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Did Presence have a bad mix?


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2 hours ago, woz70 said:

If you're criticising the guitar placement of Presence, why not on every other album too?

Not only panned over, but very low with a bland tone that doesn't carry the songs like previous albums. Add too many effects on the vocals on some tracks, and it just sounds muddy to my ears. Tea For One is a dreadful listen, and it's not necessarily because of the tempo. The tone is off-putting and sounds grey. Imagine the punch some songs would have with a brighter "HOTH" mix (but..but..that wasn't their intention!) Just my preference I suppose. 

 

5 hours ago, John M said:

If you look at Presence in it its actual context it had no broad commercial appeal and I can guarantee you that was not because of the mix. 

I appreciate you typing such an in depth reply, but you'll notice I said "by fans". Commercial appeal is another issue, but I believe this album could've been mixed to stand even with any other album of theirs. A controversial opinion I suppose.

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  • 1 month later...

I understand how polarized fans could be about Presence.General "facts" could be less bass(y) than usual, and a somewhat strident midrange. One thing not mentioned or hardly mentioned is that most of the songs have amazing guitar

architecture, a total guitar army which really hasn't been matched before or since. Yes, there are songs from previous

albums which have amazing interlocking layers, but not the guitar orchestra here. I am a guitar player, so obviously my

view is quite slanted. Even though I also love the songs. Obviously, Page going full blast into his guitar army is not enough

for many fans, and that is understandable But Zep was always changing, although for example Zeplll was not received as

well as Zepll, too much acoustic stuff for some.

 

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On 3/4/2019 at 7:13 AM, pageluvva said:

Not many Zep tunes I can say I hate, but Candy Store Rock is one of them. In fact it might be the only one. No amount of engineering can fix that tune 😉

+1,000,000

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On 3/4/2019 at 12:01 PM, Strider said:

I think all of your nitpicking of Page has warped your brain or your hearing. If you think "Presence" has a bad mix or no bottom-end, the problem is with either your stereo or your ears. It is not with the mix.

Even "Candy Store Rock" sounds fine. It just needed better lyrics and more development into a decent song. It's my least favourite track on "Presence" and in the entire Led Zeppelin canon but it is not the fault of the mix.

To each their own and everyone is entitled to their opinion but you're entering bizarro world with this one.

I think the mix was fine - Robert’s vocals, self-admittedly, were not great because he sat in a chair due to his leg.  No power.  That’s the only criticism, other than just not liking the songs, that I can see - IMO.

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On ‎3‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 6:13 AM, pageluvva said:

Not many Zep tunes I can say I hate, but Candy Store Rock is one of them. In fact it might be the only one. No amount of engineering can fix that tune 😉

See if this helps.

 

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I really do not understand all of this going on about the mix of the album as I always thought it sounded great, perfect for the material. Now ITTOD had a bad mix on Carouselambra but the rest of the album sounded good to me.

To each their own though.

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On 4/8/2019 at 4:54 AM, PeaceFrogYum said:

ITTOD had a bad mix on Carouselambra/

That always struck me as so very odd. Why bury the vocals like that and obliterate the track with the pipes? The companion remix is a massive improvement. I think it could be even better. I still enjoy it (original) though I must say...

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Well apparently Page(??) heard Robert's lyrics and thought they were directed at him, so that's why Robert is so buried in

the mix for Carouselambra., or so many think. I understand the dislike  many people have for the mix of Presence, but

every Zep album has a much different mix than any other album, and to me that's just one more reason Zep was so great.

One can argue that HOTH is too bright, the music almost matches the album cover. If you really want to bust balls you can

go after Hats On For Harper, I mean it sounds like some 1930's-1940's field recording, or something. Well, no other Zep song sounds even remotely like that, they don't want to repeat themselves.

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4 hours ago, chef free said:

My favorite Zeppelin album!  Panned (as usual) by the critics, the local guy said it sounded "like Bonham forgot how to play drums". WTF? 

But yeah, turn Jimmy up!  

Talk about crazy, Bonham does some of his best playing on that album, it is a virtual musicians workshop with all members at their technical best, excluding Plant, not that he is bad, I like his delivery but this is a players album. Bonham plays the whole range, from rock, to jazz, to latin, to New Orleans swing beats. A simply incredible feat of musicianship at its finest without becoming too pretentious. ALS is accessible prog rock at its best, catchy and interesting throughout and not overstaying its welcome.

Damn I love Presence

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10 hours ago, chef free said:

the local guy said it sounded "like Bonham forgot how to play drums". WTF? 

Hilarious - when some clown says that about Presence, it tells you a lot more about their dismal lack of judgement than it does about Bonham.
And no, Presence doesn't have a bad mix. A bit metallic and not much light and shade, maybe - but 'bad'? Fuck, no.

   

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Yeah, I find the bad mix thing rather odd, although Jimmy for sure is getting much more of a clanging sound than a chiming

sound. But there is plenty of chiming elsewhere on previous albums. And as noted Presence is a great "musician's " album.

All sorts of timing trickery and unusual chord and riff combinations.

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  • 2 years later...

Regarding the poor album sales of Presence is simply because the album was way ahead of it's time. Just listen to the influence Presence had on prog-metal (Judas Priest & Iron Maiden in particular.) from 76' on. Most of JP most popular albums from the late 70's into the 80's were extremely influenced by Presence. It is often joked about how The Cult took their entire sound from Presence and especially ALS.

As was mentioned, 1976 was a re-set time in America, Watergate had been put to bed, Vietnam was only a year over, and the stain of Nixon (Ford) was heading out the door. It quite literally was a new morning in America and people wanted to party. This is why disco & funk were massively popular in the mid-70's and the rock bands who wanted to sell albums had to follow suit. Presence was a serious and dark album. No one wanted to hear about the dangers of cocaine use or being laid up in traction, 500 miles away from the wife and kids. They wanted to hear about having fun, getting loaded, and screwing their brains out. 

It's all timing. If Presence was released in say 1981 it would have been absolutely massive, but 1976, not so much. Of course there were exceptions to this rule with FM Rumors & The Eagles Hotel California, but those were accessible albums with hooks and much simpler musical structures.

The mix and mastering of Presence are, IMO, perfect for the album and its tone.

Edited by BobDobbs
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49 minutes ago, BobDobbs said:

Regarding the poor album sales of Presence is simply because the album was way ahead of it's time. Just listen to the influence Presence had on prog-metal (Judas Priest & Iron Maiden in particular.) from 76' on. Most of JP most popular albums from the late 70's into the 80's were extremely influenced by Presence. It is often joked about how The Cult took their entire sound from Presence and especially ALS.

As was mentioned, 1976 was a re-set time in America, Watergate had been put to bed, Vietnam was only a year over, and the stain of Nixon (Ford) was heading out the door. It quite literally was a new morning in America and people wanted to party. This is why disco & funk were massively popular in the mid-70's and the rock bands who wanted to sell albums had to follow suit. Presence was a serious and dark album. No one wanted to hear about the dangers of cocaine use or being laid up in traction, 500 miles away from the wife and kids. They wanted to hear about having fun, getting loaded, and screwing their brains out. 

It's all timing. If Presence was released in say 1981 it would have been absolutely massive, but 1976, not so much. Of course there were exceptions to this rule with FM Rumors & The Eagles Hotel California, but those were accessible albums with hooks and much simpler musical structures.

The mix and mastering of Presence are, IMO, perfect for the album and its tone.

Interesting point regarding timing of release. Some of the post punk and new wave stuff from the late 70s and early 80s was certainly more downbeat so it's very possible the album would have been more well-received if released later. Although when I think about that time period, my brain still goes right to the radio hits of Blondie, Foreigner, JGB ("Freeze Frame"!!), etc - fun and upbeat music for the radio. I agree about the mix and mastering, I think it perfectly suits the album.

Regarding the Cult and the Presence album specifically ... never heard that before! I loved the Cult in the 80s right up through Sonic Temple and seeing them live in 89, which reversed my opinion considerably lol. Their 1984 album Dreamtime is still my favorite. I'm listening to "83rd Dream" from it, and the guitar sound does sound a bit like Presence-era Page. And the whole rhythm of it sounds more than a little like ALS. I wonder if that joke came from the success of "She Sells Sanctuary"? That one sounds to me like a very cleverly reworked ALS in places.

Edited by 1975NQ
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3 hours ago, 1975NQ said:

Interesting point regarding timing of release. Some of the post punk and new wave stuff from the late 70s and early 80s was certainly more downbeat so it's very possible the album would have been more well-received if released later. Although when I think about that time period, my brain still goes right to the radio hits of Blondie, Foreigner, JGB ("Freeze Frame"!!), etc - fun and upbeat music for the radio. I agree about the mix and mastering, I think it perfectly suits the album.

Regarding the Cult and the Presence album specifically ... never heard that before! I loved the Cult in the 80s right up through Sonic Temple and seeing them live in 89, which reversed my opinion considerably lol. Their 1984 album Dreamtime is still my favorite. I'm listening to "83rd Dream" from it, and the guitar sound does sound a bit like Presence-era Page. And the whole rhythm of it sounds more than a little like ALS. I wonder if that joke came from the success of "She Sells Sanctuary"? That one sounds to me like a very cleverly reworked ALS in places.

One word to describe Presence, Esoteric.

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On 2/19/2022 at 11:59 AM, 1975NQ said:

Interesting point regarding timing of release. Some of the post punk and new wave stuff from the late 70s and early 80s was certainly more downbeat so it's very possible the album would have been more well-received if released later. Although when I think about that time period, my brain still goes right to the radio hits of Blondie, Foreigner, JGB ("Freeze Frame"!!), etc - fun and upbeat music for the radio. I agree about the mix and mastering, I think it perfectly suits the album.

Regarding the Cult and the Presence album specifically ... never heard that before! I loved the Cult in the 80s right up through Sonic Temple and seeing them live in 89, which reversed my opinion considerably lol. Their 1984 album Dreamtime is still my favorite. I'm listening to "83rd Dream" from it, and the guitar sound does sound a bit like Presence-era Page. And the whole rhythm of it sounds more than a little like ALS. I wonder if that joke came from the success of "She Sells Sanctuary"? That one sounds to me like a very cleverly reworked ALS in places.

Take a listen to Sin after Sin by Judas Priest. This album was recorded a year after Presence and released almost a year to the day from Presence. The influence of Presence is all over this album and continues to be so right up to British Steel. 

Always been a huge JP fan. They have the best double-lead guitar of any band out there, past or present. I would put KK Downing & Glen Tipton up against any guitar duo, those two are damn genius.

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5 hours ago, BobDobbs said:

Take a listen to Sin after Sin by Judas Priest. This album was recorded a year after Presence and released almost a year to the day from Presence. The influence of Presence is all over this album and continues to be so right up to British Steel. 

Always been a huge JP fan. They have the best double-lead guitar of any band out there, past or present. I would put KK Downing & Glen Tipton up against any guitar duo, those two are damn genius.

Never been super into that style of music (Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, etc), but I'll give it a listen this week. Maybe I've been missing out!

I'll send you a PM after I give a listen.

 

Edited by 1975NQ
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2 hours ago, 1975NQ said:

Never been super into that style of music (Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, etc), but I'll give it a listen this week. Maybe I've been missing out!

Well, JP is really the only band of that type I listen to on the regular. Iron Maiden has some good tunes but I think the writing of JP is just better than the other bands of their type.

Funny thing, I never really liked the way Halford sang until Stained Class. Up until then he was big into going from mid-range to falsetto and back again, it was just weird sounding IMO. King Diamond does the same thing in his singing as Halford used to do and he annoys me as well, even though I love the King, simply because King is a very good writer of music.

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