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Nitpicking Page 1979


gibsonfan159

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12 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

The intro is a tad sticky, but everything after sounds good to me. He knocks down a solid solo with good bends and phrasing, ending nicely.

I listened to the Watchtower version just to make sure Winston wasn't fooling me. I don't hear anything out of tune. If you can timestamp some examples that would be great, but I don't hear anything. He even plays the outro better than he ever did in 1975.

I've listened to the video:

 

So my nitpick for the outro refers to the timing of the video:

The part starting at 5:39 sounds out of tune. Could also be because Page playing a bit unclean there.

At 9:12 he picks the wrong note. At 9:17 he plays the chord sloppy. At 9:20 he misses a note and the chord sounds unclean.

Compare that part to the one from Earls Court 24th, as starting here at 7:49, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjfx4TqHVIA

The EC version is played perfectly with much better phrasing, while the Knebworth version is really sloppy at times. It's not even a contest which version, from a guitar players perspective, is played better. Knebworth version is ok for that period of Page's playing, but I wouldn't rate it "A".

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8 hours ago, the-ocean87 said:

I've listened to the video:

 

So my nitpick for the outro refers to the timing of the video:

The part starting at 5:39 sounds out of tune. Could also be because Page playing a bit unclean there.

At 9:12 he picks the wrong note. At 9:17 he plays the chord sloppy. At 9:20 he misses a note and the chord sounds unclean.

Compare that part to the one from Earls Court 24th, as starting here at 7:49, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjfx4TqHVIA

The EC version is played perfectly with much better phrasing, while the Knebworth version is really sloppy at times. It's not even a contest which version, from a guitar players perspective, is played better. Knebworth version is ok for that period of Page's playing, but I wouldn't rate it "A".

I'll acknowledge your nitpicks (except for the "out of tune" part, which I really don't hear) and go with a "B+".

However, that EC version isn't perfect. Page chokes the opening chord to the rock section and disappears completely at 6:24. Then you've got the mellotron which actually is badly out of tune on the outro. 

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19 hours ago, Christopher Lees said:

 

Worst tone ever and definitely not enough overdrive. I dare you to watch this unaccompanied solo all the way through - twice.

I actually bust out laughing because I forgot how bad this was. Jimmy is drunk as hell. You know what else is bad? Jason's snare tone.

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9 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

I'll acknowledge your nitpicks (except for the "out of tune" part, which I really don't hear) and go with a "B+".

However, that EC version isn't perfect. Page chokes the opening chord to the rock section and disappears completely at 6:24. Then you've got the mellotron which actually is badly out of tune on the outro. 

Yes true, it's not perfect. The problem with Jimmy there is that he left out certain parts. Maybe he was too high.  But if you don't play a note,  you can't miss it ;) I was more focused on sloppy notes and unclean playing.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Nitpicking Page 8/11/1979 Knebworth (Welcome to the 1979 Knebworth Festival- Watchtower)

8-11-79-b_0.jpg.c1abe5734d07fa1881a7170805ea4af4.jpgjpj_kneb79_0.jpg.5e8f4db50eb3439fad578c51fbf3d12b.jpgkneb79-kash2_0.jpg.8d61cf3b1933ee0f2d12241386ea2a18.jpg

The second Knebworth show carries a hefty reputation as a bad performance on Jimmy's part. This is listed as a "soundboard" but most likely a video feed. 

TSRTS- Kicks off with a thunderous start, sounding promising. First solo- almost the whole of 2:29-2:58 is an articulation disaster. Plant is sounding pretty good. Outro solo- ....alright, if you handed a guitar to someone who'd never played one before but knew how the song went and asked them to guess at the notes, this is exactly what it would sound like. Everything is here except Jim. "C".

Celebration Day- Sloppy intro. 0:39-0:44, playing out of key. Solo- Surprisingly good. Outro solo- Page attempts some leads for six measures but jumps back into the main riff and ends it. Probably a smart move. "B".

Black Dog- Good start. 1:37, though aided by effects, Plant gets a good scream in. Solo- The opening runs aren't too bad, but he tenses up after that and starts struggling. 4:14-4:18, I don't think he actually hits any notes here. This version is comparable to some '75 versions, but that's not good. At least the delay effect helps mask it a little. "B".

NFBM- Solid intro. 2:05, Jones drops out for a few seconds. Harmonica- not bad, but seems very half-hearted. Solo- Okay until 4:22, where he goes off the rails a bit. "B".

OTHAFA- Intro is played loosely. 1:15, some equipment issues. Solo- The phrasing really isn't bad, but of course there's serious articulation problems. 4:05, some flubs on the exit phrase. Page struggles badly on the outro, but if you watch the video you'll see he had a broken string. "C+".

MMH- Page whips out a different guitar for this (I forget what it was). Plant sounds great here, better than '73. Solo- fairly rough, but he makes it through. The riff repeats adequately until it ends. "B+".

SIBLY- Intro is decent until 1:01, where he trips up a bit. 1:58, wrong chord. Solo- rough around the edges, but otherwise played and phrased fairly well. The last half is pretty solid. I've gotta critique Jones' footwork a little as the bass tones weren't quite as solid as usual, often dropping out. "B", though it's a lively version.

No Quarter- Solid intro. Jones- Pretty standard routine until 5:07, where he plays a very nice, but short phrase. The pre solo jam creeps in very nicely. Solo- 6:55, some surprisingly nimble runs. Page has loosened up quite a bit and playing very well. 8:41, poor articulation. Overall an excellent solo. The return is good though Plant is a little squeaky. Page gets some decent licks in for the ending. "B+".

Hot Dog- A decent intro, though Page's riffing during the opening measures is very loose. Solid verses. Solo- First half is played well, but Page is inaudible after 3:03. Solid ending. I'll give it a generous "B+" despite not being able to hear the solo.

The Rain Song- 0:40-0:45, some strained picking. Again at 1:12. 3:47, someone cranks up the volume on Jones' bass notes. Rock section- Page becomes inaudible. 5:05, one of the best screams I've heard from Plant. 6:42, some off notes and a rough ending. Page was very tense throughout and the bad audio doesn't help. "B" at best.

WS/BMS- White Summer is played wonderfully and moves along at a perfect pace. Very good version. BMS- 4:47, hands tense up a bit. Again at 5:12. "B+".

Kashmir- A perfectly good performance, but man is this mix bland. "A" performance, but I couldn't listen twice.

Trampled Underfoot- Kicks off fairly well. 1:11, wrong notes. 2:23, something is seriously off with Jimmy at the beginning of Jones' solo, where Jones holds off for a couple bars to let Jimmy get sorted out. Solo- He puts in the effort, some parts sound okay, but toward the end it's blatant "fingers stuck in strings". His chording afterwards still sounds dreadful. Jones gets some cool keyboard licks in on the outro. 5:38, sounds like someone pushed the band off the stage while they were playing. "C".

Sick Again- Good start. Page still a little stiff on the chords. Solo- Really not bad. Plant has excellent enthusiasm and sounds good. Outro solo- I knew it was too good to be true, and here's the slopfest I was expecting. "B".

Achilles- Decent intro, though Jones' bass is twanging pretty hard on the high notes. First solo (3:35)- Page does some nifty hybrid picking ont the second measure. 3:54-4:00, a good series of runs. 4:18-4:21, straining those bends. 4:42-4:47, sticky. Second solo (6:25)- Jones and Bonham lock into an amazing groove while Page barely gets through. Third solo (7:51)- Sounds like Page abandons the delay effect and just attempts a straight solo, playing with some frustration. The outro features some cool experimental chording but ends awkwardly. "B".

In The Evening- Good start, but that bass pedal synth is overbearing and very cheesy. Solo- Drowned in wah effect, but not bad. 4:46, Page disappears. Outro solo- Some basic runs before he starts the whammy bar sideshow. I'll chalk the poor impression of this one up mostly to the extremely bland sound of the boot. And it really sounds terrible. "B".

Stairway- 0:34, off note by Jones. 3:28, cool piano riff. Once the tempo picks up it starts sounding really good, with excellent piano work from Jones. Solo- Good start but loses the flow at 5:44. 6:14, some good noodling on the slow part but off the tracks once it picks back up. Fairly sloppy solo. 8:03, the chording on this last part sounded fantastic. "B".

Rock And Roll- Good, energetic kickoff. Solo- A little sticky, but not bad at all. Bonham's ending drum fill is excellent. "B+".

WLL- Solid start. 1:23, solo almost totally botched as Page wasn't prepared. You Need Love is pretty solid overall. Boogie Chillen is played well, with a slightly sticky but good solo. Decent ending. The solo really, really brings it down, but I'll be nice and go "B".

Communication Breakdown- Plant's voice is very rough after he over-did it on the WLL screams, but there's still good energy. Solo- Not too bad, a little messy. A fairly good ending performance for such a lackluster show. "B+".


Final Assessment- If you take Page out of the equation this is a solid, energetic performance on most accounts. But, Jimmy being the all important cog he is, puts a stain on the entire show. Plant sounds excellent, even getting some of the characteristic raspiness back to his vocals. Bonham and Jones are solid as usual. Highlights are an excellent White Summer and a surprisingly good No Quarter.

To be honest, and in all seriousness, I'm actually surprised the 1980 tour ever happened after this show. It's hard to imagine the guys didn't say "Look Jimmy, you're a mess. Let's take some time off, maybe do some side projects, and see what happens from there." I have a personal theory that these shows were taped purposely by the band and intended for a possible video release, but shelved because of the lackluster performance. The fact that they dressed identically at both shows (though a week apart) supports this, and also the fact that it was indeed released years later lol. That kinda makes you wonder about the other video feeds. (As a teenager I paid $45 for a VHS of this show.)

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45 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

To be honest, and in all seriousness, I'm actually surprised the 1980 tour ever happened after this show. It's hard to imagine the guys didn't say "Look Jimmy, you're a mess. Let's take some time off, maybe do some side projects, and see what happens from there." 

Your completely missing the point of their Knebworth Festival shows -- to establish LED ZEPPELIN IS BACK after an 18 month artistic hiatus.   

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24 minutes ago, SteveAJones said:

Your completely missing the point of their Knebworth Festival shows -- to establish LED ZEPPELIN IS BACK after an 18 month artistic hiatus.   

Even more to the point then considering it produced one of the worst outings ever by Page. It should have been a realization that Page (and others) had problems, and those problems should have priority over a tour. But there's no doubt they were eager to show off the new material.

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1 hour ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Even more to the point then considering it produced one of the worst outings ever by Page. It should have been a realization that Page (and others) had problems, and those problems should have priority over a tour. But there's no doubt they were eager to show off the new material.

It's a real shame they never played any other new material like I'm Gonna Crawl or anything else from Presence or In Through The Out Door besides the few songs they chose to play from those albums.

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9 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Even more to the point then considering it produced one of the worst outings ever by Page. It should have been a realization that Page (and others) had problems, and those problems should have priority over a tour. But there's no doubt they were eager to show off the new material.

I agree with gibsonfan159 here. It just goes to show, no matter who you are, you can't be a heroin addict and still function as you did - even if you're Jimmy Page. If this band had stayed away from drinking and drugging and instead focused on their skills, the new heights they would have achieved would barely be expressible by words alone. Unfortunately, reality played out differently. Just imagine if 73' Page was just climbing up the ladder to the even better 75' page, and the 77-80 was even better than that. That's how it could have been.

Stay away from drugs kids.

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11 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Even more to the point then considering it produced one of the worst outings ever by Page. It should have been a realization that Page (and others) had problems, and those problems should have priority over a tour. But there's no doubt they were eager to show off the new material.

An evenly uneven performance by Jimmy.

Over the hills was seriously affected by equipment problems and a broken string but Trampled underfoot was a mess.

i still listen to and watch both Knebworth gigs as they bring back memories of great experiences despite the limitations. Each to their own I suppose.

However I agree that they should have been the catalyst for sorting out the problems in and around the band.

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12 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Even more to the point then considering it produced one of the worst outings ever by Page. It should have been a realization that Page (and others) had problems, and those problems should have priority over a tour. But there's no doubt they were eager to show off the new material.

Well, I don't see where there was a big push to tour afterward. They didn't even begin to rehearse for one until eight months later, and the one they did undertake was relatively limited and small scale. Regardless, the Knebworth Festival performances did establish Led Zeppelin were back.

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16 minutes ago, SteveAJones said:

Regardless, the Knebworth Festival performances did establish Led Zeppelin were back

Well yes, they did perform. But what kind of impression did they realistically make? Were they back with a vengeance or doing the dinosaur rock? I admittedly haven't read up much on the outcome of the shows, but now I'm interested.

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2 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Well yes, they did perform. But what kind of impression did they realistically make? Were they back with a vengeance or doing the dinosaur rock? I admittedly haven't read up much on the outcome of the shows, but now I'm interested.

From memory, Knebworth had a bit of a hammering off the music press in the UK but most fans I knew took that with a pinch of salt - they were back but what next?

After Robert’s comments at Knebworth some wondered whether there may be surprise small gigs in the offing, like the Copenhagen warm ups.

However the changes in British music tastes and the press slagging off knebworth probably contributed to the cut down and less excessive set list for the 1980 tour. A tour that I don’t remember being reported in the music press.

Whether that reduced setlist would have been replicated  if there had been an American tour where musical tastes hadn’t changed as much and the media wasn’t so critical we won’t know.

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7 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Well yes, they did perform. But what kind of impression did they realistically make? Were they back with a vengeance or doing the dinosaur rock? I admittedly haven't read up much on the outcome of the shows, but now I'm interested.

The "dinosaur rock" nonsense came from UK journalists who had become infatuated with punk while the band was on hiatus. The consensus of the fans, presented in the book below (among other places) was they were back and moving forward into the 1980s. The new material was very well received.  

http://www.tightbutloose.co.uk/books-t-shirts/knebworth-book/  

Then-as-it-was-preview-1.jpg

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11 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

I've been thinking about buying that, but how biased is it? Dave always does good work but he usually doesn't dare say anything negative about the band.

The book is a compilation of eyewitness accounts written by fans who were there. Yes, their views and opinions tend to be favorable but again, from a fan standpoint the shows were a massive success.  

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On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 5:19 PM, gibsonfan159 said:

Even more to the point then considering it produced one of the worst outings ever by Page. It should have been a realization that Page (and others) had problems, and those problems should have priority over a tour. But there's no doubt they were eager to show off the new material.

I have to agree with this as the 11th show was a Page disaster for the most part. Yes they only did a short, European tour roughly a year later but the priority should have been on getting certain members cleaned up and a possible reorganization of management if then current management (Grant) could not get clean as well. 

If half your band is out to lunch and management along for the ride, what's the point?

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2 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

If half your band is out to lunch and management along for the ride, what's the point?

Money. Zep were still a draw even if the members were pushing themselves to do it. I hate to say it, but Bonham's death was the perfect excuse for the guy's to call it quits.

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