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kipper

Good Bye Notre Dame (1163-2019)

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5 hours ago, kipper said:

Talking Heads comes to mind too...

Well, sure but Jim Morrison is buried in Paris.

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3 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Well, sure but Jim Morrison is buried in Paris.

Oh, I didn't get that connection, I was thinking just the song "Light My Fire" and then my response "Burning Down the House".

Steve did you hear that French authorities have threatened people with arrest for speculating on any possible "terrorist" involvement by "a certain demographic" in relation to the fire yesterday. How crazy is that?  How paranoid are they of making any possible offense to a group which by and large doesn't respect their culture anyway?

Liberty has been gutted worse than that building if this is true.

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8 minutes ago, kipper said:

Steve did you hear that French authorities have threatened people with arrest for speculating on any possible "terrorist" involvement by "a certain demographic" in relation to the fire yesterday. How crazy is that?  How paranoid are they of making any possible offense to a group which by and large doesn't respect their culture anyway?

Liberty has been gutted worse than that building if this is true.

Heads in the sand idiots.

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The building is now a shell, French Prez Marcon has plans to rebuild in five years. That is  a little over ambitious, York Minster was gutted by fire in 1984, thirty five years on exterior stonework renovation work has still not been fully completed.

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It is saying that many relics of great importance have been saved.  For instance the crown of thorns and one of the nails that they believe was one used in the actual crucifixion of Jesus.  Relics from the true cross.  That this happened during Holy Week really makes you wonder. A true accident?   Or a Devine message?

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, LedZeppfan1977 said:

It is saying that many relics of great importance have been saved.  For instance the crown of thorns and one of the nails that they believe was one used in the actual crucifixion of Jesus.  Relics from the true cross.  That this happened during Holy Week really makes you wonder. A true accident?   Or a Devine message?

All of those so called "relics" are fake.  In the middle ages there was competition between all of the European cities with cathedrals to have "the best relics". The cities/cathedrals with the best stuff drew the most pilgrims.... and with them money offerings (indulgences to cancel sins) and the money was used to build up the cathedrals and line the pockets of the church.  Cathedrals in the middle ages were the first forms of tourist destinations--- virtual amusement parks for religious pilgrims.  Any modern inquiry into the authenticity and provenance of these "relics" always seems to indicate they were faked. The shroud of Turin comes to mind.

But that all being said, these building have significant architectural and artistic value even if they are somewhat silly to assume any "Godly significance". Venerating a building, or venerating an object in a building to many Christians is considered another form of idolatry. I'm not making any claim against the religion involved here, just the authenticity of the so called "relics" which are pretty much considered to be pure mythology.

Edited by kipper

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On 4/15/2019 at 8:52 PM, kipper said:

Well, to be fair the Byzantines had been collaborating with Saladan and pissing off Rome.

Saladin had been dead for a decade when the Fourth Crusade began, plus, the sacking of Constantinople had nothing to do with Saladin or anyone else, it was about money. The Fourth Crusader Army, which had just sacked Zara, and was excommunicated as a result by Pope Innocent III, were pretty much screwed when the son of the deposed ruler of Constantinople came a calling. The crusader army camped out at Constantinople just hanging out and getting paid for nothing for about a year when the ruler was deposed and the money cut off. The crusader army then sacked Constantinople as they did to Zara.

So to recap, we have a christian crusader army, supposed to re-take Jerusalem instead sacking Zara for money and then Constantinople, and getting excommunicated in the process. Saladin...are you serious? Oh wait, its always the brown guys fault, bonus points if muslim.

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6 hours ago, kipper said:

All of those so called "relics" are fake.  In the middle ages there was competition between all of the European cities with cathedrals to have "the best relics". The cities/cathedrals with the best stuff drew the most pilgrims.... and with them money offerings (indulgences to cancel sins) and the money was used to build up the cathedrals and line the pockets of the church.  Cathedrals in the middle ages were the first forms of tourist destinations--- virtual amusement parks for religious pilgrims.  Any modern inquiry into the authenticity and provenance of these "relics" always seems to indicate they were faked. The shroud of Turin comes to mind.

But that all being said, these building have significant architectural and artistic value even if they are somewhat silly to assume any "Godly significance". Venerating a building, or venerating an object in a building to many Christians is considered another form of idolatry. I'm not making any claim against the religion involved here, just the authenticity of the so called "relics" which are pretty much considered to be pure mythology.

Good post Kip. Around the 13th century no fewer than four churches laid claim to the skull of John the Baptist. In merry old England, half the English churches in the middle ages claimed to have the remains of Joseph of Aramathea.

Damn these saints got around more after they died then they ever did alive.

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13 hours ago, chef free said:

Sources indicate that the organ survived!

Now that's a miracle. :)

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On ‎4‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 10:12 AM, kipper said:

Steve did you hear that French authorities have threatened people with arrest for speculating on any possible "terrorist" involvement by "a certain demographic" in relation to the fire yesterday. How crazy is that?  How paranoid are they of making any possible offense to a group which by and large doesn't respect their culture anyway?

I'm not surprised. Europe's been on the long march towards cultural suicide for a couple of decades now. The suburbs of Paris are already something like 20% Muslim. 

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12 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

Saladin had been dead for a decade when the Fourth Crusade began, plus, the sacking of Constantinople had nothing to do with Saladin or anyone else, it was about money. The Fourth Crusader Army, which had just sacked Zara, and was excommunicated as a result by Pope Innocent III, were pretty much screwed when the son of the deposed ruler of Constantinople came a calling. The crusader army camped out at Constantinople just hanging out and getting paid for nothing for about a year when the ruler was deposed and the money cut off. The crusader army then sacked Constantinople as they did to Zara.

So to recap, we have a christian crusader army, supposed to re-take Jerusalem instead sacking Zara for money and then Constantinople, and getting excommunicated in the process. Saladin...are you serious? Oh wait, its always the brown guys fault, bonus points if muslim.

Anything to share that is relevant to the thread topic?

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11 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

I'm not surprised. Europe's been on the long march towards cultural suicide for a couple of decades now. The suburbs of Paris are already something like 20% Muslim. 

Anything to share that is relevant to the thread topic?

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6 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

Anything to share that is relevant to the thread topic?

It is directly relevant ding dong. The cathedral is owned by the French government, not the Roman Catholic Church. Maintenance is the responsibility of The French Ministry of Culture, and they were not meeting their fiduciary obligations. That's when the Catholic church stepped in to provide minimum essential funding for the repairs that were in progress. Fast forward to 2050, when Muslims are not only the majority in France but across the European Union. Where do you think the majority of ever diminishing capital for culture will be invested? 1,000+ year old Christian houses of worship or brand new mosques? Thirty years from today, does Paris remain the same perennial tourist destination that it is now when it's population increases from 20% to 50% Muslim? This is not Islamophobic commentary, it's the future.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/sep/26/muslim-majority-in-france-projected-in-40-years/

 

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14 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

It is directly relevant ding dong. The cathedral is owned by the French government, not the Roman Catholic Church. Maintenance is the responsibility of The French Ministry of Culture, and they were not meeting their fiduciary obligations. That's when the Catholic church stepped in to provide minimum essential funding for the repairs that were in progress. Fast forward to 2050, when Muslims are not only the majority in France but across the European Union. Where do you think the majority of ever diminishing capital for culture will be invested? 1,000+ year old Christian houses of worship or brand new mosques? Thirty years from today, does Paris remain the same perennial tourist destination that it is now when it's population increases from 20% to 50% Muslim? This is not Islamophobic commentary, it's the future.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/sep/26/muslim-majority-in-france-projected-in-40-years/

 

Wow, your a regular Nostradamus. Never do you cease to amaze me Steve, now you think you know the future too.

Anyway, your post STILL had nothing to do with what you replied. This is today, not 2050. What do Muslim's have to do with an electrical fire? What does fiduciary obligations have to do with a church burning down during renovations due to an accident? Are you claiming the French government purposely used sub-par labor and / or material in renovating a landmark that brings in hundreds of millions of Euro each year? Further. it is still a Roman Catholic landmark, if they are gonna place their advertisement all over the place and reap the income, damn right they need to pony up.

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1 hour ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

Wow, your a regular Nostradamus. Never do you cease to amaze me Steve, now you think you know the future too.

Anyway, your post STILL had nothing to do with what you replied. This is today, not 2050. What do Muslim's have to do with an electrical fire? What does fiduciary obligations have to do with a church burning down during renovations due to an accident? Are you claiming the French government purposely used sub-par labor and / or material in renovating a landmark that brings in hundreds of millions of Euro each year? Further. it is still a Roman Catholic landmark, if they are gonna place their advertisement all over the place and reap the income, damn right they need to pony up.

IpMan, your reading comprehension skills are hopeless. Perhaps get someone to read my posts to you and then, using visual aids, explain what they mean.

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1 hour ago, SteveAJones said:

IpMan, your reading comprehension skills are hopeless. Perhaps get someone to read my posts to you and then, using visual aids, explain what they mean.

 

Steve Bannon...is that you?

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On 4/19/2019 at 3:05 AM, SteveAJones said:

It is directly relevant ding dong. The cathedral is owned by the French government, not the Roman Catholic Church. Maintenance is the responsibility of The French Ministry of Culture, and they were not meeting their fiduciary obligations. That's when the Catholic church stepped in to provide minimum essential funding for the repairs that were in progress. Fast forward to 2050, when Muslims are not only the majority in France but across the European Union. Where do you think the majority of ever diminishing capital for culture will be invested? 1,000+ year old Christian houses of worship or brand new mosques? Thirty years from today, does Paris remain the same perennial tourist destination that it is now when it's population increases from 20% to 50% Muslim? This is not Islamophobic commentary, it's the future.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/sep/26/muslim-majority-in-france-projected-in-40-years/

 

Which is why Notre Dame should not be rebuilt. It should stand as a reminder of a culture that used to exist but will no longer exist unless drastic measures are taken now.... which we all know will not happen.  Even the British seem to be losing their fortitude after correctly voting for Brexit. At least Ringo Starr understands the need for Britain to have control of their own county....  everyone should.

 

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No one knows how this fire started...

 

 

 

 

 

 

But Quasimodo has a hunch!

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12 hours ago, chef free said:

No one knows how this fire started...

The Shadow knows.

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