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gibsonfan159

Your thoughts on autonomous vehicles?

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It should be noted that there was a human driver behind the wheel, so what happened might have happened regardless of the autonomous factor. But then you have to think that the driver probably wasn't engaged in the driving the same way they would've been if actually driving. So in a way, it's distracted driving. Or is it? Another hole in the "Who's responsible" argument.

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7 hours ago, IpMan said:

. The US is NOT exceptional nor is some unique snowflake, it is a place, like any other place.

I'm not taking sides here, but I think the U.S. actually is a little more unique. It's a nation built entirely upon immigration with a more diverse culture and population than any other. Throw in centuries of systematic racism and you have a hotbed for violence and dissension. Also a prison system that is used to continue the cycle of creating degenerates that will also go to prison so prison jobs will be stable. I'm surprised the U.S. has made it this long without another major conflict. Autonomous vehicles might cause that conflict lol.

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2 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

I'm not taking sides here, but I think the U.S. actually is a little more unique. It's a nation built entirely upon immigration with a more diverse culture and population than any other. Throw in centuries of systematic racism and you have a hotbed for violence and dissension. Also a prison system that is used to continue the cycle of creating degenerates that will also go to prison so prison jobs will be stable. I'm surprised the U.S. has made it this long without another major conflict. Autonomous vehicles might cause that conflict lol.

I admit, in that regard you are correct. The prison system in the US was critiqued as far back as the 1830's when Alexis de Tocqueville wrote his seminal work Democracy in America. Even back then it was messed up. The Norwegian prison system is the best and a model for the rest of the world. Amazing stuff they are doing there plus other European countries are shipping their prisoners there as well for rehabilitation as the Norwegian prisons have low occupancy due to their focus on rehabilitation instead of warehousing, punishment and revenge.

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13 hours ago, IpMan said:

I love it when people refuse to answer the question directed and move straight toward the "what if" and "well what about them" argument to justify their position.

What is greed in the modern world? I will easily answer what this tool would not: Greed is any system whereby proper regulations are not put in place to ensure a level and fair playing field. Simple as that. Capitalism and a free market are not bad or greedy systems, they are just systems, it is certain people who GAME that system on the one hand, and governments who allow it on the other. Simple as that. We would actually have much better results overall with a greater degree of economic regulation, just ask the northern European countries, they bury us in innovation, upward mobility, economic growth and strength, and the general happiness and well being of their populations. They must be doing something right.

That being said, my actual point was more in the line of personal responsibility. We as individuals cannot control the greed of corporations or other people, but we can control ourselves. Even with the cost of living going up and wages stagnating, a person or family can live a comfortable & stable life without becoming a wage-slave. Just don't buy in to all the bullshit advertising, stop buying useless shit, or shit you only use once in a blue moon. You want to take the family out once every few months to the lake? Great, rent a boat for the day. Buying a boat is stupid as fuck, same with ATV's and other toys. You can rent them when you need them and let the other guy pay for the maintenance etc. Do you want a home which can accommodate you family when they come to visit once a year? Screw that, buy a house which fits your needs the other 350 day out of the week and put your visiting friends and family up in the closest nice hotel, you will be tens of thousands of dollars ahead of the game every year. 

The autonomous cars are just the new form of bullshit. Why bullshit? Again, for the reasons above. These vehicles should not be allowed on the streets for testing until they can prove themselves under all conditions in a closed and secure environment. However money is to be made, people to buy off, and as a result we have a fatality. God forbid the representatives we elect, and pay, to represent us would enact serious regulations, no, no...we cannot hurt the possibility of another billionaire making a few more billion, safety and the public be damned...that guy donated to my super-PAC.

You are off your rocker.

This "tool" is one of the most exceptional economic thinkers of the last hundred years, and is truly a "great". Infinitely more was said about you for calling him a "tool" than you said about him.
If you could understand him you would realize that he is admitting to the interviewer that yes, he is right to suggest what he is suggesting. There is greed in America, there is unequal distribution of wealth in America. He does not deny it because it is not deniable! It was not a refusal to answer the question, but addressing a more important and fully related question: Is there another system that is better? And he goes on to explain that anywhere else, under any other system, there is greed and everything else previously described. What he notes, most importantly, is two things: that there is no way yet discovered that improves the lot of the ordinary man that holds a candle to the productive activities unleashed by capitalism and largely* free trade. *That is him saying that some regulation is good! I will remind you that America was a bunch of farmers just a hundred years ago. People died of diarrhea. There may be a lot of "unequal distribution of wealth" but the ordinary American lives like a king compared to much of the rest of the world, even today. You know there is an app now where you can very affordably have someone come to your home, whenever you want them to, to give you a massage? They bring all the table/equipment necessary, you choose the sex of the masseuse, everything. Want to go tell someone in China, or even Sweden, or Norway, about that? I bet they wish they could have it too. My point is not a superficial one about the app, but the point is that a middle income American can afford to use this service. My point is that Americans, at least those who are fiscally responsible, live have the opportunity to live like no one else. Also, Norwegians living in America earn more on average than Norwegians living in Norway, same is true for the Swiss. Second thing he says which I like, is that who are we going to really trust to run a Socialist system here? Do you really trust the people you see on TV saying "I will work for you!"? I trust very few who I don't know personally, and prefer to have as much autonomy as possible. 

In almost all cases regulations make the playing field less even, and less fair. 

Our economy dwarfs that of all northern European nations combined. A little FYI about Norway, since you bring it up. They have a population of about 5.5 million. You realize this, right? It is a plutocracy because immense oil wealth is distributed among that amazingly small population. However, would you like to hear something interesting? They have come to realize that the oil money is not going to last forever. They are going to need to kickstart their economy and get things moving outside of the black gold. As a result, in 2013 they elected a far more conservative government and reelected them in 2015. We'll check back in 10 years. It was an interesting experiment while it lasted, but like all other cases, it will fail.

Wages are going up at a really nice rate, fyi.

I do agree with you entirely the lack of personal responsibility that exists today with regards to personal finances. I agree fully. I would guess that it is highly correlated to a lot of the mental health issues/depression etc facing many Americans.

I also understand that the general happiness of those populations is higher, perhaps, than that here. But there is no evidence that it is a result of socialism. Could be one of a million other cultural factors, and likely is.

 

"The US is NOT exceptional nor is some unique snowflake, it is a place, like any other place. It is better than some, worse than others, it all depends on what you like and want." -- this comment really makes me wonder, IpMan....................
I agree that it is not for everyone, and there are a plethora of other places in the world that might suit certain individuals more based on their likes and wants. But to say that the USA is not exceptional or unique, again, just speaks to what you know about the world, or lack thereof. If we opened our borders tomorrow, several billion people would flock here. For very good reason.

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"The vehicle was traveling at 38 miles-per-hour in a 35-mile-per-hour zone, and the car made no attempt to brake, police said. Yet, according to the driver (yes, there was a driver behind the wheel at the time), Herzberg, who may have been homeless, walked out in front of the car before there was time for anyone-driver or vehicle-to react. 'It's very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode,' said Tempe Police Department Chief Sylvia Moir, 'based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway.'"

 

Just read this. Sounds like Uber got to the police first... lol

Edited by paplbojo

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33 minutes ago, paplbojo said:

'It's very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode,' said Tempe Police Department Chief Sylvia Moir, 'based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway.'"

She jaywalked. She has no case.

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6 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

She jaywalked. She has no case.

I think the argument is less about the jaywalking and more about just how safe and reliable AV's are at this point. The vehicle made no attempt to brake? So they were testing it without the appropriate sensors? I think the state should be responsible for allowing the vehicle on the road. Shouldn't they be testing sensors and safety features first before rolling down the highway with one? People saying this technology is ready to roll out within ten years are full of shitake.

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2 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

I think the argument is less about the jaywalking and more about just how safe and reliable AV's are at this point. The vehicle made no attempt to brake? So they were testing it without the appropriate sensors? I think the state should be responsible for allowing the vehicle on the road. Shouldn't they be testing sensors and safety features first before rolling down the highway with one? People saying this technology is ready to roll out within ten years are full of shitake.

No attempt to brake prior to impact is meaningless. Vehicles cannot stop on a dime.

 

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28 minutes ago, SteveAJones said:

No attempt to brake prior to impact is meaningless. Vehicles cannot stop on a dime.

 

That's still beside the point. And it's not "pointless", because a vehicle with functioning sensors should at least made an attempt. I'm not saying that it wouldnt have happened with the sensors, im saying these cars shouldn't be tested on open highways before the sensors at least show some sign of functionality. If the person had crossed legally and the car still struck her, it would still be the same point.

Edited by gibsonfan159

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10 hours ago, paplbojo said:

You are off your rocker.

This "tool" is one of the most exceptional economic thinkers of the last hundred years, and is truly a "great". Infinitely more was said about you for calling him a "tool" than you said about him.
If you could understand him you would realize that he is admitting to the interviewer that yes, he is right to suggest what he is suggesting. There is greed in America, there is unequal distribution of wealth in America. He does not deny it because it is not deniable! It was not a refusal to answer the question, but addressing a more important and fully related question: Is there another system that is better? And he goes on to explain that anywhere else, under any other system, there is greed and everything else previously described. What he notes, most importantly, is two things: that there is no way yet discovered that improves the lot of the ordinary man that holds a candle to the productive activities unleashed by capitalism and largely* free trade. *That is him saying that some regulation is good! I will remind you that America was a bunch of farmers just a hundred years ago. People died of diarrhea. There may be a lot of "unequal distribution of wealth" but the ordinary American lives like a king compared to much of the rest of the world, even today. You know there is an app now where you can very affordably have someone come to your home, whenever you want them to, to give you a massage? They bring all the table/equipment necessary, you choose the sex of the masseuse, everything. Want to go tell someone in China, or even Sweden, or Norway, about that? I bet they wish they could have it too. My point is not a superficial one about the app, but the point is that a middle income American can afford to use this service. My point is that Americans, at least those who are fiscally responsible, live have the opportunity to live like no one else. Also, Norwegians living in America earn more on average than Norwegians living in Norway, same is true for the Swiss. Second thing he says which I like, is that who are we going to really trust to run a Socialist system here? Do you really trust the people you see on TV saying "I will work for you!"? I trust very few who I don't know personally, and prefer to have as much autonomy as possible. 

In almost all cases regulations make the playing field less even, and less fair. 

Our economy dwarfs that of all northern European nations combined. A little FYI about Norway, since you bring it up. They have a population of about 5.5 million. You realize this, right? It is a plutocracy because immense oil wealth is distributed among that amazingly small population. However, would you like to hear something interesting? They have come to realize that the oil money is not going to last forever. They are going to need to kickstart their economy and get things moving outside of the black gold. As a result, in 2013 they elected a far more conservative government and reelected them in 2015. We'll check back in 10 years. It was an interesting experiment while it lasted, but like all other cases, it will fail.

Wages are going up at a really nice rate, fyi.

I do agree with you entirely the lack of personal responsibility that exists today with regards to personal finances. I agree fully. I would guess that it is highly correlated to a lot of the mental health issues/depression etc facing many Americans.

I also understand that the general happiness of those populations is higher, perhaps, than that here. But there is no evidence that it is a result of socialism. Could be one of a million other cultural factors, and likely is.

 

"The US is NOT exceptional nor is some unique snowflake, it is a place, like any other place. It is better than some, worse than others, it all depends on what you like and want." -- this comment really makes me wonder, IpMan....................
I agree that it is not for everyone, and there are a plethora of other places in the world that might suit certain individuals more based on their likes and wants. But to say that the USA is not exceptional or unique, again, just speaks to what you know about the world, or lack thereof. If we opened our borders tomorrow, several billion people would flock here. For very good reason.

You are entitled t your opinion as am I, however, I have travelled extensively throughout the world and lived in both the middle east and Europe so I do think I know a bit of what I a talking about. And yes, the guy is a tool because he tried to excuse American greed by equating it to greed in other economic systems. That was not Donahue's question, he specifically asked about capitalism. As I said before, capitalism is not bad per se but it needs serious regulations to ensure the free market does in fact remain free, which it is not nor has been for quite some time. Regarding Norway, of course a Norwegian may make more money in the US but our cost of living is much higher as well, which means that Norwegian will keep less of what he earns compared to Norway.

I am sorry if my lack of American exceptionalism upsets you, that is you problem, not mine. The US stopped being exceptional a very, very long time ago. The basic principals it was founded on had already been used in other societies to one extent or the other long before the US was even a dream (Roman Republic, Athenian City-State, The Iroquois Confederation, etc.) so what we established in 1789 was not really unique, just unique for the time and from a European background.

BTW, your App analogy gave me a real chuckle. Thank god we in the exceptional USA are the only ones to have Apps for such services, if the rest of the world only had massage Apps. 

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1 hour ago, IpMan said:

And yes, the guy is a tool because he tried to excuse American greed by equating it to greed in other economic systems.

"American greed" does not need excusing. Resources are limited and people are entitled to want what is best for them and their families. People pursuing rational self-interest is entirely fine and morally acceptable, to me at least.

Quote

That was not Donahue's question, he specifically asked about capitalism. As I said before, capitalism is not bad per se but it needs serious regulations to ensure the free market does in fact remain free, which it is not nor has been for quite some time.

In what way is it not free? If it is not free it is because of the regulations in place. 

http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings

^ USA is ranked 49 in Ease to Start a Business. Who do you think that hurts? A billionaire or millions of low/middle income Americans who want to start a business and rise up? If you want to open up a hair salon in the inner city you have to wait two years to get a permit and obtain 5 different licenses and become certified. Or you can start dealing drugs tomorrow. One should be able to slap a sign up and say open for business. We need to make it easier to start businesses in this country again, and that necessarily means we need to kill off a mountain of regulations that we have imposed in the last several decades.

Quote

Regarding Norway, of course a Norwegian may make more money in the US but our cost of living is much higher as well, which means that Norwegian will keep less of what he earns compared to Norway.

Dude you are shooting from the hip now!

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Norway

Norway is one of the absolute most expensive countries to live in the world! Cost of living in Norway, and all of the Northern European/Scandinavian countries DWARFS cost of living in the USA and everywhere else. Norway is the second most expensive place to buy food in Europe, which also means the second most expensive place to buy food in the world. Cost of living in Norway is 60% higher than in the US, and rent is 10% higher.

Quote

I am sorry if my lack of American exceptionalism upsets you, that is you problem, not mine.

It does not upset me. In some ways I actually agree with you, I hope it can be restored.

Quote

BTW, your App analogy gave me a real chuckle. Thank god we in the exceptional USA are the only ones to have Apps for such services, if the rest of the world only had massage Apps. 

Lol I thought it would! But the point I tried to make with it is, I think, valid and important.

Edited by paplbojo

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1 hour ago, paplbojo said:

Dude you are shooting from the hip now!

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Norway

Norway is one of the absolute most expensive countries to live in the world! Cost of living in Norway, and all of the Northern European/Scandinavian countries DWARFS cost of living in the USA and everywhere else. Norway is the second most expensive place to buy food in Europe, which also means the second most expensive place to buy food in the world. Cost of living in Norway is 60% higher than in the US...

Yeah, he's a typical left coast libtard bleating on endlessly about that which he knows not. I've been to Norway. It's a nice place to visit, but I'd never want to live there. It is expensive as hell.

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3 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Yeah, he's a typical left coast libtard bleating on endlessly about that which he knows not. I've been to Norway. It's a nice place to visit, but I'd never want to live there. It is expensive as hell.

It looks beautiful. I've been to Switzerland, food prices were so obscene I could hardly believe it. It is capitalism, competition and free trade which force prices to their lowest possible point. Those prices are a direct result of socialism.

My family visited Japan late last year. They said it is one of their all-time favorite places, they absolutely loved it. I'm hoping to get out there eventually. They remarked that in the parks there are no homeless people. I'm from NYC, where the parks are essentially homeless shelters. Is this true? Apparently the homeless in Japan keep their distance? Does the government force them out or is it by their own volition? Just wondering.

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You should hear the stories I get from Iceland. Cheap to get there but oh lawdy once you do, prices are through the roof. Which is what happens when you are an isolated island and have to import everything.

Also, unless you love snow and ice, you run out of things to do pretty quick.

I have no dog in the Uber incident but both parties appear at fault...Uber for testing a product in an irresponsible manner and the woman for ignoring basic traffic laws. Risk/Reward. She risked crossing into traffic in the middle of the street. Her reward was what it is 90% of the time...death by being hit by an automobile.

Her family doesn't deserve shit, in my opinion. If they are so bereaved and distraught, where was their concern before? Why was this woman abandoned to the steeets?

Sorry...you don't deserve to become instant millionaires because your abandoned relative thought she was above the law and could cross the street anywhere she damned please. I see these charlatans trying to game the system all the time. They will purposely try to get hit by a bus or car so they can sue for damages. Fuck 'em. 

Edited by Strider

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2 hours ago, paplbojo said:

It looks beautiful. I've been to Switzerland, food prices were so obscene I could hardly believe it. It is capitalism, competition and free trade which force prices to their lowest possible point. Those prices are a direct result of socialism.

My family visited Japan late last year. They said it is one of their all-time favorite places, they absolutely loved it. I'm hoping to get out there eventually. They remarked that in the parks there are no homeless people. I'm from NYC, where the parks are essentially homeless shelters. Is this true? Apparently the homeless in Japan keep their distance? Does the government force them out or is it by their own volition? Just wondering.

Oh, I've been to Switzerland many times...once to see Jimmy & Robert perform in Montreux in 2001...etc. Yes, very expensive. I recall paying over $225.00 for chicken chop suey for five at a Chinese restaurant in Geneva.

No, there are no bums in Japanese parks during the day but sometimes at night. They tend to stay out of the way during daylight hours. There is no begging and panhandling. There are a few bums living on the streets in Tokyo, perhaps as many as 2,000 in total. You'll usually see a few sleeping rough in the vicinity of the Tokyo Metropolitan Government Building and elsewhere in Shinjuku and Shibuya. However, for a city of nearly 14 million residents, their #s are an infinitesimal fraction. 

Glad to hear they had a good time. I still love it here.

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12 hours ago, paplbojo said:

"

Dude you are shooting from the hip now!

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Norway

Norway is one of the absolute most expensive countries to live in the world! Cost of living in Norway, and all of the Northern European/Scandinavian countries DWARFS cost of living in the USA and everywhere else. Norway is the second most expensive place to buy food in Europe, which also means the second most expensive place to buy food in the world. Cost of living in Norway is 60% higher than in the US, and rent is 10% higher.

 

Not quite as you forgot to factor in free healthcare care (the #1 reason for bankruptcy in the US), free education (the #2 cause of bankruptcy), a social safety net, and real paid retirement for all, not just the shitty supplement which social security is here in the states. Once you factor those into the equation Norway is much cheaper to live in the long run.

Its kinda like signing a contract which is all inclusive at a higher price vs. a lower cost contract which includes little and you are tickled and died to death at which point that more expensive all inclusive contract is considerably cheaper over the long run.

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10 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Yeah, he's a typical left coast libtard bleating on endlessly about that which he knows not. I've been to Norway. It's a nice place to visit, but I'd never want to live there. It is expensive as hell.

Hey Steve, how about cutting out the insults, it only shows your ignorance. 

Oh, and Japan is so inexpensive. Spare me. Japan's ever growing working homeless population living in cyber cafes is insane due to the high cost of basic shelter. They don't have that in Norway.

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3 hours ago, IpMan said:

Not quite as you forgot to factor in free healthcare 

There is no such thing! The problem with touting this benefit is eventually you run out of other people's money.

3 hours ago, IpMan said:

Oh, and Japan is so inexpensive. Spare me. 

I never said Japan was inexpensive. I would never say that.

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6 hours ago, IpMan said:

Not quite as you forgot to factor in free healthcare care (the #1 reason for bankruptcy in the US), free education (the #2 cause of bankruptcy), a social safety net, and real paid retirement for all, not just the shitty supplement which social security is here in the states. Once you factor those into the equation Norway is much cheaper to live in the long run.

Its kinda like signing a contract which is all inclusive at a higher price vs. a lower cost contract which includes little and you are tickled and died to death at which point that more expensive all inclusive contract is considerably cheaper over the long run.

A liberal's wet dream...there is no such thing as SteveAJones pointed out!  SOMEONE pays for this and is one of the reasons taxes are so outrageous in those European countries!

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11 hours ago, IpMan said:

Not quite as you forgot to factor in free healthcare care

Health care is "free" — which means you pay in time instead of money. Services are distributed only after endless stays in waiting rooms. Pharmacies are a state-run monopoly, which means getting any medication is like a trip to the DMV.

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There is a video out, dashcam video, of the accident. Looks like @JTM posted a link to it. To me it all but absolves Uber from any foul. It is absolutely pitch black, the lady appears in an instant. Truly she emerges from the shadows. The video pauses the instant before contact, and she does not seem to even look the car's way or flinch or anything. She doesn't see or hear it coming. It is a tragedy that she was killed, but it seems it was her own doing that lead to it.

Edited by paplbojo

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12 hours ago, IpMan said:

Not quite as you forgot to factor in free healthcare care (the #1 reason for bankruptcy in the US), free education...

There is no such thing as a free lunch. 

These items are paid for with taxes and the trillion dollars of state-owned oil.

In fact I think one could make interesting arguments for what they've done, taking the trillion dollar oil and using it to pay for certain items. If everyone signs on and that's what they want. It is feasible in a homogeneous 5.5 million person "city". Maybe there are other ways to do things when you have immense wealth spread over very few people (much smaller than NYC). It's been an interesting experiment. Still, I'd say they'd be better off if they subsidized these industries with their oil money and maintained free markets and less state ownership. Yet subsidies too have major downsides. Also, like cryingbluerain seemed to indicate free does not equal quality. If someone in Norway needs the best medical treatment available they'll fly here to get it. 

There is no way in the world to implement a similar system in so heterogeneous and large (population-wise) a country as the USA, and, most importantly, When the oil runs out the show will be over! The curtains will close on their little not-so-Nirvana! They will turn to capitalism. Take it to the bank (no pun intended). Like I said before they've already started a shift towards more fiscally conservative governance and reelected that govt. Right now they're like Qatar or the UAE with the black gold paying for everything. 

And while I think there could be interesting arguments made for it, and it's an interesting idea I'd love to think more about, as it pertains to their very specific situation, I am still not saying it is right or good. 

I ask sincerely, not with any 'tude, @IpMan Why not move you and your family to Norway if life is better and happier there?

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8 hours ago, paplbojo said:

There is no such thing as a free lunch. 

These items are paid for with taxes and the trillion dollars of state-owned oil.

In fact I think one could make interesting arguments for what they've done, taking the trillion dollar oil and using it to pay for certain items. If everyone signs on and that's what they want. It is feasible in a homogeneous 5.5 million person "city". Maybe there are other ways to do things when you have immense wealth spread over very few people (much smaller than NYC). It's been an interesting experiment. Still, I'd say they'd be better off if they subsidized these industries with their oil money and maintained free markets and less state ownership. Yet subsidies too have major downsides. Also, like cryingbluerain seemed to indicate free does not equal quality. If someone in Norway needs the best medical treatment available they'll fly here to get it. 

There is no way in the world to implement a similar system in so heterogeneous and large (population-wise) a country as the USA, and, most importantly, When the oil runs out the show will be over! The curtains will close on their little not-so-Nirvana! They will turn to capitalism. Take it to the bank (no pun intended). Like I said before they've already started a shift towards more fiscally conservative governance and reelected that govt. Right now they're like Qatar or the UAE with the black gold paying for everything. 

And while I think there could be interesting arguments made for it, and it's an interesting idea I'd love to think more about, as it pertains to their very specific situation, I am still not saying it is right or good. 

I ask sincerely, not with any 'tude, @IpMan Why not move you and your family to Norway if life is better and happier there?

Believe me, I would move to Germany (Munich) in a heartbeat if my wife would allow it. Unfortunately, barring divorce, that is not going to happen as she has two adult children from a prior marriage. If I were single though, or married to someone who did not have such attachments, I would have been gone years ago.

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9 minutes ago, IpMan said:

Believe me, I would move to Germany (Munich) in a heartbeat if my wife would allow it. Unfortunately, barring divorce, that is not going to happen as she has two adult children from a prior marriage. If I were single though, or married to someone who did not have such attachments, I would have been gone years ago.

I see. Cool. 

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