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Cozy 4ever

Does anyone have any controversial opinions about Zep?

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On 1/29/2019 at 10:36 PM, gibsonfan159 said:

Bonham is the most influential rock drummer ever. No doubt. He wasn't that great technically though. Real drummers were probably rolling their eyes at him through all the giant fills and triplets. Go ahead, kill me. 

I won't kill you, but can you clarify what you mean when you say "he wasn't that great technically"? I'm not a drummer, so I'm not really sure how to analyze his drumming on a pure technical scale. But are you saying that his technique or whatever is flawed on tracks like Good Times Bad Times, In My Time of Dying, or Fool In The Rain?

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4 hours ago, ZepHead315 said:

. But are you saying that his technique or whatever is flawed on tracks like Good Times Bad Times, In My Time of Dying, or Fool In The Rain?

His techniques were flawless in the studio. They just really weren't anything "next level" or truly impressive compared to many other drummers. His overall use of the kit in accenting the music in a percussive manner was pretty non existent. In other words, heavy grooves and giant triplets easily impress a casual listener, but there's more to being a percussionist than that.

I will say that the one thing that always impressed me most about him was his distinctive, non traditional fills and accents. Bonham hardly ever did a straight forward "RLRL" drum roll, or tom roll fill like 90% of drummers do. Not until 77 anyway, he did them on Achilles and Kashmir. He always switched it up and did something unexpected, no matter how small. 

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1 minute ago, gibsonfan159 said:

His techniques were flawless in the studio. They just really weren't anything "next level" or truly impressive compared to many other drummers. His overall use of the kit in accenting the music in a percussive manner was pretty non existent. In other words, heavy grooves and giant triplets easily impress a casual listener, but there's more to being a percussionist than that.

I will say that the one thing that always impressed me most about him was his distinctive, non traditional fills and accents. Bonham hardly ever did a straight forward "RLRL" drum roll, or tom roll fill like 90% of drummers do. Not until 77 anyway, he did them on Achilles and Kashmir. He always switched it up and did something unexpected, no matter how small. 

I just disagree here.  In his day, Bonzo was TERRIBLY impressive, jaw dropping and revolutionary.   

Yeah, drumming has evolved and his technique isn’t as high by today’s standards.  Had he not died and sobered up, Bonzo would’ve continued to evolve.  It’s a tragedy he didn’t get that chance.  

Ive been a musician for over 35 years, and a good one, I’ve played with many, many, many great drummers.  Pros, real pros.  Bonham is held in the absolute HIGHEST esteem.  

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Planty's over the top wailing for the first year or so

An hour of one man only on stage in the 77 tour. Over the top, noise solo, and WS/ BMS. Just overblown nonsense, particularly with Page often way below par. I think taking the bow section out of D&C reduced its effectiveness by being exposed as silly without the bookending of the riff and verses. Probably by 75 he needed a new showcase, or maybe shortening D&C instead of extending it even further when they'd lost its vitality. It got turgid. Some good bits obviously but unnecessary.

i wonder how it would have been had Planty ever taken a poll at the 75 and 77 US gigs "who wants to hear 20 - 30 minutes of drums? Hands up"  surely there couldn't have been too many in favour? Maybe I'm wrong. All this at a time when Page claimed to be excited by the spirit of the Damned etc. They could have played a whole set and encores in the time of just the OTP  drum solo. 

The black dragon and white poppy suits partly turned Page into a cartoon. He dressed better on the 75 tour before Earls Court I think. Wearing the new suit there was cool, but only wearing the suits on the 77 tour seemed as though he just wanted to look like his caracature

Not  preparing more for Knebworth, given that they knew they were going to record it on film for possible use. The second night warm up at Copenhagen was great and maybe if they played a dozen more gigs or so before the main event they'd have been more consistent on the night, like Copenhagen There were some great bits but also some not so. Page looked dreadful, like a sweating corpse. Again I'd say drop or severely shorten the noise solo and likewise WS/BMS. Instead of dragging it out, just play it for a minute or two and then when folk think they're going to have to go for a piss or drink, trick them by going straight into Kashmir. Same with the 80 tour. WS at Berlin is one of the worst things I think Ive ever heard. If you're struggling to do something, don't drag it out, trim it back. 

 

 with rice paper for skin and 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, bluecongo said:

I just disagree here.  In his day, Bonzo was TERRIBLY impressive, jaw dropping and revolutionary.   

Yeah, drumming has evolved and his technique isn’t as high by today’s standards.  Had he not died and sobered up, Bonzo would’ve continued to evolve.  It’s a tragedy he didn’t get that chance.  

Ive been a musician for over 35 years, and a good one, I’ve played with many, many, many great drummers.  Pros, real pros.  Bonham is held in the absolute HIGHEST esteem.  

Yeah, but he was no John Hiseman.

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16 minutes ago, bluecongo said:

And Hiseman was no Bonham. 

He wouldn't have stooped as low to be a power drummer lol. I'll stop.

Bonham has his place and is King of his hill, but I stopped being impressed after I studied music more and understood the difference between barbarianism and sophistication. Don't get me wrong, I'll still get rigid when listening to IMTOD. He had an authenticity no one else could match.

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4 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

He wouldn't have stooped as low to be a power drummer lol. I'll stop.

Bonham has his place and is King of his hill, but I stopped being impressed after I studied music more and understood the difference between barbarianism and sophistication. Don't get me wrong, I'll still get rigid when listening to IMTOD. He had an authenticity no one else could match.

What about the ability to come up with drum beats that millions of people all over the world instantly recognize? There aren't much than a handful or two of those beats, and Bonham has three or four of them. There's so much more to Bonham than barbarianism. 

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9 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

He wouldn't have stooped as low to be a power drummer lol. I'll stop.

Bonham has his place and is King of his hill, but I stopped being impressed after I studied music more and understood the difference between barbarianism and sophistication. Don't get me wrong, I'll still get rigid when listening to IMTOD. He had an authenticity no one else could match.

Jon Hiseman was a huge John Bonham fan.

I would suggest going back & watching Moby Dick from the Royal Albert Hall gig, Bonham had fantastic technique & a great knowledge of his rudiments.

Bonham admitted himself he was no Buddy Rich but in terms of rock drumming his feel is unmatched, you can have all the technical ability in the World and never make people feel as good as Bonham did.

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The idea that John Bonham wasn't a 'real drummer' because he didn't play as though he'd got eight arms and four legs is like these daft kids thinking that wapping out a million notes a minute makes you a good guitarist. Piffle. It's just empty decoration. It says absolutely nothing to me.
Here's an example: I saw Jon Hiseman open for Billy Cobham in Sheffield in 1981.
Out of those two, Cobham showed he could go diddlywiddly around a kit faster than Hiseman. Big deal.
Neither of them played anything that made any kind of emotional impact on me, whatsoever.  
The emotional impact of Bonham's drumming? Still there after 42 years. Every damn time I hear it. 

  

   

Edited by Brigante

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I would point out that I'm a huge fan of both Jon Hiseman & Billy Cobham by the way.

All of these people are music legends for a reason & all very different in the way that they play.

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Songs and especially drum, guitar solos longer than 20 minutes are horribly self indulgent and rarely interesting.  I can deal with it listening at home to a degree as I can get things done but at a concert it would have been quite boring 

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2 hours ago, drpete said:

Songs and especially drum, guitar solos longer than 20 minutes are horribly self indulgent and rarely interesting.  I can deal with it listening at home to a degree as I can get things done but at a concert it would have been quite boring 

Well I think that if you look at Dazed and confused, especially up to 1973, when it was still technically really good and not streched out like in 1975 when it had quite many quiet stops and the sections from 1973 just got stretched out and less technical, then I have to say that the solos and bow solo were divided into so many interesting and well improvisationaly COMPOSED separate sections, that they were not boring and uninteresting at all. They were short masterpiece compositions on their own.

Edited by SamoKodela

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16 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

He wouldn't have stooped as low to be a power drummer lol. I'll stop.

Bonham has his place and is King of his hill, but I stopped being impressed after I studied music more and understood the difference between barbarianism and sophistication. Don't get me wrong, I'll still get rigid when listening to IMTOD. He had an authenticity no one else could match.

This is an absurd statement, sorry, but true. GTBT, Royal Orleans, Hot's of for Nowhere, and FITR are just four examples of subtlety, technique, and his playing with time signatures which are up there with the best of jazz & rock drummers.

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Pretty much anything regarding live playing is really just armchair quarterbacking and has little merit. Page's playing declined because of booze & heroin, both of which explain the how and why he could suck on one song and be brilliant on the next. Booze will completely ruin any manual dexterity if you are wasted. Heroin, being an opiate comes in waves. Case in point, his screw ups in 75' were booze related, that is why he was so damn good before the drum solo and would devolve to shit after. Heroin explains 77'- 83' to a T. If he had good smack and did not take too much he played excellent. If he had sub-par smack or took too much he would be great during one song, then the next he could suck because of a heroin rush, and then back to brilliance.

As for setlist, poor choices (MD & guitar solo back to back) that's easy to explain. It was 77', Plant was coked up, Page was on smack as was Bonham, and being the height of rock stardom and hedonism they all wanted some action during the show. 

Of course they made bad choices, so did Clapton, Bolin, Jaco, Bird, etc... the list goes on. All of them the best of the best and all of them total shit when high. I get a little tired of the critiquing of Zeppelin when other bands who did the same thing seem to get a pass. At least Zep never made racist remarks to an audience unlike Clapton and Slick.

 

Rant over

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On 1/30/2019 at 10:10 AM, Stormwatcher said:

Led Zeppelin was a band that when they played well, they were the best in the world, mostly in the first years, somewhat in 1973, but after 1973, quite a few performances were good as earlier concerts. Plant's voice during 1975 was quite hard to listen to and sometimes very embarrassing. The 1980 tour was unnecessary, I think  Zeppelin came to their creative end in the 80's even without John Bonham's death. Plant's voice was far cry from glory days in 1971 and In Through the Out door was not a great album. Also, they should did rehearsal for at least week in 1985 for Live Aid, come clean and tried to be as good as Queen, without Phil Collins, same thing for the MSG in 1988. In many ways Zeppelin was inconsistent band, without middle ground, they were like gods at good nights, or deeply embarrassing on bad nights.

Well Plant shouldn't have sang in January and most or February, I wonder how he wasn't afraid he might loose his voice completely and forever, but Page was mostly really good and made a further artform out of his soloing and I think Jones and Bonham and the overall peformance that year was more about showing the bands overall extreme diversity rather than smashing the very extreme out of every song.

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On 1/31/2019 at 6:56 PM, ZepHead315 said:

1975 is my second least favorite live year for the band after 1980. With the exception of the January shows and (to a lesser degree) the Earls Court gigs, the setlist is probably the most stale and boring setlist they ever did. Page and especially Plant are shadows of their former selves and there seems to be a lack of enthusiasm in many of the shows. That's not to say there aren't terrific moments and shows throughout the year, but it's a year that I rarely revisit.

 

Sorry, this is what I should have quoted in my previous post.

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6 hours ago, drpete said:

Songs and especially drum, guitar solos longer than 20 minutes are horribly self indulgent and rarely interesting.  I can deal with it listening at home to a degree as I can get things done but at a concert it would have been quite boring 

     I love writing out a great post and then not posting it.:buttsmack:

Edited by hummingbird69

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16 hours ago, tyler19 said:

What about the ability to come up with drum beats that millions of people all over the world instantly recognize? There aren't much than a handful or two of those beats, and Bonham has three or four of them. There's so much more to Bonham than barbarianism. 

I won't and can't deny that. He was amazing in that regard.

 

4 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

This is an absurd statement, sorry, but true. GTBT, Royal Orleans, Hot's of for Nowhere, and FITR are just four examples of subtlety, technique, and his playing with time signatures which are up there with the best of jazz & rock drummers.

I think you're wrong and incapable of seeing past your nose. No offense.

 

9 hours ago, Brigante said:

The idea that John Bonham wasn't a 'real drummer' because he didn't play as though he'd got eight arms and four legs is like these daft kids thinking that wapping out a million notes a minute makes you a good guitarist.

Kind of like doing endless triplets to impress the teenagers? The same crowd that says Joey Jordison is the greatest drummer ever. Go argue with their opinion.

 

11 hours ago, Mook said:

I would suggest going back & watching Moby Dick from the Royal Albert Hall gig, Bonham had fantastic technique & a great knowledge of his rudiments.

Seen and listened many times. It's very good, I'm not saying he wasn't good. I'm saying that when talking about next level drummers Bonham was fairly simplistic and stiff as a board. He also had a habit of going ADHD live and losing the others.

That's my controversial opinion. Take it or leave it, but I'm just playing along to the thread. 

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On January 30, 2019 at 7:39 AM, bluecongo said:

I find early Live Zep close to unlistenable 

Robert screeches and howls way too much, Bonzo doesn’t always keep solid time.  They were much much better by 1970.

I agree with that sometimes. 

Total mismanagement after 77 and not any better post zep in the 80s

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On 1/31/2019 at 11:56 PM, gibsonfan159 said:

His techniques were flawless in the studio. They just really weren't anything "next level" or truly impressive compared to many other drummers. His overall use of the kit in accenting the music in a percussive manner was pretty non existent. In other words, heavy grooves and giant triplets easily impress a casual listener, but there's more to being a percussionist than that.

I will say that the one thing that always impressed me most about him was his distinctive, non traditional fills and accents. Bonham hardly ever did a straight forward "RLRL" drum roll, or tom roll fill like 90% of drummers do. Not until 77 anyway, he did them on Achilles and Kashmir. He always switched it up and did something unexpected, no matter how small. 

I agree that Bonzo's fills sometimes threw the whole band off. Some fills ended out of time.

However, your statement regarding Bonham is really ridiculous. Bonzo is up there with the best. He was no Dave Weckl or Vinnie Colaiuta and he never intented to be. But the ideas he came up with, the grooves, the feeling, the whole concept of rock drumming with his swing feel is flat out amazing. You can easily see how amazing he was when you listen to others covering his work.  I've heard so many LZ tribute bands, I've seen top drummers playing covers of his grooves. Not ONCE has anyone come even close to Bonhams sound, feel and groove. It's the opposite with Jimmy: I've seen many great covers of his work. Bonham is the reason why I love Led Zep.

Edited by the-ocean87

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My unpopular opinion about the band is:

 

I think Jimmy is a bit overrated as a guitar player. And I also think Plant was a medicore singer in the 70's, compared to guys like Ian Gillan or Ronnie James Dio. I think while both Plant and Page get most of the praise for Led Zep, they were much too inconsistent to deserve all the praise, especially in concert. JPJ and Bonzo were on a higher level from a musicans perspective.

Edited by the-ocean87

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On 2/1/2019 at 1:45 AM, tyler19 said:

What about the ability to come up with drum beats that millions of people all over the world instantly recognize? There aren't much than a handful or two of those beats, and Bonham has three or four of them. There's so much more to Bonham than barbarianism.  

Well said. This is where the genius lies, not in the technique per se.

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The overpresence of wild sexuality, misogyny, painful self torture relationships, partying and mysticism in their lyrics should also perhaps be mentioned.

However they also touched many other areas with their lyrics more then enough(and then Plant in his solo carrer even much more) and we all can and I can certainly relate to all above mentioned lyrical topics, I only can't relate to misogyny, but it's never like they bash women in general, they talk about specific women.

And self torture relationship where you just keep loving and loving someone even with all the bad things just describe me perfectly unfortunately. It's important to stop doing that at some point, but Since I've been loving you will always be my favourite song and will be played at my funeral, hope that won't be soon.

And I never listened much to them for the lyrics, but I certainly partied quite a bit, even if I was never much into partying at all and we all like good sex and mystical lyrics are just so perfect for Kashmir and Achilles, I can't imagine anything better for such songs.

As for Bonham, there are perhaps more precise and technically sophisticated drummers, but he suited the band so perfectly and some things were still very complex and varied and I always thought it must be VERY hard to play some of the even more simple fills and grooves, not to mention the hard ones and smash the drums SO hard at the same time.

Edited by SamoKodela

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Ringo never got too much credit for his drumming skills and even some downright bashing for it, but if you took him from the Beatles it would not be the Beatles any longer.  Besides the attraction to Zep's iconic songs, many Zep followers were attracted to the on-stage interplay between Bonham's drumming and Page's playing; the bookend being Plant's voice playing off of Page's guitar.......with JPJ providing that huge floor underneath so that no one would fall through.

 

ADK-Zeppy

Edited by ADK-Zeppy

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