Nitpicking Page on 3/21/75

[gibsonfan159]

On 2/6/2018 at 4:54 PM, KellyGirl said:

Maybe critique the '77 Tempe AZ show  




 

I don't have that much time on my hands lol. Apart from Achilles, I really don't think that show was too bad, though. Definitely worse than 3/21/75.

[IpMan]

4 hours ago, the-ocean87 said:

I'm not trying to change your opinion. As I said before, I thought like you do some years ago but changed my opinion after listening to other guitar players many hours.

Mindless noodling is what Jimmy did on many late Dazed & Confused versions. If you say Blackmore does "mindless noodling" you may be more  of a blues fan. In the 70's he played a more bluesy style. "the same thing a million different guys do"  is just not true. He has his own style and you can hear that it is him after a few seconds of playing. Blackmore is one of the rock players with the best feeling ever and has NOTHING to do with shredders like Malmsteen or the other Sharpnel guys.

Regarding Blackmore, who I am a huge fan of and I put roughly on the same level as Page. However, one thing about Blackmore I always hated was his tremolo technique. IMO it is absolutely the worse and sounds like shit when he does it. Now the rest of his playing I truly love.

You also mentioned Blackmore reaching his peak in the mid 90's which is about when I feel Page reached his peak as well (96' - 2001'). They are both excellent guitarists who play different styles.

All of that aside, my favorite player is Jeff Beck. No one plays as good as he does IMO however his weakness is in writing, as in the fact he really cannot. Page was a player, composer, and producer. Neither Blackmore, Beck, nor any other guitarist can make such a claim or at least not as good as Page could do with all three.

[IpMan]

21 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

I don't have that much time on my hands lol. Apart from Achilles, I really don't think that show was too bad, though. Definitely worse than 3/21/75.

I give you that

[gibsonfan159]

I actually didn't do this to take a crap on Page, I just thought it would be interesting to break down his playing throughout an entire show. The 75 shows are fun to examine because sometimes he does amazing stuff and sometimes he bottoms out. I guess I'm the type of fan that accepts the good with the bad, but obviously a lot of others think saying anything negative is blasphemy. Page will always be my favorite guitarist.

[the-ocean87]

7 hours ago, IpMan said:

Regarding Blackmore, who I am a huge fan of and I put roughly on the same level as Page. However, one thing about Blackmore I always hated was his tremolo technique. IMO it is absolutely the worse and sounds like shit when he does it. Now the rest of his playing I truly love.

You also mentioned Blackmore reaching his peak in the mid 90's which is about when I feel Page reached his peak as well (96' - 2001'). They are both excellent guitarists who play different styles.

 

Yes I agree. They are both my favourite rock players and easily the 2nd most influential players in that genre after Hendrix. I agree about the tremolo. Blackmore had an awful period in the early to mid 80's where I didn't like his playing and sound a bit. I guess every player has his "slump". Unfortunately Page retired in 2000, while Blackmore still had some good years since then. These days he isn't that good anymore. I saw him live with "Rainbow" two years ago and he was a bit off and the whole band sounded under-rehearsed.

[bluecongo]

Until Jimmy sheds light on this topic, I believe very strongly Page has a physical condition that hampers his playing.  

Tendonitis and/or arthritis, something is wrong.  

As far as nitpicking Page,  let me share a quote 

“Mistakes are the exhaust of the Dream Machine”

Ill take Jimmy dancing on the edge taking chances and screwing up over safe Clapton, or anybody else for that matter.  The dude WENT FOR IT ALL THE TIME 

The last thing Jimmy was thinking of before he walked out on stage in Seattle on 3/21/75 was getting nit picked over a few flubs by a fanboy on the Internet 40 yrs later.  He was like “I gotta rock this crowd for 3.5 hours with everything I got, I’m gonna duckwalk, jump around, shred the fuck out, blow rails and hit the Jack baby let’s rock cuz we’re the greatest band ever”  

go listen to Joe Satriani and be bored 

 

[gibsonfan159]

 If I'd titled this post "A Guide To Jimmy's Playing On 3/21" instead of "Nitpicking" there probably wouldn't have been half the hostile comments. It's just an examination. "Aarrgghh how dare you criticize my favorite band!" 

[IpMan]

3 hours ago, bluecongo said:

Until Jimmy sheds light on this topic, I believe very strongly Page has a physical condition that hampers his playing.  

Tendonitis and/or arthritis, something is wrong.  

As far as nitpicking Page,  let me share a quote 

“Mistakes are the exhaust of the Dream Machine”

Ill take Jimmy dancing on the edge taking chances and screwing up over safe Clapton, or anybody else for that matter.  The dude WENT FOR IT ALL THE TIME 

The last thing Jimmy was thinking of before he walked out on stage in Seattle on 3/21/75 was getting nit picked over a few flubs by a fanboy on the Internet 40 yrs later.  He was like “I gotta rock this crowd for 3.5 hours with everything I got, I’m gonna duckwalk, jump around, shred the fuck out, blow rails and hit the Jack baby let’s rock cuz we’re the greatest band ever”  

go listen to Joe Satriani and be bored 

 

Like this but with a guitar...

 

[IpMan]

Just now, gibsonfan159 said:

 If I'd titled this post "A Guide To Jimmy's Playing On 3/21" instead of "Nitpicking" there probably wouldn't have been half the hostile comments. It's just an examination. "Aarrgghh how dare you criticize my favorite band!" 

It's not that Gibson, it's how you went about it. The fact is even the most technically proficient of players have off night's where they play like shit for whatever reason, even stone cold sober. Then there is the fact that so many people, for some weird, unknown reason seem to single out Page for this yet I have heard boots from just about every major touring band of the 70's & 80's and they all have these periods. 

I have a friend who is a huge Yngwie fan and saw him a few times in the 90's. At one show he was so off he made Page's WS/BMS from Bremmen 80' sound excellent. Dude waited backstage for Yngwie and actually got to chat with him for a bit. Yngwie actually apologized to my friend for the poor performance. My friend asked him what happened and Yngwie said, "sometimes when your off your off and the harder you try to get back on just throws you off even more...no excuse but it happens." Yngwie was sober and not complaining of any issues, he was just off.

Now regarding Page again. I will be the first one to say WTF regarding some of his live playing from 77' - 83' as at times he was downright embarrassing but I chalk that up to the drugs. I mean, how do you go from playing one of the hardest songs (IMTOD) perfect (it is near impossible to go that fast with a slide and not be either flat or sharp here and there), then fuck up one of the easiest like Misty Mountain Hop? 

For me it's not a mystery. His 75' playing was at times hampered by the broken finger and possibly tendonitis but for the most part he was still consistently good and even excellent. By 77' he was erratic as hell thus...drugs. Then by 84' he is good to go again, even if you hate his new style with the b-bender he was still in fine form.

[blindwillie127]

nit·pick·ing

ˈnitˌpikiNG/

informal

adjective

 

1. 1. 

   looking for small or unimportant errors or faults, 'especially to criticize unnecessarily'

   "a nitpicking legalistic exercise"

noun

 

1. 1. 

   fussy fault-finding.

   "nitpicking over tiny details"

    

    

    

    

[gibsonfan159]

1 hour ago, blindwillie127 said:

nit·pick·ing

ˈnitˌpikiNG/

informal

adjective

 

1. 1. 

   looking for small or unimportant errors or faults, 'especially to criticize unnecessarily'

   "a nitpicking legalistic exercise"

noun

 

1. 1. 

   fussy fault-finding.

   "nitpicking over tiny details"

    

    

    

    

Good. Now look up "Sarcasm". Also "Butthurt".

[gibsonfan159]

2 hours ago, IpMan said:

It's not that Gibson, it's how you went about it. The fact is even the most technically proficient of players have off night's where they play like shit for whatever reason, even stone cold sober. Then there is the fact that so many people, for some weird, unknown reason seem to single out Page for this yet I have heard boots from just about every major touring band of the 70's & 80's and they all have these periods. 

I have a friend who is a huge Yngwie fan and saw him a few times in the 90's. At one show he was so off he made Page's WS/BMS from Bremmen 80' sound excellent. Dude waited backstage for Yngwie and actually got to chat with him for a bit. Yngwie actually apologized to my friend for the poor performance. My friend asked him what happened and Yngwie said, "sometimes when your off your off and the harder you try to get back on just throws you off even more...no excuse but it happens." Yngwie was sober and not complaining of any issues, he was just off.

Now regarding Page again. I will be the first one to say WTF regarding some of his live playing from 77' - 83' as at times he was downright embarrassing but I chalk that up to the drugs. I mean, how do you go from playing one of the hardest songs (IMTOD) perfect (it is near impossible to go that fast with a slide and not be either flat or sharp here and there), then fuck up one of the easiest like Misty Mountain Hop? 

For me it's not a mystery. His 75' playing was at times hampered by the broken finger and possibly tendonitis but for the most part he was still consistently good and even excellent. By 77' he was erratic as hell thus...drugs. Then by 84' he is good to go again, even if you hate his new style with the b-bender he was still in fine form.

Ok, how did I "Go about it"? I simply did an examination of Page's playing for an entire show and people couldn't handle their idol being under a microscope. I'll probably do another show. It may be a completely different outcome.

[chef free]

6 hours ago, bluecongo said:

As far as nitpicking Page,  let me share a quote 

“Mistakes are the exhaust of the Dream Machine”

Ill take Jimmy dancing on the edge taking chances and screwing up over safe Clapton, or anybody else for that matter.  The dude WENT FOR IT ALL THE TIME 

The last thing Jimmy was thinking of before he walked out on stage in Seattle on 3/21/75 was getting nit picked over a few flubs by a fanboy on the Internet 40 yrs later.  He was like “I gotta rock this crowd for 3.5 hours with everything I got, I’m gonna duckwalk, jump around, shred the fuck out, blow rails and hit the Jack baby let’s rock cuz we’re the greatest band ever”  

go listen to Joe Satriani and be bored 

 

Yep!  That's called "Music Magic(k)", ya gotta get out there and work the crowd, take risks, dare to fuck up!  That's when you make contact with the other world, become an artist, and make up something NEW.  Here's Zappa's view on the subject: jump to 13:00

 

[blindwillie127]

38 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Good. Now look up "Sarcasm". Also "Butthurt".

Gibsonfan159. Do not give yourself the credit of butthurting anyone, sure, you're fucking annoying in your petty persistence, so if thats your intention then your a top notch troll. 

Sarcasm: 'the use of irony to mock or convey contempt'.

By your own definition, you are a "nitpicking" &"sarcastic" fellow.

[gibsonfan159]

2 hours ago, blindwillie127 said:

Gibsonfan159. Do not give yourself the credit of butthurting anyone, sure, you're fucking annoying in your petty persistence, so if thats your intention then your a top notch troll. 

Sarcasm: 'the use of irony to mock or convey contempt'.

By your own definition, you are a "nitpicking" &"sarcastic" fellow.

Ok, let me also break this down for you. I said Page wasn't great for 3/21 and someone said I was "Nitpicking". To make sure I wasn't mistaken, I listen to the show again and found numerous, obvious examples of Page being off. I put "Nitpicking" in the title as sarcasm, because, it's not really nitpicking when there are several obvious examples. Get it? If your level of comprehension can't go higher than this then just stop commenting on this post. You were obviously upset by the post or you wouldn't have bothered to make a childish comment. Or continue to.

It's a Led Zeppelin forum. If you don't like seeing people talk about Led Zeppelin, then stop visiting the Led Zeppelin forum. Or keep making comments like you're butthurt, your choice. But don't jump into a post like an over emotional child then hint at someone being a troll. Why is my critiquing Page's playing on different shows any different than someone critiquing the production or mix of an album? Or JPJ's hair?

[Badgeholder Still]

6 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

 If I'd titled this post "A Guide To Jimmy's Playing On 3/21" instead of "Nitpicking" there probably wouldn't have been half the hostile comments. It's just an examination. "Aarrgghh how dare you criticize my favorite band!" 

You don't understand the difference between acknowledging and accepting imperfections and listening to catalog bum notes using a big yellow highlighter? Are you that clueless?

It's because it's such a pointless activity that few if any are gonna share the joy you find in it.  

[Doctor Jimmy]

Truth is, that OTHAFA solo with the "disastrous phrasing" happens to be one of my favorites he did for the song. Too many moments and licks where it's just bloody awesome and, yes, I fully acknowledge and can hear the sloppiness

[chef free]

I'll bet it's a look into how Jimmy Page sees these live recordings!

[IpMan]

10 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Ok, how did I "Go about it"? I simply did an examination of Page's playing for an entire show and people couldn't handle their idol being under a microscope. I'll probably do another show. It may be a completely different outcome.

No, you missed the point because you seem to refuse to accept that: A): He was playing with a broken finger, B): Also likely with tendonitis, and C): For someone who is a guitar player you have no clue about what a 45 minute solo can do to ones hands. Did you know that several excellent guitarists can no longer play due to brachial plexus neuritis caused by playing / practicing too much. Ever hear of Vito Bratta? His is a case in point.

To my knowledge Page was the only guitarist to solo for such long periods without rest, plus, play 3+ hour long concerts as well. Every "Jam" band who extends songs and have long solos also have multiple guitarists who trade off and generally do not play crazy fast runs and intense deep bends like Page did for up to 15 minutes non-stop. 

So yes, you are kinda being a dick when you critique a player under such conditions. Are you also critiquing Clapton now because he can no longer play well due to nerve damage? Or maybe when Dave Mustaine fucked up his fretting hand and played like shit for over a year AFTER rehab, would you nitpick him as well?

There is nothing wrong with honest critique, but senseless nitpicking is just boorish and obnoxious.

[Boleskinner]

Welcome to the internet.

[Crimson Avenger]

I had a listen to some of your points. I can sort of see where you are coming from, but with respect - and I mean that, I don't believe you are trolling - I think you are misunderstanding the whole point of Jimmy's guitar style and his approach to live playing by 1975. His phrasings and timings have always been unorthodox, and what you are seeing as hesitation and lack of coordination are simply his self-tutored way of playing. It's what makes him so unique. Sure there are a couple of weak bends in there, but what guitarist doesn't, and we could go back to any unedited show pre 75 and find plenty of examples there too. In 1975 he's thinking on his feet more than before and exploring different directions when he stretches out, whereas pre-75 he's got a lot of it more worked out in advance, even the 'improvised' things. Some things work better than others, naturally. He's mixing up the tempos, time sigs and modes all the time. A couple of your examples of hesitation/lack of coordination are simply where he's waiting for Bonham, or waiting to slip into the same groove as him.

I once played briefly with a guy who was 'properly' trained. Not classical, but he'd been to college to learn how to play rock/pop 'properly'. Anyway, he swore blind that Page was *literally* a *useless* player because he couldn't keep time. And he had a metronome to prove it. We fell out pretty fast, lol. I'm not saying you are quite arguing that, but I think it's a similar viewpoint which places technical precision over innovation or expression. Page's playing isn't about the technically perfect reproduction of a musical ideal - not in 75 or earlier - but about getting what's in his head out onto the fretboard. You make a point about him relying on the same old phrases, but again that's even truer pre 75, and Page's collection of stock phrases - which he is constantly working on and developing in 75 - is surely a degree of magnitude larger than pretty much anyone else.

It just shows that we can listen to the same thing and take different things from it. All good.

 

[gibsonfan159]

4 hours ago, IpMan said:

No, you missed the point because you seem to refuse to accept that: A): He was playing with a broken finger, B): Also likely with tendonitis, and C): For someone who is a guitar player you have no clue about what a 45 minute solo can do to ones hands.

Absolutely wrong. You are now trying to bend this argument in a different direction just to save face. I have said up front many times already that the  likely reason for his change in playing and technique was either due to his finger or the drugs he was taking for pain. Stop trying to make me sound ignorant of that because I'm not.

 

4 hours ago, IpMan said:

 

There is nothing wrong with honest critique, but senseless nitpicking is just boorish and obnoxious.

Now you are missing the point. I originally commented that Page wasn't great on 3/21. People said I was wrong and he was. I did a detailed assessment to see if I was mistaken. In the end, I'm willing to meet in the middle; 3/21 wasn't quite as sloppy as I thought, but it definitely wasn't Page at his best (for whatever reason). Now stop trying to make this something it isn't and move on.

[gibsonfan159]

1 hour ago, Crimson Avenger said:

, but again that's even truer pre 75, and Page's collection of stock phrases - which he is constantly working on and developing in 75 - is surely a degree of magnitude larger than pretty much anyone else.

.

 

I appreciate you looking at this from both sides, but I'd have to remind you that phrasing is about how well you put those "stock" licks together to make the puzzle into a picture. Maybe opinion, but I'd argue he was much better at that press 75. Where in post 75 he tried to improvise too long and frequently got lost.

[IpMan]

6 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Absolutely wrong. You are now trying to bend this argument in a different direction just to save face. I have said up front many times already that the  likely reason for his change in playing and technique was either due to his finger or the drugs he was taking for pain. Stop trying to make me sound ignorant of that because I'm not.

 

Now you are missing the point. I originally commented that Page wasn't great on 3/21. People said I was wrong and he was. I did a detailed assessment to see if I was mistaken. In the end, I'm willing to meet in the middle; 3/21 wasn't quite as sloppy as I thought, but it definitely wasn't Page at his best (for whatever reason). Now stop trying to make this something it isn't and move on.

Word

[IpMan]

6 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

I appreciate you looking at this from both sides, but I'd have to remind you that phrasing is about how well you put those "stock" licks together to make the puzzle into a picture. Maybe opinion, but I'd argue he was much better at that press 75. Where in post 75 he tried to improvise too long and frequently got lost.

As Crimson was politely pointing out, I too believe you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Guitarists such as Zappa & McLaughlin use similar phrasings and runs and are done so to purposely sound disjointed within a song. I brought up earlier that Page had studied with McLaughlin during the 74' hiatus which is likely the result of Page using a disjointed style phrasing at times in 75' and beyond with varying success. There are times he does this (May 18th & 23rd EC in particular) where it works absolutely brilliantly, NQ in particular. Then there are times where it is simply wrong for the song such as many post-73' Stairway solos as example. It worked in NQ, OTHAFA, NFBM, & TUF but using such a technique in the STH solo was the wrong tool for the job as that solo HAD to flow and pace perfectly IMO for it to sound good.

I think the issue here is not that we disagree per se, but that you are seeing mistake where others see purpose. You obviously do not think it worked and that is fair, fusion eclectic jazz type syncopated runs in odd places are not everyones bag. In fact the first time I heard Page do this I thought the same as you. Then I started to seriously study music and guitar and discovered the jazz players had been doing this for years. The whole musical Picasso thing.