Does anyone have any controversial opinions about Zep?

[Christopher Lees]

2 hours ago, dandak said:

3. I think plant would be a nobody if Jimmy didnt find him and while he owes us nothing, he does owe almost everything to Jimmy. Plants own words...he was disillusioned with his lack of success...he was going to try one more time. Then along came Jimmy. He showed a total lack of gratitude towards Jimmy after Zep disbanded.

It's as though I wrote this. I think you are spot on. And I do mean SPOT on.

[The Old Hermit]

13 hours ago, dandak said:

 I think a break after Bonhams death was appropriate and needed. I think they should have gone on with a different drummer after a few years break. Or better yet, once Jason came of age rebanded with him.

Probably a break BEFORE Bonzo's death would have been more fitting - the guy really did not want to go back out on tour, that much is obvious - but hey, that's a hindsight issue and they were different (better?) times...it's also clear that both Jimmy and Peter Grant desperately wanted Zeppelin back on the road in the lucrative/high profile U.S. and worked on Percy to achieve that objective... it's just a pity that Bonzo was the weak link they never counted on breaking, alas...

[PeaceFrogYum]

24 minutes ago, The Old Hermit said:

Probably a break BEFORE Bonzo's death would have been more fitting - the guy really did not want to go back out on tour, that much is obvious - but hey, that's a hindsight issue and they were different (better?) times...it's also clear that both Jimmy and Peter Grant desperately wanted Zeppelin back on the road in the lucrative/high profile U.S. and worked on Percy to achieve that objective... it's just a pity that Bonzo was the weak link they never counted on breaking, alas...

Yep, my three biggest critiques are as follows:

Should have given Grant an ultimatum in 74' - Swan Song is yours to manage, don't do drugs (yes hypocritical but still an employee), we will get a new, capable road manager going forward.

Should have added a second guitarist for live shows in 75' due to the overly demanding nature of post Zep IV tunes live. Demand all band members manage their "vices and be professional while on-stage."

Should have gone on a several year hiatus beginning in 80' and not even have done the European tour. If Steely Dan can release albums and not tour, why not Zep?

 

I know...never woulda happened.

 

[gibsonfan159]

2 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

Should have added a second guitarist for live shows in 75' due to the overly demanding nature of post Zep IV tunes live

I don't think it was a case of anything being over demanding. It was more that songs like TYG sounded thin without some rhythm guitar. Although I don't think Jones'contribution made a difference anyway. So my controversial opinion is that Jones should've tossed that three necked turkey (which looked ridiculous anyway) in the trash and just provided Page with a bass line instead.

[gibsonfan159]

17 hours ago, dandak said:

I can't stand the early live Zep concerts either, like someone earlier posted. I find myself embarrassed FOR plant with all the weird noises he makes.

I thought the same the first time I saw TSRTS Dazed and Confused. Plant trying to mimic Page's playing near the end with dying cat sounds made me cringe hard core. I was like "Stop already, geez".

[the chase]

On 1/30/2019 at 6:46 AM, Mook said:

'Real drummers'?

Jesus wept.

Amen.  Typical opinion of certain Jazz snobs. 

There’s good and bad in all genres.. John Bonham was among the very best in his.. I watched a drumming phenom like Dennis Chambers go on about the greatness of John Bonham after a jaw dropping drum clinic. I was pleasantly surprised he didn’t jump on the pretentious wagon by dumping on the “rock guy”.  It was obvious he was an admirer. 

Bonham’s rare combination of immense power, technique and restraint are what made him so great. 

[the chase]

On 2/6/2019 at 11:24 PM, tyler19 said:

Bonham brought all the technicality to the music that was required. We will never know if  there was more to him than he was able to put to use in Led Zeppelin. An expert uses the technique required to get the job done, Bonham did that in spades. Within his genre he is the most revered drummer there is, and only Keith Moon was more original within the genre. Charlie Watts does nothing flashy and I have no idea about his technique but his feel for the Stones is immaculate. 

Nice. I wish I saw this before my post. Spot on. 

[gibsonfan159]

3 hours ago, the chase said:

Typical opinion of certain Jazz snobs. 

I'll be the first to admit that sounded overly harsh, but it was poor wording on my part. 

And again, no one on here is even attempting to understand my point. It's all "How dare you!" comments.

[the chase]

26 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

I'll be the first to admit that sounded overly harsh, but it was poor wording on my part. 

And again, no one on here is even attempting to understand my point. It's all "How dare you!" comments.

No i get it. It’s apples and oranges though. Jazz to Rock. In a lot of ways, John  Bonham was strongly influenced by the Jazz greats. The way he tuned his kit, the way his drums were mic’d in the studio, and some elements of his drum solos were heavily inspired by Jazz players.  But he also had Funk Blues and Soul in his style. John Bonham led with his feet.. He had incredible feet. Most Jazz players or the Ginger Baker type Jazz Rock players lead with their hands. The feet for the most part just kind of go with it. Not all but most lead with their hands.  They are very different approaches to playing and I wouldn’t say one is better than the other.  

Besides John Bonham was only 32 when he died. Some...most of the main performances people point to of his were layed down when he was really just  a kid... a young man. He was 20 when he played the Bass Drum pattern on Good Times Bad Times.  

To knock him for not having had the technique of a phenomenal player like a 60 year old Vinnie Colauita is kind of a cheap shot. 

[Paganini]

Another gripe of mine is ITTOD —Christ what a mess of an album that is!!  The vocals are buried in the mix so far down they need to be fracked out. Why the hell Hot Dog and All My Love -simply the two worst ever Zep tracks were included and cracking tracks Darlene, Ozone Baby and Wearing & Tearing were left off simply baffles me!  In fact if I ever get to meet Jimmy that would be my number one question -apart from why didn’t he just bin Plant after the O2 gig and find somebody who was interested.

[Christopher Lees]

1 hour ago, Paganini said:

Another gripe of mine is ITTOD —Christ what a mess of an album that is!!  The vocals are buried in the mix so far down they need to be fracked out. Why the hell Hot Dog and All My Love -simply the two worst ever Zep tracks were included and cracking tracks Darlene, Ozone Baby and Wearing & Tearing were left off simply baffles me!  In fact if I ever get to meet Jimmy that would be my number one question -apart from why didn’t he just bin Plant after the O2 gig and find somebody who was interested.

This album has grown on me over time. For many years, I hated Hot Dog! I used to wait up every night until 10:00 so I could hear the local radio station play Get The Led Out, three Zeppelin tunes back to back to back. I didn't have all the tapes back then (not yet) so I had a blank in the radio with my finger on the button in case they played a song I didn't have yet. I can't tell you how many times they played HOT DOG! I used to get so pissed off about it. Then, years later when I saw them perform it on the Knebworth gig, I had a different feeling about it. Then it got stuck in my head and I listened to it 1000 times in a row. Go figure. I think All of my Love is a great song. I love Jimmy's wimpy bends in the verses and I love the guitar tracks throughout. I think Plant's vocals are great too. The keyboard fits right in with the times that the album was made in.

I'm gonna crawl has one of my favorite Page solos. I think it's a masterpiece and we're lucky he pulled it off in the state he was in. Fool in the Rain I think is a great tune! It's so happy and it always lifts me up. The solo is pure genius. To this day, I can't tell if it's great or terrible! Of course, In the Evening has the old Zeppelin magic all over it and South Bound Sourez was developed out of those piano jams during No Quarter in 1977.

For me, the two worst songs are Wearing and Tearing and Candy Store Rock.

[Paganini]

33 minutes ago, Christopher Lees said:

This album has grown on me over time. For many years, I hated Hot Dog! I used to wait up every night until 10:00 so I could hear the local radio station play Get The Led Out, three Zeppelin tunes back to back to back. I didn't have all the tapes back then (not yet) so I had a blank in the radio with my finger on the button in case they played a song I didn't have yet. I can't tell you how many times they played HOT DOG! I used to get so pissed off about it. Then, years later when I saw them perform it on the Knebworth gig, I had a different feeling about it. Then it got stuck in my head and I listened to it 1000 times in a row. Go figure. I think All of my Love is a great song. I love Jimmy's wimpy bends in the verses and I love the guitar tracks throughout. I think Plant's vocals are great too. The keyboard fits right in with the times that the album was made in.

I'm gonna crawl has one of my favorite Page solos. I think it's a masterpiece and we're lucky he pulled it off in the state he was in. Fool in the Rain I think is a great tune! It's so happy and it always lifts me up. The solo is pure genius. To this day, I can't tell if it's great or terrible! Of course, In the Evening has the old Zeppelin magic all over it and South Bound Sourez was developed out of those piano jams during No Quarter in 1977.

For me, the two worst songs are Wearing and Tearing and Candy Store Rock.

Your first instinct to hate Hot Dog was correct, it’s a joke song that used to cause me immense embarrassment as a Zep fan back in ‘79 amongst my other rock loving mates. All My Love is  just plain awful -so bad in fact Jimmy didn’t even put his name to it .....so bad that my wife -who can’t stand Zep -actually likes it!

Edited February 9, 2019 by Paganini

[the chase]

1 hour ago, Paganini said:

Your first instinct to hate Hot Dog was correct, it’s a joke song that used to cause me immense embarrassment as a Zep fan back in ‘79 amongst my other rock loving mates. All My Love is  just plain awful -so bad in fact Jimmy didn’t even put his name to it .....so bad that my wife -who can’t stand Zep -actually likes it!

You think Jimmy Page didn’t put his name to All My Love because he thought it was a bad song? I’ve never heard that before. As far as I know, he didn’t help write it. If he could have taken a credit, he would have. He took a credit for LA Drone.

All My Love was Robert’s (1st) tribute to Karac. There are feelings in the song that are very deep. Page wouldn’t have had the nerve to imply that it was so bad that he wouldn’t take a credit. I’ve heard him say it wasn’t the direction he (or Bonham) wanted the band to go in. But I also feel he respected and understood what Robert was going through enough to want to include it on the album. 

Same thing happened to me as Christopher Lees with Hot Dog. I saw the Knebworth video and gained a new appreciation for it. Still not one of my favorites, but it is kind of fun to play on the drums.

 

Edited February 9, 2019 by the chase

[CherrySunburstWorshiper]

On 1/29/2019 at 8:36 PM, gibsonfan159 said:

I think I've made it duly noted in my Nitpicking threads, but Page was the most inconsistent guitarist of his era. Yes, there are many reasons why he was inconsistent, but that doesn't change the fact that he was flat out embarrassing on some shows in 75 and beyond. 

The 1980 tour should've never happened. The Knebworth shows should've been their farewell.

Bonham is the most influential rock drummer ever. No doubt. He wasn't that great technically though. Real drummers were probably rolling their eyes at him through all the giant fills and triplets. Go ahead, kill me. 

Jones was better than a rock band and would've been justified in leaving. I suppose that money was hard to beat though.

Plant could be an over opinionated asshole onstage.

Presence was just heroin in musical form. Maybe not a bad thing.

Plant was the true hero of the band considering all the bullshit he endured and still played his role with full integrity. Name one instance where Plant was a problem with the band. Ever. The fact that he doesn't want to revisit those days is justified beyond reason.

I would state some other, more personal unpopular opinions, but I've been banned for doing so in the past (Plant and Page's love lives, Bonham's drunken rampages).

Why are you even here?

You clearly don't get it, yet you use Jimmy for your avatar...

Jimmy is a phenom and with that means he has a camera taking video every time he plays. You want pretty? Follow Clapton. Jimmy is different. He NEEDS the communion on stage because that's what feeds the stellar performances. Without it, you don't get there. Hendrix and Clapton both have less than stellar performances on youtube and somehow it gets overlooked. Jimmy, less active than Clapton, has more video in general because of the shear number of cameras on him, again, because of the phenom. Remember, the Greatful Dead's following was not created by themselves. That was LZ's following, it started with Led Zeppelin. So if you want to knock him for incosistency, that's your right to do so. But you advertising your ignorance. If you knock him for his venture into the avant garde, again, your god given right to do so, but again, advertising your ignorance because there's versions of songs from 75-80 that surpass any other. And then there's The Black Crowes and Page & Plant shows that produced, yet again, versions of songs that were already done the best they could have been, or so we thought. Like In My Time Of Dying, WIAWSNB and even the sacrosanct Heartbreaker with the Crowes and Thank You and SIBLY with P&P and let's not forget the 02 with For Your Life & Black Dog, both took down the house. I prefer guys like Jimmy and John Frusciante to Eric Clapton and John Mayer because they need to "feel" it or the magic doesn't happen, not despite that fact. Clapton and Mayer can play mistake free all day long, but aside from his Cream days or the MTV Unplugged, Clapton has few Stellar moments that make me want to tune in. And Clapton himself refers to his playing during the Cream years as some of his worst, I would point to his work with Roger Waters.  Mayer has yet to hit a note that made me want to hear more and his biggest hit is not even guitar driven. I'm sure their fans would disagree and that's okay. Objectively I cannot argue if any of the names I've mentioned are listed as the greatest of all time, by anyone. They have the chops and the track record. Frusciante makes mistakes, but RHCP's are not Star Wars status like Led Zeppelin, so nobody notices. That is to say, Star Wars has been around for 40 years and watched intensely by millions who dissect every word and if someone changes a single word, a million people cry victim. But, it is simply is a matter of taste. My question is: It clearly is not your taste, so again, why are you here? Star Wars recently turned their protagonist into a failed washed-up has been. I loved that character my whole life and cannot look at him the same way again. I'm not mad about it. I simply stopped watching...

Why haven't you?

 

 

Edited February 9, 2019 by CherrySunburstWorshiper
spelling

[JTM]

2 hours ago, CherrySunburstWorshiper said:

Why are you even here?

You clearly don't get it, yet you use Jimmy for your avatar...

Jimmy is a phenom and with that means he has a camera taking video every time he plays. You want pretty? Follow Clapton. Jimmy is different. He NEEDS the communion on stage because that's what feeds the stellar performances. Without it, you don't get there. Hendrix and Clapton both have less than stellar performances on youtube and somehow it gets overlooked. Jimmy, less active than Clapton, has more video in general because of the shear number of cameras on him, again, because of the phenom. Remember, the Greatful Dead's following was not created by themselves. That was LZ's following, it started with Led Zeppelin. So if you want to knock him for incosistency, that's your right to do so. But you advertising your ignorance. If you knock him for his venture into the avant garde, again, your god given right to do so, but again, advertising your ignorance because there's versions of songs from 75-80 that surpass any other. And then there's The Black Crowes and Page & Plant shows that produced, yet again, versions of songs that were already done the best they could have been, or so we thought. Like In My Time Of Dying, WIAWSNB and even the sacrosanct Heartbreaker with the Crowes and Thank You and SIBLY with P&P and let's not forget the 02 with For Your Life & Black Dog, both took down the house. I prefer guys like Jimmy and John Frusciante to Eric Clapton and John Mayer because they need to "feel" it or the magic doesn't happen, not despite that fact. Clapton and Mayer can play mistake free all day long, but aside from his Cream days or the MTV Unplugged, Clapton has few Stellar moments that make me want to tune in. And Clapton himself refers to his playing during the Cream years as some of his worst, I would point to his work with Roger Waters.  Mayer has yet to hit a note that made me want to hear more and his biggest hit is not even guitar driven. I'm sure their fans would disagree and that's okay. Objectively I cannot argue if any of the names I've mentioned are listed as the greatest of all time, by anyone. They have the chops and the track record. Frusciante makes mistakes, but RHCP's are not Star Wars status like Led Zeppelin, so nobody notices. That is to say, Star Wars has been around for 40 years and watched intensely by millions who dissect every word and if someone changes a single word, a million people cry victim. But, it is simply is a matter of taste. My question is: It clearly is not your taste, so again, why are you here? Star Wars recently turned their protagonist into a failed washed-up has been. I loved that character my whole life and cannot look at him the same way again. I'm not mad about it. I simply stopped watching...

Why haven't you?

 

 

Psst, have you noticed the thread title, I don't think you have..

[Christopher Lees]

9 hours ago, Paganini said:

.....so bad that my wife -who can’t stand Zep -actually likes it!

Funny you should say that! I used to hate The Crunge from the time I first heard when I was a kid until my mid 30s. I had a girlfriend in my 30s who didn't like Zeppelin or any cool music for that matter. She was younger than me and into Eminem and rap - freakin horrible. We'd listen to Zeppelin in the car (my choice of course) on long rides to the beach, and wouldn't you know it, every time we came to a solo, she would turn to me and start talking or asking questions about something. Girlfriend can sit silently for 11 minutes straight and as soon as a solo comes on it's yak yak yak.

Anyhow, one day we were listening to HOTH and The Crunge comes on. She said, "Who's this? Yeah! This is cool!" and she cranked it up. We she'd use my car to go to the store or whatever, I could hear her pulling up later with TC blasting. When we went on long rides, she made me play TC.

Here's the thing. I started to like the song! I played it myself over and over again and somehow developed a sincere appreciation for it. Well, that girlfriend is long gone but I still got The Crunge!

[Christopher Lees]

7 hours ago, the chase said:

Same thing happened to me as Christopher Lees with Hot Dog. I saw the Knebworth video and gained a new appreciation for it. Still not one of my favorites, but it is kind of fun to play on the drums.

It's actually a lot of fun to play on the guitar too. It's also cool if you slow it way down to a crawl and play it something like a country blues. I've played in various Zeppelin cover bands over the years and no one ever suggested we play Hot Dog, except me, and I used to HATE that song. But something funny happens when the band starts playing it. If you look around, after the song gets off the ground, everybody has a smile on his face and they all get a kick out of playing it. It's a fun song.

You know, Zeppelin doesn't always have to be serious, pensive, foreboding, reflective, sexual or mystical. Zeppelin can be lighthearted and fun too.

[Paganini]

Sorry ..but no one will ever convince me Hot Dog and All My Love are anything other then at best very poor tracks that should have been dropped from ITTOD and replaced with Either/or Darlene, Ozone Baby or Wearing & Tearing.

[the chase]

19 minutes ago, Paganini said:

Sorry ..but no one will ever convince me Hot Dog and All My Love are anything other then at best very poor tracks that should have been dropped from ITTOD and replaced with Either/or Darlene, Ozone Baby or Wearing & Tearing.

I won’t try to change your opinion. This is mine.. 

Hot Dog.. possibly... I prefer Darlene .. but I’ll always trust Jimmy’s decisions as a producer..

Wearing and Tearing would have been way out of place.... moreso than even Hot Dog. Ozone Baby was a side opener. In The Evening and Carouselambra were much much better for that...I’m not quite sure Darlene would have fit after FITR... or as a side closer... maybe maybe not.. 

As far as All My Love... no way.  Way too important a song to Robert Plant. Besides being a beautiful tribute to his son and family, it was and still is a very popular radio cut. 

[tyler19]

The biggest mistake Jimmy made as a producer was not including his outro solo in All of My Love. The solo transforms the song to so much more than what is on record. 

Hot Dog was a D'yer Mak'r like cut that was not executed nearly as well, with Bonham being the weak link. 

[paplbojo]

1 hour ago, Paganini said:

Sorry ..but no one will ever convince me Hot Dog and All My Love are anything other then at best very poor tracks that should have been dropped from ITTOD and replaced with Either/or Darlene, Ozone Baby or Wearing & Tearing.

What is it about All My Love that you think makes it such a poor track?

[gibsonfan159]

23 hours ago, the chase said:

No i get it. It’s apples and oranges though. Jazz to Rock. In a lot of ways, John  Bonham was strongly influenced by the Jazz greats. The way he tuned his kit, the way his drums were mic’d in the studio, and some elements of his drum solos were heavily inspired by Jazz players.  But he also had Funk Blues and Soul in his style. John Bonham led with his feet.. He had incredible feet. Most Jazz players or the Ginger Baker type Jazz Rock players lead with their hands. The feet for the most part just kind of go with it. Not all but most lead with their hands.  They are very different approaches to playing and I wouldn’t say one is better than the other.  

Besides John Bonham was only 32 when he died. Some...most of the main performances people point to of his were layed down when he was really just  a kid... a young man. He was 20 when he played the Bass Drum pattern on Good Times Bad Times.  

To knock him for not having had the technique of a phenomenal player like a 60 year old Vinnie Colauita is kind of a cheap shot. 

No, you don't get it. My original comment didn't mention anything about jazz, it just got pushed in that direction. And it keeps getting pushed around in different directions because nobody gets it or won't accept my controversial opinion.

[Christopher Lees]

When it comes to replacing tracks on ITTOD, I would replace Carouselambra, which is over 10 minutes long, with Ozone Baby and Darlene.  I think Southbound Saurez is almost a good song but the harmonies on the vocals  turns me off. I do like the way the verse sets up the chorus though and when the chorus comes in, it does satisfy to some extent.

[the chase]

On 2/5/2019 at 11:47 AM, gibsonfan159 said:

Go watch a few proper jazz and swing drummers and you'll realize Bonzo did little more than steal their beats and add muscle to them to sound more impressive in the rock world. But on a technical proficiency level, he was a few notches below. I can't make you understand truly sophisticated drumming techniques, but this is true. The "Fool In The Rain"  beat is nothing more than a Purdie shuffle played in a pop context. (What's that? Bonham "borrowed" riffs too?)

Now with that said, you need to understand my original comment. In no way shape or form am I discrediting what Bonzo did and achieved. I'm just saying that I get tired of the fanboys talking about his "complexity" when I know by mind and heart he was only complex to rock fandom. Outside of that, he wouldn't stand a chance.  And yes, he dominated the rock world with amazing grooves, syncopation, and heavy handed technique. But I will always stand by my opinion that despite all that, he was stiff as a board.

Uh.  yeah you did.... maybe not in your original comment.. but it’s right there.. “proper jazz and swing drummers”... pretty obvious what you were referring too all the way through. Hey if that’s your opinion ... great.. Jon Hiseman was awesome . If you prefer him.. whatever.  

Who were the “real drummers”? You know ... the ones who would have been “rolling their eyes”?  You weren’t referring to Jazz guys?  Who then?   

Edited February 10, 2019 by the chase

[gibsonfan159]

38 minutes ago, the chase said:

Who were the “real drummers”? You know ... the ones who would have been “rolling their eyes”?  You weren’t referring to Jazz guys?  Who then?

My point was that if you take away the amazing tuning, monstrous triplets, and addictive grooves, there were drummers (rock drummers) who were just far more skilled when it comes to incorporating the entire kit and varying their accents and phrases. Of course this goes out the door when one says "Bonham only played what was needed". Sure, that makes Charlie Watts better than Bonham. I'll omit Baker considering he came strictly from jazz. Barrie Barlow for one was much more adept to structure. Artimus Pyle accented the beat like nobody's business. Moon is debatable. Do we even have to compare Bonham to Palmer? It would be comparing grooves and muscle to finesse and expertise. This is only touching the surface.

My point is that Bonham's drumming was basic, but extremely impressive. Much like Tony Iommi's guitar playing. It's really in response to anyone who brags about Bonzo's technicality. He just wasn't that technical. Now go ahead and make a statement about groove.