Best matrices aside from Four Blocks in the Snow?

[ZepHead315]

With the recent release of the matrix of 3/21 Seattle, I've been wondering about some good matrices of other shows. Obviously, I've heard and greatly enjoyed Four Blocks in the Snow, as well as Godfathers' "The American Return" for 3/11 Long Beach, Bluecongo's "King Jimmy & The West Bromwich Blues Band" for Earls Court, and Winston's matrix of Seattle 7/17/73 (even though the 73 soundboards aren't as good as the 75 ones, I still found this one to be a pretty good matrix). Are there any other matrices that are worth seeking out?

[LedElvis75]

1 hour ago, ZepHead315 said:

With the recent release of the matrix of 3/21 Seattle, I've been wondering about some good matrices of other shows. Obviously, I've heard and greatly enjoyed Four Blocks in the Snow, as well as Godfathers' "The American Return" for 3/11 Long Beach, Bluecongo's "King Jimmy & The West Bromwich Blues Band" for Earls Court, and Winston's matrix of Seattle 7/17/73 (even though the 73 soundboards aren't as good as the 75 ones, I still found this one to be a pretty good matrix). Are there any other matrices that are worth seeking out?

Really like the one Porgie did of 5/14/73 New Orleans.

[beauregard]

I personally think you get better results using audio software programs such as ProTools or SoundForge to enhance and bring out the sound from the soundboards..see the thread I started Polishing The Boards. Matrixes for the most part cant achieve what these software programs can do..with the odd exception

[ZepHead315]

On 8/29/2017 at 11:10 AM, LedElvis75 said:

Really like the one Porgie did of 5/14/73 New Orleans.

I'll have to check that one out, thanks!

[porgie66]

2 hours ago, beauregard said:

I personally think you get better results using audio software programs such as ProTools or SoundForge to enhance and bring out the sound from the soundboards..see the thread I started Polishing The Boards. Matrixes for the most part cant achieve what these software programs can do..with the odd exception

I'm no expert but...the inclusion of a true audience source to give space and ambience is a much better option IMO than trying to artificially enhance a SBD with sound program effects if two sources are available. There aren't many 73 board tapes that I can think of that sound much better as a result of sound enhancement. Most end up sounding over EQd, over amplified, noise reduced. There are a few exceptions but most of the time the original flat board sounds better. IMHO, the matrix I did of New Orleans 73 sounds much more enjoyable than any boot release that has been a "remastered"  SBD of that show.

 There are very few shows pre 75 that have a board and audience tape both available so not many matrix opportunities outside 75 -80. Sue Dounim did some nice matrix work with Seattle 77. I'd like to hear hear more from 77 as those boards are mostly very flat and harsh sounding. For 77, I'd love to hear some attempts at Ft Worth, Landover shows or the Garden shows. Those are the only options for a matrix. 

[IpMan]

11 hours ago, porgie66 said:

I'm no expert but...the inclusion of a true audience source to give space and ambience is a much better option IMO than trying to artificially enhance a SBD with sound program effects if two sources are available. There aren't many 73 board tapes that I can think of that sound much better as a result of sound enhancement. Most end up sounding over EQd, over amplified, noise reduced. There are a few exceptions but most of the time the original flat board sounds better. IMHO, the matrix I did of New Orleans 73 sounds much more enjoyable than any boot release that has been a "remastered"  SBD of that show.

 There are very few shows pre 75 that have a board and audience tape both available so not many matrix opportunities outside 75 -80. Sue Dounim did some nice matrix work with Seattle 77. I'd like to hear hear more from 77 as those boards are mostly very flat and harsh sounding. For 77, I'd love to hear some attempts at Ft Worth, Landover shows or the Garden shows. Those are the only options for a matrix. 

Bingo! Soundboard recordings were meant to be a document for the band to critique and you cannot create ambient sound and warmth from a program, at least not yet. The matrix is currently the only way to go.

[bluecongo]

I also did a matrix for Zurich 1980 and Mannheim 7/3/80 

i think they're worth checking out if you like my other work 

[rm2551]

2 hours ago, bluecongo said:

I also did a matrix for Zurich 1980 and Mannheim 7/3/80 

i think they're worth checking out if you like my other work 

I'd love to hear the Zurich 1980 one if you have it available. One of the best TU's ever (along with the next night)

[Nutrocker]

On 9/2/2017 at 8:29 AM, beauregard said:

I personally think you get better results using audio software programs such as ProTools or SoundForge to enhance and bring out the sound from the soundboards..see the thread I started Polishing The Boards. Matrixes for the most part cant achieve what these software programs can do..with the odd exception

I swear by Sound Forge when it comes to tweaking audio. 

[LedElvis75]

Guys-Is there a matrix of the 5/30/77 Landover show?  Looking and haven't found anything.

[paplbojo]

Bump...?

[rm2551]

If anyone has this show (30/05/77 - Landover) in flac's I'd be most grateful for a link.

[tmtomh]

Matrixes are one of those things I try really hard to like, but rarely do. I do like Bluecongo's Four Blocks in the Snow and West Bromwich ones - and his Mannheim 1980 is pretty nice too.

But generally, matrixes underperform IMHO because of phasing problems - even when you line them up with the soundboard time-wise (which can be very challenging since a lot of audience sources often change speed repeatedly and unpredictably), the audience source still tends to go in and out of phase with the soundboard source at various frequencies. So you'll have some frequencies reinforced by the addition of the aud source, but other frequencies weakened. Sometimes it can be dealt with by a skillful ear and judicious use of EQ, but not always.

And while we Zep fanatics have developed "bootleg ears" to be able to enjoy a lot of this stuff, nothing makes you realize how very distorted most audience sources are than mixing them with a pristine soundboard and hearing much of that clarity disappear.

Now, it is true that soundboards are front-of house mixes never intended to be heard as-is. My understanding is that they typically are missing all effects that got added at the soundboard itself - you hear only the effects each member of the band had available to him via his instrument and on-stage amps. The good news is that with today's technology it's very easy to create a very good-sounding (although not necessarily 100% true to what the band's crew actually did at the time) facsimile of the missing stuff.

The more difficult thing with soundboards is that they're sometimes not very well balanced among the band members. If the venue had terrible bass frequency resonances, then they turned down Jones' bass, meaning he's buried in the soundboard mix. A lot of boards have Page low in the mix, presumably because his guitar was really loud so the mixing guy turned it down a bit so the heard result in the venue would be better balanced. This kind of imbalance can be very difficult to correct. Sometimes it can be improved a good deal by EQ'ing certain frequencies that mainly effect just one instrument.

Even with this problem, though, an audience source isn't necessarily going to remedy it.

[rm2551]

I think the Seattle 75 matrix is an improvement. It brings Jimmy's guitar up for No Quarter, and especially Kashmir. The SB literally buries the guitar in Kashmir. Of course, that is a really good quality SB along with a really good quality AUD.

[Boleskinner]

I do like some of the TOE matrices as the soundboards are notoriously dry. As mentioned above the main problem is usually the balance of the instruments. But the balance in TOE soundboards are pretty good and consistent, probably because they were playing smaller venues and less tweaking was required. And maybe because of better technology by then. The balances are most out in the 75 ones I’ve heard. I would still love a matrix of the Copenhagen warm ups in 79. Aside from a soundboard of the LA 77 run, that would be my holy grail.

[rm2551]

SteveZ98 proved on here how much of an improvement can be made on a SB here...

 

Now imagine a LTTE SB was finally released, and reworked to be less dry, much nicer and fuller, THEN, very carefully crafted to Mike Millard for a matrix from heaven. Results could be beyond amazing.

[Xolo1974]

On 29/08/2017 at 11:10 PM, LedElvis75 said:

Really like the one Porgie did of 5/14/73 New Orleans.

That is quality 

[Xolo1974]

1 hour ago, rm2551 said:

SteveZ98 proved on here how much of an improvement can be made on a SB here...

 

Now imagine a LTTE SB was finally released, and reworked to be less dry, much nicer and fuller, THEN, very carefully crafted to Mike Millard for a matrix from heaven. Results could be beyond amazing.

Disagree mate. I reckon the 77 boards are beyond repair. They’re terrible. The Millard recording is great as it is. It won’t be improved 

[rm2551]

4 minutes ago, Xolo1974 said:

Disagree mate. I reckon the 77 boards are beyond repair. They’re terrible. The Millard recording is great as it is. It won’t be improved 

Hopefully one day we will get to see!

[hummingbird69]

I have worked many a sow's ear into silk purses. It can be done but it depends on whats in the recording to begin with, and then relies heavily on the tech and talent in using it.

Someday, there will be computer powerful enough to analyze each and every frequency separate them, make adjustments and recreate what is distorted or missing and then recombine it all into a simulacrum of what could or may have been. I dare say there may come a day when we could see any live show from any band and era we want but I doubt we will all be alive when that day comes.