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Cozy 4ever

Does anyone have any controversial opinions about Zep?

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Mine is that I don't even care for Plant very much, and I wish their singer had been Ian Gillan.

 

This opinion will probably get me roasted pretty hard, but I've gotta be honest!

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I think I've made it duly noted in my Nitpicking threads, but Page was the most inconsistent guitarist of his era. Yes, there are many reasons why he was inconsistent, but that doesn't change the fact that he was flat out embarrassing on some shows in 75 and beyond. 

The 1980 tour should've never happened. The Knebworth shows should've been their farewell.

Bonham is the most influential rock drummer ever. No doubt. He wasn't that great technically though. Real drummers were probably rolling their eyes at him through all the giant fills and triplets. Go ahead, kill me. 

Jones was better than a rock band and would've been justified in leaving. I suppose that money was hard to beat though.

Plant could be an over opinionated asshole onstage.

Presence was just heroin in musical form. Maybe not a bad thing.

Plant was the true hero of the band considering all the bullshit he endured and still played his role with full integrity. Name one instance where Plant was a problem with the band. Ever. The fact that he doesn't want to revisit those days is justified beyond reason.

I would state some other, more personal unpopular opinions, but I've been banned for doing so in the past (Plant and Page's love lives, Bonham's drunken rampages).

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The early shows / (warm up) gigs in feb 75 should have been professionally (multi tracked) recorded, as they contained some songs which were later dropped in the set and rarely, if ever performed again. 

R😎

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Well here is a weird one! Hope you can all understand it! As much as I listen to such music, repetition of musical motives was never something that

fascinated me and even if you might argue, that if Zep's music and music in general wouldn't be done like that, I wouldn't listen to it, it's not really what makes me listen to music and somehow I don't have a tendency to listen to those things, even if I certainly notice them. So I would like that they would write at least a few songs, that wouldn't be based on repetition so much, no matter how much variety and different approaches they had.

 

My favourite song is Since I've been loving you and it's not because of the drumbeat or the chorus chords and phrases, it's because of the intro and main solo, certain screams and drum fills!

Heartbreaker? The solo, especially the live solo. Stairway? The live solo, same with Dazed and it's not for the rather repetitive rhythm, it's for the most complex phrases, that are usually also the most different from solo to solo! Achilles? The drum fills, the solo, the main riff and certain guitar phrases that are overdubbed!

 

The melody or popular Slovenian singer songwriter stuff? It's never the hits and never because of the repetitive elements, I always like something like the intro and the solo and the lyrics and then the melody for being weird or fragmented into many parts or like it for that loud part there or that quiet part there and so on, although in Zeppelin I must admit, that it attracts me more in songs like Tangerine, That's the way, Thank you, California, All my love and similar, but I certainly listen to them because the melodies are more sort off odd and not even remotely Bee gees or even The Beatles most of the time.

 

Repetition, so I read, makes us recognise the song, makes us feel comfortable, takes us away from the 'figuring out' phase, brings the social element, makes musicians play together, makes us dance and so on, but it's certainly also pounded into people with great marketing precision many times, because if you figure out what people like the most, many just go for that and base too much on just that. So I guess I'm a bit weird, but I still love a lot of such music!

 

 

Edited by SamoKodela

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Page played it so safe at the 02 gig (apart from some early numbers) it was like he wasn't there/forgot how to break out at all in a solo/suffered unexpected and intense stage fright. Specifically, Kashmir and For your life are such great songs to listen to from that gig, but Page is completely absent in the solo. Absolutely NOTHING doing.

Peter Grant early on was the greatest manager in rock history. When he was on the junk with Pagey in the latter years, he moved himself into worse manager ever category for getting caught up in all the shit instead of keeping some distance and even helping improve or stabilise things.

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After the Thrilla in Manila, Muhammad Ali was never the same again. He fought some interesting fights from that point (1975) to the end of his career (1980) but it must be admitted now that he was simply a shot fighter after 1975. I think it's an interesting parallel with Led Zeppelin. Plant's range and Page's mind blowing solos on the first 4 albums were out of this world, and the live shows were stunning. But after Plant lost his voice (and even after he "recovered" what was left of it) and Jimmy forgot how to play at his very best, Zeppelin, like Ali, were a mere shell of their former glory.

This week, I was listening to the European 73 shows and they are just breathtaking. Page's fluidity and imagination, his level of inspiration and the energy he played with was truly astounding. Earlier, I was listening to some shows from 71, and Plant's voice is in legendary form. That is Led Zeppelin in all its glory. After that, we all hate to admit it, but....

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Led Zeppelin was a band that when they played well, they were the best in the world, mostly in the first years, somewhat in 1973, but after 1973, quite a few performances were good as earlier concerts. Plant's voice during 1975 was quite hard to listen to and sometimes very embarrassing. The 1980 tour was unnecessary, I think  Zeppelin came to their creative end in the 80's even without John Bonham's death. Plant's voice was far cry from glory days in 1971 and In Through the Out door was not a great album. Also, they should did rehearsal for at least week in 1985 for Live Aid, come clean and tried to be as good as Queen, without Phil Collins, same thing for the MSG in 1988. In many ways Zeppelin was inconsistent band, without middle ground, they were like gods at good nights, or deeply embarrassing on bad nights.

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The best and worst live rock band. "When they were good they were very good when they were bad they were horrid".  Sometimes Bonham is just taking a piss, or deliberately playing random during  familiar improv sections. What if Bonham is cantankerous, uncooperative? Page has to keep it together.. but if Page is stuck in a rut with his solo, Bonham rebels in real time. Repitition was the root of Zep's problems, the set stops being free with the addition of LZ IV songs. By 1973 the drummer is rebelling during jams. DAC goes from improv vehicle to energy depleting dead end featuring frustrated drummer.

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8 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Bonham is the most influential rock drummer ever. No doubt. He wasn't that great technically though. Real drummers were probably rolling their eyes at him through all the giant fills and triplets. Go ahead, kill me. 

 

'Real drummers'?

Jesus wept.

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I find early Live Zep close to unlistenable 

Robert screeches and howls way too much, Bonzo doesn’t always keep solid time.  They were much much better by 1970.

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57 minutes ago, Mook said:

'Real drummers'?

Jesus wept.

My thoughts, exactly. 

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Bill Graham's men should have flown over to England after the no contest ruling in 1978 and beat the living daylights out of whoever between Grant, Bindon, Cole and Bonzo physically laid a hand upon Graham's man backstage who took the beating. What those guy(s) did to that man in that trailer backstage at Oakland in 1977, easily deserved the same punishment in return.

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Wish they'd release more live material for the fans...unedited, including all songs and Plantations.

Think they could've done a little bit more with their set lists in 1975...more PG (ie, Custard Pie, Wanton Song..why they stop playing it, Rover) instead of 30 minutes of Moby Dick/Over the Top.

 

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From what I've heard they were a shadow of their former selves on the 1980 European tour and from the sound of it the audience knew it.  Page's guitar tone and playing aren't what they should have been, Plant is going through the motions with little real passion, Bonzo isn't Bonzo, and Jones is trying so hard just to hold everything together.  Even if Bonham hadn't passed away I think that Zeppelin was  close to the end and Robert was ready to walk away from the band.  After the American tour he probably would have quit.  Maybe they would have gotten back together a few years later but we'll never know. 

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I am so grateful that Robert has had the good sense to never tour with Zeppelin again!  It would cheapen the memories...

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this is all personal opinion and moot to boot.     If you're gonna rate Zeppelin to the point where touring in 1980 was unnecessary, then most bands should never have taken the stage at all. There are some great shows and moments from the 80 tour.  Someone mentioned Ali, He is one of the greatest Boxers of all time not just because of his boxing but because of who he was. His personality had a lot to do with his fame. It doesn't matter that in his last fights he wasn't the same as he was when young. Same for Zeppelin. One of the best rock and roll acts ever and nothing can take that away not personal gripes or even their worst performances.

 

 

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4 hours ago, And You Know How It Is? said:

Bill Graham's men should have flown over to England after the no contest ruling in 1978 and beat the living daylights out of whoever between Grant, Bindon, Cole and Bonzo physically laid a hand upon Graham's man backstage who took the beating. What those guy(s) did to that man in that trailer backstage at Oakland in 1977, easily deserved the same punishment in return.

That would've been a mistake. Bindon had ties to the mafia and he was the exact type of person to do something much worse than give a beating. He was a dirty bastard.

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Jimmy Page seems to have been at his performance peak during the second American tour in 1969, and at times during the tours in 1970. I never really cared for their live performances after that.

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58 minutes ago, mysticman560 said:

Jimmy Page seems to have been at his performance peak during the second American tour in 1969, and at times during the tours in 1970. I never really cared for their live performances after that. 

I happen to think that Jimmy improved all the way until the end of the 1973 tour in MSG. I do know what you mean about those 69 and 70 shows though. Page played with full on energy and power throughout. His enthusiasm was palpable and it came through in his energetic playing. However, you may notice he repeats himself a lot in those early shows whereas in the later shows, he's in command of a much wider musical vocabulary. For instance, in the 69 shows, the shredding part of the ICQYB solo is almost the same as the unaccompanied solo in Heartbreaker. And the single string shredding he does in DAC after the initial bars of the solo is repeated again in HMMT, maybe even twice. I think he did less of that as time went on, but from 75 onward, his licks vocabulary shrunk again.

As luck would have it, I listened just yesterday to the whole show from Paris, Oct 1969. It's a great example of 69 Zeppelin. In my opinion, one of their best from that year.

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Having never seen Zeppelin live, I have to say my only gripe is I wasn’t there. Led Zeppelin is the best band hands down.

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1975 is my second least favorite live year for the band after 1980. With the exception of the January shows and (to a lesser degree) the Earls Court gigs, the setlist is probably the most stale and boring setlist they ever did. Page and especially Plant are shadows of their former selves and there seems to be a lack of enthusiasm in many of the shows. That's not to say there aren't terrific moments and shows throughout the year, but it's a year that I rarely revisit.

In spite of all of its well known flaws, the 77 tour is one of my personal favorites. There's something about listening to Zep when they were on top of the world, smacked out of their minds, and being the collosal dinosaurs that they were that is appealing to me. In fact, were it not for the drum and noise solos being back to back, this tour's setlist would be my favorite.

Going to California, Bonzo's Birthday Party, and the Earls Court gigs are overrated in my opinion. I think the excellent sound quality they have has led to a bias amongst many people. There are better shows from those respective eras. The May 24th Earls Court gig in particular is maybe the most overrated Zeppelin show ever. So many praise it as one of the best gigs of 75, when, to me, the first half is actually below average and the playing doesn't truly pick up steam until Trampled Underfoot. I will admit that The Rain Song, TUF, Dazed, Stairway, and WLL are great versions, but the rest of the show is mediocre to me.

I've never liked What Is and What Should Never Be live. 

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