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Posted (edited)

Where I come from and how I was raised I was taught that if you had nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. Now I have never followed that shit. I told my mother not to let the door hit her where the good lord split her as I wanted privacy while "watching" Olivia Newton John in Xanadu...ahhhh, Xanadu....

But I digress, I recently beame a member here and I am utterly shocked at all the hate for Jimmy and Bonzo and Robert (well maybe not Robert, he talks a lot of smack himself). But seriously, how do you join what is basically a Fan Club, then rip on these guys....

I mean, I get that the outside world doesn't get LZ as a band, but here you'd expect to see those that do. They like the music, they just wish it was someone else playing it. They want album accuracy unless it's one of the Magical Performances. Like, how do you think they got those? And then there are stories of smacking people in the face and threatening to throw guys out of the band, embarrassingly excessive solos and awful skills. Not to mention subterfuge and dishonest product output by Jimmy that goes so far as to claim he can't play for shit but then at 60 he dubbed over his playing at 30. Seriously, where do you get this stuff? There are countless books, interviews, insider gossip and yet so many here run with the insane rumour mill of deranged fans. Stories started by imbeciles, uncorroborated, untrue and petty hurtful towards people they claim to love. I simply don't get it. One would imagine that this is exactly the place you'd go to see others who do get it. And if they don't they'd learn what it was about by the majority of people with love and admiration for a group that did so much for us all. Let alone the impact they had on music in general. The one place where my mother's advice would actually be employed by all. But no. It's all like "oh yeah the songs are great but these guys can't carry a tune." Bonzo can't play drums according one thread, Jimmy's the worst on another and Plant lost his voice in 72 on another. JPJ seems to still fly under the radar, thank god somebody gets a pass, but man, oh man is this the Twilight Zone or what?

They should make another website for Zeppelin Song Fans and relocate these guys there or something. Seperate them from their families at the border so they don't come back and tear gas them to boot. This is a Fan Club for the band. If you rag on that band, you should be removed. Who knows in this crazy place, maybe I get removed for saying that. Say what you want, but cordialy. Fight with each other, of course. Everyone likes a good flame war now and then (except the moderators), but keep the band members sacrosanct. Otherwise; WTF are you doing here?

Edited by CherrySunburstWorshiper

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Posted (edited)

What hate,  I've never seen this place as a "fan club", it's a discussion forum that just happens to be Led Zeppelin centric. Just because this is the "official" place to go to doesn't mean that everybody has to "bend the knee" and keep everything nice and "fanboi", nothing in this world is sacrosanct absolutely nothing at all. When Jimmy Page continues to say that "something new is coming" then doesn't deliver he leads himself wide open for deserved criticism, many don't like Robert Plant's stance that Led Zeppelin are done and there will be no more.  I like Led Zeppelin I have done so for almost fifty years, ever since I heard LZ II sometime around about 1971, so I was late to the game they had already been established for almost three years. I like being here, I will have been here twelve years in September coming, in that time many have come and gone, some missed some not so.

The members of Led Zeppelin are just people, they are not godz or "superhuman" beings, they just happen to in a band that has been rather successful  Ok there are many that worship their "heroes" to the end of the Earth and back, to those people they can do nothing wrong, I'm not one of them, like I said I like them I don't love them, love is for more important things in life than a rock n' roll band.  This place would be boring if there was no "negativity" or criticism, I like it just as it is, though I sometimes wish it was a bit edgier but there are rules that need to be observed.   That's enough rambling from me, I'm off to put the kettle on for a nice cup of tea, even Robert Plant (and co) like a nice cup of tea, he says so on the BBC Sessions right before "That's the Way"....

Edited by JTM

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This is NOT a fan club, it is a moderated discussion forum and views may vary, indeed they do. The vast majority of the flack the guys get here is rooted in unrealistic expectations.

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I agree, way too much negativity directed at these guys.  

Jimmy ain’t gonna be with us too much longer, I’m thankful that he’s still around all things considered!  

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7 hours ago, CherrySunburstWorshiper said:

Bonzo can't play drums according one thread

If you're talking about my comment, it was an unpopular opinion thread and I was reaching at best for the sake of conversation. Bonham will always be my favorite drummer and I hold him above most.

I can't speak for the rumor mill, but a lot of negativity comes from simply examining the truth of the band. As JTM said, these were just people in a rock band, not flawless divine beings who can't be judged or analyzed. Now obviously blatant troll comments and flaming shouldn't be allowed, but if you're calling a spade a spade, what's the problem? And with Zep's repertoire, even the most common facts about them can sound negative. Are we to deny Page dating an underage girl? The red snapper incident? Bonham and Grant almost murdering a man? The drug use? The infidelity? This isn't slander or hate, it's what happened. Saying Page's playing didn't suffer after 73 and Plant's voice didn't change after 72 is just denying facts. No need to hide the truth. As I've said before, a real fan accepts both sides and doesn't just blindly over-glorify every aspect.

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1 hour ago, bluecongo said:

I agree, way too much negativity directed at these guys.  

Jimmy ain’t gonna be with us too much longer, I’m thankful that he’s still around all things considered!  

I'm in agreement.. I actually saw Jimmy Page collapse onstage in Chicago 1977. 

When Bonzo died in 1980, other than Deathwish 2 you had no idea what was up with Jimmy. When he did reappear at the ARMS shows in 1983, it was shocking to see how bad he looked. It was obvious he was suffering. Many on this forum have unrealistic expectations of him. Almost a hostility. I'm happy he survived it all and he seems to be enjoying his life.

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Led Zeppelin is a force that will live long past it’s members. I can see how some of the band members can turn off fans, the off stage rumors, the drug use, womanizing. That was the 1970s and rarely did people complain. As a fan who will always buy a new Zeppelin whatever in music ( reissue remastered etc. etc.) I think it’s ok criticize them for a lackluster 50th anniversary celebration, or not doing more one off gigs, or releasing and remastering some best of live Led Zeppelin. Personally I’m happy with the official stuff over these many boots but hey that’s just mean. I enjoy reading how these serious live recordings collectors go in detail about the musicality Zeppelin was known for during their live concerts. It is cool to listen to how their songs changed in playing from night to night, or reading how a luck guy got to see Zeppelin concert. I’ve stated many times I’m not a fan of Zeppelin 77’ but I’m definitely not going to deny the powerful energy, the force or light and darkness in their shows must have been awesome to behold. Jimmy, Robert, Jones, Bonham can handle some criticism when they know at one time Gods did walk the Earth. 

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28 minutes ago, Chicago said:

I'm in agreement.. I actually saw Jimmy Page collapse onstage in Chicago 1977. 

When Bonzo died in 1980, other than Deathwish 2 you had no idea what was up with Jimmy. When he did reappear at the ARMS shows in 1983, it was shocking to see how bad he looked. It was obvious he was suffering. Many on this forum have unrealistic expectations of him. Almost a hostility. I'm happy he survived it all and he seems to be enjoying his life.

+1

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1 hour ago, gibsonfan159 said:

And with Zep's repertoire, even the most common facts about them can sound negative. Are we to deny Page dating an underage girl? The red snapper incident? Bonham and Grant almost murdering a man? The drug use? The infidelity?  

I love all that shit! 

 

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1 hour ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Bonham and Grant almost murdering a man?

Does this have anything to do with that thing with Grant's son and the security at some '77 show? Or is this entirely different? I've never heard that they "almost murdered" somebody.

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Posted (edited)

I wouldn't call someone else's opinion hate. Truth, or differing bits of information, is not hateful in the slightest. Just because the facts, theories or information espoused might behold unpleasant information does not make it hateful.

When you can take someone's negatives (as realistically every single member in the band has, just like everyone else) and still love them, that is the literal epitome of unconditional love. Many people on  here have differing opinions (sometimes negatives) but everyone loves the band in their own way. To erase history and create an echo chamber/ feed back loop is basically asking for everyone to be hooked up to the hive mind/borg. We might as well be biological artificial intelligence at that point with the internet or some other awareness dictating all of our thoughts. At that point we are a programmed slave species. This entire mindset that someone who states something that is either quite possibly or definitely factual but isn't pleasant=hate.... could possibly be the literal end of freedom of thought, expression and ultimately consciousness. Of course not in the realm of a led zeppelin forum, but it does reflect a mindset pervading modern human society internationally. 

Even if something is totally unrealistic that doesn't mean someone should be silenced. People can discern reality for themselves. Imagine if this mindset was so pervasive when something like cigarettes were still considered healthy by the government and the mainstream scientific/medical establishment?

I do agree that some people on here have unrealistic expectations for band members, can be both unnecessarily and overly-negative, can be unconsciously judgmental, can act very entitled and in some instances probably don't even understand the band. But that's their right and it actually makes things interesting. I totally respect what others feel and believe and in regards to something as harmless as a Zep forum, I love seeing other peoples opinions.

Do I think certain people on here have some really dumb or ignorant opinions? Of course, but that doesn't make them hateful nor does it make me dread coming on here. It makes it interesting and highlights the infinite expressions of humanity. If something bothers you then maybe you should exert your will over your reflex action of distaste and just learn to laugh it off. Because quite honestly I find some of what people say on here (in regards to certain topics) to be quite funny. People really need to see the humorous side of things more often and stop being so impulsively sensitive. Or you could also just stop reading their comments because no one is forcing you to read through the forum.

If you can't hear unpleasant facts, or possibilities about something how do you ever expect to learn the truth about anything? I hope you're not like this when it comes to history or politics. In the realm of led zeppelin it obviously doesn't matter but I'm just stating that it could possibly reflect a mindset that literally can't cope with reality and rationalize it, or in some cases differing bits of information that might expose something unpleasant. Or I should probably say that it's similar to a mindset that many people express. Obviously I don't know you personally so I really don't mean this in an absolute way, I'm just commenting on this particular post.

Think of it this way, Led Zeppelin has had such a profoundly positive effect on all of us that we want to feel like we know the members because we've all felt so connected with them through their music. Can that get annoying for the members of the band?At times, Probably, but it comes with such widespread success and I'm sure they wouldn't change the fact that people feel so connected. That's what happens when you create something timeless. So in a way you should really see these things as a positive, because they are reflections of something that is positive which is the music of Led Zeppelin.

On the forum people are just responding and innocently discussing information they have heard about the band, as well as opinions about certain performances. Yet Robert, John and Jimmy are seemingly doing just fine living the lives they want to live. I'm sure they couldn't care less about what anyone is saying on here and i'm sure they'd probably find some of it as humorous as I do.

Edited by nemophilist

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2 hours ago, June72 said:

Does this have anything to do with that thing with Grant's son and the security at some '77 show? Or is this entirely different? I've never heard that they "almost murdered" somebody.

 Bonzo didn't. Grant & Bindon did.

 

4 hours ago, bluecongo said:

 Jimmy ain’t gonna be with us too much longer, I’m thankful that he’s still around all things considered!  

Despite the punishment he's given himself down the years, I wouldn't be so sure. His mother lived into her 90s, so Page has good genes. Same as Keef!

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3 minutes ago, 76229 said:

Bonzo didn't. Grant & Bindon did.

Unless I'm mistaken, Bonzo was in on it as well. He was arrested for assault.

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1 hour ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Unless I'm mistaken, Bonzo was in on it as well. He was arrested for assault.

What I've heard is John Bonham kicked the guy in the family jewels and then jumped back onstage.. No denying he assaulted him, but he didn't almost kill him.

Grant and Bindon were later on in the day and more severe..

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When the first The Firm record came out, a WBCN dj, prolly Charles Laquidara remarked about Jimmy Page having "finger amnesia", a comment he had to walk back due to fan phone calls. When the HTWWW live lp came out the radio folks said it had the same problems as TSRTS. Again fan blitz on phone caused on air walk back. I'm here because im not a normal fan, I am  a Zeppelin addict. I reserve the right to be critical, be dissapointed, give praise and generally speak my mind. #Freedom. Ive been riding this bronco a loooong time, and the good times ended just as I became musically conscious.. One summer when the sun was yellow, the sky was blue, and music faces were glowing.

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Posted (edited)

 

 

7 hours ago, nemophilist said:

 

I do agree that some people on here have unrealistic expectations for band members, can be both unnecessarily and overly-negative, can be unconsciously judgmental, can act very entitled and in some instances probably don't even understand the band.

That's all I'm saying. You had many other words but said the same exact thing with that single run-on sentence. However, like you, I tend to get a bit wordy. There's nothing wrong with the rest of your comment, I only selected the part relevant to this reply. The other part of my OP about trolls being removed, I do feel that those who spread unfounded rumours as so called "well known facts" should be censured. The moderators, in my humble opinion, have every right to not allow the bands own sanctioned website to be used as a tool to tarnish the very same people who provide the website in the first place. The "Don't shit where you eat" proverb comes to mind. Like, if you can't say "I Heard" as opposed to "It's a well known fact" without citing a reliable source, you deserve whatever comes.

 

 

 

Edited by CherrySunburstWorshiper

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, the chase said:

What I've heard is John Bonham kicked the guy in the family jewels and then jumped back onstage.. No denying he assaulted him, but he didn't almost kill him.

Grant and Bindon were later on in the day and more severe..

In the book When Giants Walked The Earth, Bonham was in the room and had to be pulled out for fear of injury and/or he had to go on stage. Can't remember. It was kind of a shitty book at times and great at times as well. Lots of negativity qualfied by the fact the author had a lot of access to Plant over the years. So he cites many sources close to Plant, but nothing first hand. He said the whole band had to get out of Dodge quick as Bill Graham was pressing charges and, that being their last gig that tour it was lucky they could return to England. He (the author) says Grant's son was removing Bonham's name plaque from the dressing room door when a security guard hit him on the head with a blackjack from behind. 

Edited by CherrySunburstWorshiper

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6 minutes ago, CherrySunburstWorshiper said:

 

 

That's all I'm saying. You had many other words but said the same exact thing with that single run-on sentence. However, like you, I tend to get a bit wordy. There's nothing wrong with the rest of your comment, I only selected the part relevant to this reply. The other part of my OP about trolls being removed, I do feel that those who spread unfounded rumours as so called "well known facts" should be censured. The moderators, in my humble opinion, have every right to not allow the bands own sanctioned website to be used as a tool to tarnish the very same people who provide the website in the first place. The "Don't shit where you eat" proverb comes to mind. Like, if you can't say "I Heard" as opposed to "It's a well known fact" without citing a reliable source, you deserve whatever comes.

 

 

As I said In the statement you highlighted, I totally agree with that. But I just don't agree that it's  hateful. People just have subjective opinions. I really don't see too many people just intentionally making stuff up about Zeppelin members on here. Most of it is shot down because many of us on here have read up on the band a lot over the years. But no doubt about the moderators having the right to censor whatever they like on their website. Generally speaking though in the public domain nothing should be censored unless it's libel.

But If the mods did go around subjectively censoring what they arbitrarily deem hateful or untrue then things could get extremely boring on here for people that want to know more about the band members and discuss certain topics.

Part of the problem is that In the world of Zeppelin there really isn't much happening so most of what happens on here is open discussion on the history of every single member, past shows and all of that.

One thing that says a lot about Zeppelin's timelessness is the fact that the band hasn't played since 2007 and this forum still has a pretty good amount of activity. Many forums (especially band forums) across the web are pretty desolate these days.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Chicago said:

I'm in agreement.. I actually saw Jimmy Page collapse onstage in Chicago 1977. 

When Bonzo died in 1980, other than Deathwish 2 you had no idea what was up with Jimmy. When he did reappear at the ARMS shows in 1983, it was shocking to see how bad he looked. It was obvious he was suffering. Many on this forum have unrealistic expectations of him. Almost a hostility. I'm happy he survived it all and he seems to be enjoying his life.

I Agree.  MTV showed the first ARMS concert. Jimmy’s condition was an eye opener. The DW2 soundtrack was so good that I assumed all was well..

He seems healthy and happy now so that’s great. 

Jimmy kind of made his own bed with the “I hope to be seen playing” routine. I usually go to bat and defend him here anyway because some of the criticism gets ridiculous. I do think he’d be better off clamming up until if and when something is ready. I don’t doubt that he wants to do something. 

Edited by the chase

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, nemophilist said:

As I said In the statement you highlighted, I totally agree with that. But I just don't agree that it's  hateful. People just have subjective opinions. I really don't see too many people just intentionally making stuff up about Zeppelin members on here. Most of it is shot down because many of us on here have read up on the band a lot over the years. But no doubt about the moderators having the right to censor whatever they like on their website. Generally speaking though in the public domain nothing should be censored unless it's libel.

But If the mods did go around subjectively censoring what they arbitrarily deem hateful or untrue then things could get extremely boring on here for people that want to know more about the band members and discuss certain topics.

Part of the problem is that In the world of Zeppelin there really isn't much happening so most of what happens on here is open discussion on the history of every single member, past shows and all of that.

One thing that says a lot about Zeppelin's timelessness is the fact that the band hasn't played since 2007 and this forum still has a pretty good amount of activity. Many forums (especially band forums) across the web are pretty desolate these days.

I am not arguing, just clarifying. I don't want anyone to think I want the site sanitized or censored. So here's an example. 

If someone says "Jimmy sucks and can't play for shit". I'm fine with that. I don't know what that person is doing here, but they're entitled. And btw, all opinions are subjective. That's what subjective means.

Here's where it gets dodgy because I don't want to cite actual comments and start a war.

If someone says (and this is hypothetical in case there is such a comment that I haven't seen) " Jimmy can't play and doesn't even know how, it's a common fact that he was playing with So & So and didn't know what an A chord was. I know, I was there, I saw it!" or "it's well documented" but then when you go to look it up, it ain't cause it never happened.  I say "Fuck that guy and good riddance!".

Right now there's another conversation on this very thread that I am a part of and it is a Hearsay discussion over a rumour from 77. I'm actually participating in said conversation. I have no problem with it. You can google it and find that in fact it is very well spoken about from multiple sources. Again, I wasn't there so I don't know and I've never heard or seen anything from someone with first hand knowledge.

 

But, my call for the moderators to do something in the first place is more of an outburst than a legitimate call for it. Like saying Soy Milk should not be allowed to call itself Milk. I do feel that way, but I don't really care. Wanting to plug how hot Olivia Newton John was was as much motivation for the OP as the rest of it.

Edited by CherrySunburstWorshiper

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11 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Are we to deny Page dating an underage girl? The red snapper incident? Bonham and Grant almost murdering a man? The drug use? The infidelity? This isn't slander or hate, it's what happened. Saying Page's playing didn't suffer after 73 and Plant's voice didn't change after 72 is just denying facts. No need to hide the truth. As I've said before, a real fan accepts both sides and doesn't just blindly over-glorify every aspect.

Um, all I know is thank god Jimy's dating of an underage Red Snapper was never made public. OYE!

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1 hour ago, CherrySunburstWorshiper said:

In the book When Giants Walked The Earth, Bonham was in the room and had to be pulled out for fear of injury and/or he had to go on stage. Can't remember. It was kind of a shitty book at times and great at times as well. Lots of negativity qualfied by the fact the author had a lot of access to Plant over the years. So he cites many sources close to Plant, but nothing first hand. He said the whole band had to get out of Dodge quick as Bill Graham was pressing charges and, that being their last gig that tour it was lucky they could return to England. He (the author) says Grant's son was removing Bonham's name plaque from the dressing room door when a security guard hit him on the head with a blackjack from behind. 

Holy shit! How did it go from a stern dressing down and possibly a shove of Grant's son to his kid getting whacked with a blackjack? I never heard anything so outrageous as that. The story as explained by several eyewitness's is as follows: The whole scene was fucked from the moment Zep arrived as John Bindon had words with one of Graham's men which resulted in Bindon shoving (some say hitting) Graham's employee. Then, a couple hours later is when shit started to get real. One of Graham's security staff, who was extremely pissed (as most of Graham's staff was due to earlier incident), spotted what he thought was some random 11 year old kid trying to nick the Led Zeppelin plaque off the dressing room door. The security guard approached the boy (11 year old Warren Grant) and had words with him and shoved him. At the same time Bindon and another Swan Song employee engaged another security staff member who was knocked out by Bindon. Bonzo supposedly witnessed the security guard / Warren incident, went up and kicked the guy in the balls and walked away. Word spreads and gets back to Grant about the incident with his son. Grant, Cole, & Bindon approach the guard, pull him into a trailer, close the door, and proceed to beat the man half to death. If the man had not somehow escaped the trailer who knows what would have happened.

That is the story as I have heard and seen from sources.

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10 hours ago, June72 said:

Does this have anything to do with that thing with Grant's son and the security at some '77 show? Or is this entirely different? I've never heard that they "almost murdered" somebody.

Yes it does.  And no, they didn't "almost murder" someone, that's just a ridiculous claim (not by you, I know you're replying to another post).  

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At the Oakland show they (Bonham partly, but mainly Bindon et al.) roughed up one of Bill Graham's workers.  There was some bad blood before (that this guy may have played a part in) and while the situation got out of control due to the Zep side, it was hardly a horrific, brutal event.  Page himself said later, that if it was really as bad as Graham claimed (who conveniently [and illegally] signed a waiver to get the band to play the second show), Zeppelin would never have been allowed to leave the country.  The '77 tour was ugly in general, but this particular thing has been greatly exaggerated.

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Posted (edited)

Peter Grant heard someone smacked his 11 year old kid. He went bezerk like most protective hot headed Fathers from his generation would have. I’m not defending him, but I can see how something like this could snowball. There are varying versions out there of what happened, Bill Grahams version being the harshest.. The truth is probably in the middle somewhere. 

Edited by the chase

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