horrid clackety clack all over them, and for years I thought it was some part of Bonham's percussion setup being captured badly by the taper because of the acoustics of the hall. Only earlier this year did I realize it's not percussion at all - it's the horrible upper registers of the Alembic.

 

11 hours ago, IpMan said:

I don't get this either, however there must have been a damn good reason for Jones to use the Alembics'. Jones was a classically trained musician and I would think knew what he was doing. Strider I believe has said they sounded much better live (actually being there) vs. live recordings. I would think that due to the active pick ups on the Alembics' vs. the passive on the Fender that if anything the Alembics' would be ballsier and punchier than the Fender which has that great warm, rich, full tone. Instead, like you, all I hear is that annoying clacking.

In all fairness, the twang is really only noticeably annoying on "The Song Remains the Same". I don't remember which bass he used on certain songs, whether it was the 4-string or 8-string, but his bass was weighty enough on "Nobody's Fault But Mine" and "Over the Hills and Far Away" with considerably less twang problems.

After that it was practically another two hours before he picked up the Alembic again for "Achilles Last Stand". This song had Jones playing all over the tonal spectrum, so I guess that's why he felt the need to switch to the Alembics. Yes, the tapes make his bass sound worse than they actually did in the hall.

The "Whole Lotta Love"-"Rock and Roll" encore was over before you knew it but the Alembic bass did its job on those songs for the most part. However, the wooden bass he used in 1975 for the encore was far superior. I don't know where that John Paul Jones quote came from but no way in hell did his rig sound "dead" in 1975.

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I'll be trying my hardest to give this new boot a listen tonight.....

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22 minutes ago, Strider said:

 

In all fairness, the twang is really only noticeably annoying on "The Song Remains the Same". I don't remember which bass he used on certain songs, whether it was the 4-string or 8-string, but his bass was weighty enough on "Nobody's Fault But Mine" and "Over the Hills and Far Away" with considerably less twang problems.

After that it was practically another two hours before he picked up the Alembic again for "Achilles Last Stand". This song had Jones playing all over the tonal spectrum, so I guess that's why he felt the need to switch to the Alembics. Yes, the tapes make his bass sound worse than they actually did in the hall.

The "Whole Lotta Love"-"Rock and Roll" encore was over before you knew it but the Alembic bass did its job on those songs for the most part. However, the wooden bass he used in 1975 for the encore was far superior. I don't know where that John Paul Jones quote came from but no way in hell did his rig sound "dead" in 1975.

The 8 string BecVar/Alembic was only used on Achilles and Nobody's Fault, if memory serves me well. I think he used the fretless precision on In my time of dying and the Framus EUB on Bron-Y Aur Stomp and the three necked Manson on the rest of the acoustic set.

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6 hours ago, Strider said:

 

In all fairness, the twang is really only noticeably annoying on "The Song Remains the Same". I don't remember which bass he used on certain songs, whether it was the 4-string or 8-string, but his bass was weighty enough on "Nobody's Fault But Mine" and "Over the Hills and Far Away" with considerably less twang problems.

After that it was practically another two hours before he picked up the Alembic again for "Achilles Last Stand". This song had Jones playing all over the tonal spectrum, so I guess that's why he felt the need to switch to the Alembics. Yes, the tapes make his bass sound worse than they actually did in the hall.

The "Whole Lotta Love"-"Rock and Roll" encore was over before you knew it but the Alembic bass did its job on those songs for the most part. However, the wooden bass he used in 1975 for the encore was far superior. I don't know where that John Paul Jones quote came from but no way in hell did his rig sound "dead" in 1975.

I was so damn curious about this whole Alembic vs. Fender Jazz thing I went to a few bass boards last night and I have to say, bass players are really some of the nicest people around compared to guitarist or drummers. Most were actually tripping over themselves not to offend anyone, it was pretty funny but also very refreshing as well.

Anyway, as usual, it pretty much comes down to what you are trying to get out of the instrument. The players said you cannot even compare these two instruments as the sound differences are so far apart. However, everyone loved and supported both instruments. They explained the how and why the Alembics became popular in the 70's, with the greatest players in both jazz and rock using them from the mid 70's on, especially Jaco Pastorius. These alembics were essentially designed to hold their own against the crunch and assault of a LP through a Marshall, without overpowering the other instruments. It was essentially designed to use the bass as not only a rhythm, bottom end instrument, but almost as a co-lead with the guitar to a certain degree. The players on those boards pointed out that JPJ's three circle series II 8 string in particular is one of the most sought after basses on the planet, with prices starting in the $20,000 range.

Now this is making perfect sense. The bass IS used as a co-lead instrument on ALS & NFBM without a doubt. Also, due to Jimmy's sometimes inconsistent playing during the 77' tour, the alembic in a live setting would likely mask mistakes or faux pas made by Jimmy. There were even a few people on those boards who attended the Zeppelin gigs' in 77' and said, directly, the sound and tone of the Alembics live is what turned them on to bass in the first place. They said when Jones hit those basses, the floor of the arena shook and the sound was incredible.

My take away was this: Studio work was best done with a Fender Jazz or Precision bass; however live work for a prog-rock, jam-rock band or improvisational jazz outfit such as Weather Report is best done with the Alembics.

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Jaco did not play Alembic, Stanley Clarke did (THE other great 70's  fusion prodigy). Jaco was hooked on his fretless Jazz 'bass of doom'.

His finger style playing, emphasizing on the (growly) bridge J pick up and use of rotosound round wound strings made the difference.

The studio versions of 'Achilles 'and 'Nobody's fault' greatly benefit from the 8 string. If Jonesy recorded these key tracks off Presence with his thump Jazz, the result would be...less powerful. So yes, Jonesy moved into a more lead position after 76.

 

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4 hours ago, IpMan said:

I was so damn curious about this whole Alembic vs. Fender Jazz thing I went to a few bass boards last night and I have to say, bass players are really some of the nicest people around compared to guitarist or drummers. Most were actually tripping over themselves not to offend anyone, it was pretty funny but also very refreshing as well.

Anyway, as usual, it pretty much comes down to what you are trying to get out of the instrument. The players said you cannot even compare these two instruments as the sound differences are so far apart. However, everyone loved and supported both instruments. They explained the how and why the Alembics became popular in the 70's, with the greatest players in both jazz and rock using them from the mid 70's on, especially Jaco Pastorius. These alembics were essentially designed to hold their own against the crunch and assault of a LP through a Marshall, without overpowering the other instruments. It was essentially designed to use the bass as not only a rhythm, bottom end instrument, but almost as a co-lead with the guitar to a certain degree. The players on those boards pointed out that JPJ's three circle series II 8 string in particular is one of the most sought after basses on the planet, with prices starting in the $20,000 range.

Now this is making perfect sense. The bass IS used as a co-lead instrument on ALS & NFBM without a doubt. Also, due to Jimmy's sometimes inconsistent playing during the 77' tour, the alembic in a live setting would likely mask mistakes or faux pas made by Jimmy. There were even a few people on those boards who attended the Zeppelin gigs' in 77' and said, directly, the sound and tone of the Alembics live is what turned them on to bass in the first place. They said when Jones hit those basses, the floor of the arena shook and the sound was incredible.

My take away was this: Studio work was best done with a Fender Jazz or Precision bass; however live work for a prog-rock, jam-rock band or improvisational jazz outfit such as Weather Report is best done with the Alembics.

IpMan, I appreciate your curiosity and diligence in seeking input from the bass-playing community. It is always good to have as much input from as many viewpoints as possible.

No offense to the bass-crowd you talked with, but I take exception to what they seem to imply with one of their statements. Yes, the arena rumbled when Jones hit his Alembic bass. But if they are implying that it didn't rumble in 1975 or 1973 with his Fenders, that is wrong. His Fender bass shook and rumbled the building along with your bones just as much as the Alembics did in 1977 (and I assume 1979 and 1980).

But there was a slight difference and maybe this played a part in Jones' decision to switch. While Jones' Fender bass sounds awesome on the tapes of the early tours, especially in 1975, the actual sound you heard in the concert hall was a trifle less articulated. With the extreme loudness and reverberation of the Forum (or whatever concert venue) the bass was more of a general boom-boom presence...a persistent low throbbing rumble anchoring the bottom end of the spectrum. When other instruments were silent or muted (the opening of "Dazed and Confused" for instance), the bass notes rang clear. But when the band was in full roar ("The Song Remains the Same", "Rock and Roll") it was often hard to pick out what Jones was playing in the din. The exception was the wood bass Jones used in 1975 for the encores. That bass registered a little more clearly, especially the upper registers.

Many rock concerts had this same problem...the bass would just be an indistinct rumble in the arena-sized shows.

Cut to 1977 and the Alembics more trebly (and twangy at times) presence announced itself more clearly in the hall. But it also had a powerful bottom end. The problem is, for some reason or another, the sound didn't translate to tape.

So for those keeping score: The Fenders sounded clearer on tape than in the hall while the Alembics sounded better in the hall than on tape.

I still prefer the Fender for some songs...TSRTS, Heartbreaker, Whole Lotta Love. But for Achilles, NFBM, and even Over the Hills and Far Away, the Alembic made sense.

That upright bass sounded pretty sweet, too.

Edited by Strider

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We finally got it and it is indeed an awesome show - probably the best we have of 1975. Now the wait for something from the 1977 L.A. run begins....

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