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I had forgotten how great this version of Hot Dog is.  Jimmy is killing it on all levels, rhythm playing, country backup riffing, and the guitar break is madness, especially the last part.  

 

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Sounds good but I'm not convinced that artistically the U.S 80' tour would have been a slam dunk. Certainly all the shows would be instant sell-outs and U.S. fans would go berserk at the shows.. But Jimmy and Bonzo were not up to the task, unless someone knows something I don't. And Robert needed a ton of convincing before he even to that relatively modest

Ist leg 18 date tour was ready to go. And being that the set list appeared(?!?!) to be probably almost exact to the 80' Over

Europe Tour, not a good sign. Carouselambra for example was AFAIK not absolutely going to be played, nor a bunch of previously unplayed studio tracks. Robert probably didn't care much, he was going to split anyway and Jimmy and Bonzo were too busy keeping their heads out of the water, let alone being able to transfer studio-only songs to live versions.

 

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Posted (edited)

While listening to Coda the other day it struck me that Wearing and Tearing would have made a fine addition to the 1980 set list.  It is raw, energetic and would have been straightforward to reproduce live.  Nothing too fancy for Jimmy to play, just straight ahead aggression and power.  I think it would have fit very well with the times and with Jimmy's playing that year (and a good fit with Plan'ts voice that year).   Even though it is grungy and rough around the edges, it is catchy in its own unique way.  And it has the stop time around the vocals reminiscent of Black Dog.   I think if they had put out a single for the tour this could have been really popular.

Back then Fool in the Rain was a big radio hit but I don't think they could have pulled that off live in 1980.

Edited by John M

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The 80 US Tour would’ve been a repeat of 77

A chunk of great shows in LA & NY

mostly average shows in places like Dallas 

handful of clunkers in places like Detroit or Indianapolis 

can you imagine the HYSTERIA Zep would’ve encountered at the LA Forum in early 81 after a 4 year absence?   The band would’ve risen to that occasion. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, bluecongo said:

The 80 US Tour would’ve been a repeat of 77

A chunk of great shows in LA & NY

mostly average shows in places like Dallas 

handful of clunkers in places like Detroit or Indianapolis 

can you imagine the HYSTERIA Zep would’ve encountered at the LA Forum in early 81 after a 4 year absence?   The band would’ve risen to that occasion. 

 

 

I'd love to agree with this, but the state they were in I think the shows would've been a trainwreck wherever they played. Page was so horribly thin he looked like a gentle breeze would blow him over. I can't imagine them rising to any occasion in 1981.

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Posted (edited)

So this seems as good a time as any to revisit the following topics...

1. What's your opinion on the band's choice of set list for Tour Over Europe?
2. What was the band's planned set list for Led Zeppelin The 80s Part One?
3. What would your suggestions have been for The 80s Part One set list?

Responses to one or more these may serve to answer the others as well.

When I first started hearing the 80s boots, I thought it was kinda cool they returned to their roots and opened with Train. By all accounts they were after more fast pace, high energy quick hitters to keep up with the punk movement. Mission accomplished. But given time to reflect - and hindsight being 20/20 - I've gone the other way. Why not show a bit more confidence in your newer material and make the 1980 Zeppelin truly Led Zeppelin The 80s? Besides as was stated above, ITTOD was still a hot album well into 1980.

For the American tour, I think In the Evening would have made a nice opener. The start builds - kinda like the '72 LA drone - and the theme of the track fits as an opening number. So then what about the second track? The band typically liked to hit the audience with 2 - or even 3 - songs back to back (to back) to start shows so another song with JPJ on keyboards would probably have to follow. Otherwise the pause would be too long with the switch to bass. Jimmy would probably have to swap out guitars but I'm that wouldn't take that long.

Trampled perhaps? That might result in a 15+ minute opening salvo (Evening + Trampled); perhaps a bit too long. Or a number they didn't attempt as it turned out like South Bound Saurez? I come down on Hot Dog. I always thought Hot Dog came and went too quickly as a stand alone track mid-show. Why not pair it with another number? Perhaps extend the solo a bit? The band may have been uncomfortable not including a more well known song or two at the start, but like I said, showcase the newer material and put it out front.

Then JPJ switches to bass for a stretch. Nobody's Fault and Black Dog would follow. Need at least one more bass tune here. Over the Hills, a well received track in America. The middle of the show could have taken many directions so I'll skip to the latter portion/end of show for now.

It's been strongly suggested that Carouselambra was planned as part of the America 1980 set list. What form would it have taken? And would Jimmy have still done the violin bow segment? You'd have to think so; it was featured in every era of Zeppelin's existence. In only a few instances of abbreviated performances was it not done.

An abbreviated Carouselambra could lead to the bow segment. Then Jimmy could do Black Mountain side (no White Summer) which leads into Kashmir as it had since 77. So essentially Carouselambra replaces White Summer, which some have stated was getting a bit tired by Tour Over Europe. Stairway comes next then the encores (more on those below).

As for the middle stretch of the show, Trampled and Achilles remain. As well as All My Love, very popular at the time. Something would have to be dropped from the Europe set list. I agree with an earlier suggestion that SIBLY would be one to consider. That would be keeping with the theme of more of an up tempo vibe to the show so fewer slower, subdued numbers. Not to an extreme though, so Rain Song stays. And add in Misty Mountain Hop and Sick Again. Part of differentiating the Europe and America set lists, I think, is the receptiveness of the audience to specific tracks. So that would mean stringing together another segment of keyboard tracks for JPJ.

As for the encores, I'd stick with a formula similar to Europe. At least 2 songs from a rotating group - WLL, RnR, Heartbreaker, Breakdown and I agree with the inclusion of Wearing & Tearing. There's been speculation it was planned as part of the 80 American tour; I think it would have fit nicely among a series of encore numbers.

So here's where I come down on a Led Zeppelin The 80s Part One set list, again with the benefit of 40 years hindsight!

In the Evening
Hot Dog
Nodoby's Fault
Black Dog
Over the Hills
Misty Mountain Hop
All My Love
Trampled
Rain Song
Sick Again
Achilles
Carouselambra/bow segment
Black Mountain Side
Kashmir
Stairway
encores

Without getting into song-by-song timings and accounting for between track pauses, I believe that set tops 2 hours. Let's face it, gone were the days of 3 to 3.5 hour sets.

Look forward to anyone's feedback! Thanks, guys.

 

Edited by Zep Hed

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The sun was setting on the band in 1980 whether we want to accept it or not. Over indulgence and distancing between members was evident and there was strong foreshadowing of the Live Aid and the Atlantic Anniversary disasters on the 1980 tour. As talented as they were individually, I don't think they were capable of readjusting their sound to still be musically significant in the 80s, especially Page. Hard to say it but I think he was starting to become the thorn in the group's side.

If Plant's reluctance to even talk about Led Zeppelin after the band's end tells us anything, it's that he was looking to jump ship anyway and Bonham's passing gave him the opportunity to finally free himself of the "Zep front-man" stereotype that you could tell he came to despise. Page needed cleaning up and Jones needed a break to work on whatever mediocre orchestrated soundtrack routine he'd been yearning to do since the mid-seventies. The bond and energy that made these guys so explosive in the beginning had faded and they were more akin to a married couple sleeping in separate rooms. Let's be honest, Led Zeppelin turned into Robert's solo career. That's the sound they were headed for anyway so that's probably pretty similar to what we would have gotten. 

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1 hour ago, gibsonfan159 said:

The sun was setting on the band in 1980 whether we want to accept it or not.

Speculation.

1 hour ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Over indulgence and distancing between members was evident and there was strong foreshadowing of the Live Aid and the Atlantic Anniversary disasters on the 1980 tour.

 The band broke up specifically 'cause Bonzo died. Here, you're referencing events which happened after Bonzo died. This doesn't work.

1 hour ago, gibsonfan159 said:

The sun was setting on the band in 1980 whether we want to accept it or not. Over indulgence and distancing between members was evident and there was strong foreshadowing of the Live Aid and the Atlantic Anniversary disasters on the 1980 tour. As talented as they were individually, I don't think they were capable of readjusting their sound to still be musically significant in the 80s, especially Page. Hard to say it but I think he was starting to become the thorn in the group's side.

If Plant's reluctance to even talk about Led Zeppelin after the band's end tells us anything, it's that he was looking to jump ship anyway and Bonham's passing gave him the opportunity to finally free himself of the "Zep front-man" stereotype that you could tell he came to despise. Page needed cleaning up and Jones needed a break to work on whatever mediocre orchestrated soundtrack routine he'd been yearning to do since the mid-seventies. The bond and energy that made these guys so explosive in the beginning had faded and they were more akin to a married couple sleeping in separate rooms. Let's be honest, Led Zeppelin turned into Robert's solo career. That's the sound they were headed for anyway so that's probably pretty similar to what we would have gotten. 

 

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1 hour ago, gibsonfan159 said:

As talented as they were individually, I don't think they were capable of readjusting their sound to still be musically significant in the 80s, especially Page. Hard to say it but I think he was starting to become the thorn in the group's side.

They adjusted their sound fine. Most fans just choose to complain about it, probably based on existing soundboards. Quality audience recordings reveal better example of their 1980 sound. But hey, they're fucking Led Zeppelin. they don't adjust to the world. The world adjusts to them. fuck, many fans haven't been able to come to grips with ITTOD yet. Fuck 'em.

 

1 hour ago, gibsonfan159 said:

If Plant's reluctance to even talk about Led Zeppelin after the band's end tells us anything, it's that he was looking to jump ship anyway and Bonham's passing gave him the opportunity to finally free himself of the "Zep front-man" stereotype that you could tell he came to despise. 

Speculation. I wouldn't expect Plant to make public his feelings regarding his son's death and the end of this band. Why would you. He still dances and shakes his locks and references the material. What is it exactly that he despises?

1 hour ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Jones needed a break to work on whatever mediocre orchestrated soundtrack routine he'd been yearning to do since the mid-seventies. The bond and energy that made these guys so explosive in the beginning had faded and they were more akin to a married couple sleeping in separate rooms.

Maybe.Do you have a link to credible documentation which confirms this? Or is this speculation. Based on a multitude of copied and pasted comments on the internet.

1 hour ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Let's be honest, Led Zeppelin turned into Robert's solo career. That's the sound they were headed for anyway so that's probably pretty similar to what we would have gotten. 

U ave listened to Robert's solo material and hear Bonzo playing along? And Jimmy Page? Ok.

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1 hour ago, Badgeholder Still said:

The band broke up specifically 'cause Bonzo died. Here, you're referencing events which happened after Bonzo died. This doesn't work.

 

Let me break it down for you; Foreshadowing means you can see hints for things to come. The consistency of their performances was dropping in 1980 mostly due to Page's condition. Bonham being alive or dead didn't exactly affect Page's habits, so that's a moot point. You think if Bonham were behind the kit for Live Aid Page wouldn't have been zonked out of his brain? 

55 minutes ago, Badgeholder Still said:

Do you have a link to credible documentation which confirms this?

I don't know what you're referencing here. The fact that Jones stated several times he wanted to do other things outside the band? That's no secret. 

48 minutes ago, Badgeholder Still said:

Speculation. I wouldn't expect Plant to make public his feelings regarding his son's death and the end of this band. Why would you. He still dances and shakes his locks and references the material. What is it exactly that he despises?

Absolutely not speculation. Anyone who has watched a good amount of Plant interviews knows he strayed from questions about his former band and did everything but flat out roll his eyes when people pressed him on Zep. His shows great humility on his former role and pokes fun at the overblown egos and image constantly. I don't know what you're referencing with his son's death. 

58 minutes ago, Badgeholder Still said:

U ave listened to Robert's solo material and hear Bonzo playing along? And Jimmy Page? Ok.

I know power drumming was no longer a thing, which was evident on ITTOD. Aside from the Purdy shuffle on Fool In The Rain, Bonham could've been any drummer on the album. But I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say that his presence would've inspired the others to craft better songs. And we saw what Page accomplished in the 80s, no argument there. Mediocre at best as his creative drive was depleted. If Bonham hadn't died and the guys still went full blast, you can almost guarantee that Page would've been the one gone. As far as Plant's first album goes, I think it's very similar to a Zep sound. Though if Jones had his say like he did with ITTOD, they might've transformed into a full blown synth pop/New Wave act. Maybe instead of a Droog outfit we could've seen Bonzo come out wearing neon pants. Speculation of course.

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3 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

 Let's be honest, Led Zeppelin turned into Robert's solo career. That's the sound they were headed for anyway so that's probably pretty similar to what we would have gotten. 

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assert that you are much to young to have been interested in and following the band at that time. What a preposterous, revisionist declaration. 

23 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Aside from the Purdy shuffle on Fool In The Rain, Bonham could've been any drummer on the album. But I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say that his presence would've inspired the others to craft better songs. 

Their achievement at the time was they managed to regroup at all. The fact that they did record an album was to some extent a bonus.

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4 hours ago, Zep Hed said:

In the Evening
Hot Dog
Nodoby's Fault
Black Dog
Over the Hills
Misty Mountain Hop
All My Love
Trampled
Rain Song
Sick Again
Achilles
Carouselambra/bow segment
Black Mountain Side
Kashmir
Stairway
encores

For my money WS/BMS should never have made it past the 77 tour. Maybe a tease of it for a minute or so as the intro for Kashmir, but a stand alone piece? Nah. He could barely play it on the 80 tour, I find it cringeworthy to hear. IMHO it was too long on the 77 tour as well

I’d also say if he had to get the bow out on the US tour, then the same thing, keep it short. Maybe drop the old routine and create a new piece to match the feel of Carouselambra

I agree SIBLY should have been dropped. Wearing and Tearing could have helped inject some oomph

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16 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Aside from the Purdy shuffle on Fool In The Rain, Bonham could've been any drummer on the album.

Are you serious here?  What about the middle section of Fool in the Rain?  Carouselambra?  In the Evening?  South Bound Saurez?  All pure Bonham.  Even Hot Dog. 

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15 hours ago, jsj said:

For my money WS/BMS should never have made it past the 77 tour. Maybe a tease of it for a minute or so as the intro for Kashmir, but a stand alone piece? Nah. He could barely play it on the 80 tour, I find it cringeworthy to hear. IMHO it was too long on the 77 tour as well

I’d also say if he had to get the bow out on the US tour, then the same thing, keep it short. Maybe drop the old routine and create a new piece to match the feel of Carouselambra

I agree SIBLY should have been dropped. Wearing and Tearing could have helped inject some oomph

Besides WS/BMS being a sequence into Kashmir I think at Knebworth they played it so people (like me) could go for a slash !

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This thread has gotten me to go back to revisit the tour.  Had forgotten how good a show the kick off gig was.

 

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20 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Let me break it down for you; Foreshadowing means you can see hints for things to come. The consistency of their performances was dropping in 1980 mostly due to Page's condition. Bonham being alive or dead didn't exactly affect Page's habits, so that's a moot point. You think if Bonham were behind the kit for Live Aid Page wouldn't have been zonked out of his brain? 

Foreshadowing? It's still speculation. Still bullshit. Live Aid was 5 years after Bonzo died. I'm not going to try and guess what may of occurred if he was there. I consider that pointless and foolish.

20 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

I don't know what you're referencing here. The fact that Jones stated several times he wanted to do other things outside the band? That's no secret. 

We know he was ready to leave in 1974. ITTOD is widely considered a Jones/Plant effort. And they were touring this material. Where is it documented that in 78/79/80 Jones was unhappy and eager to leave the band to pursue soundtrack work? Provide the link.

20 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Absolutely not speculation. Anyone who has watched a good amount of Plant interviews knows he strayed from questions about his former band and did everything but flat out roll his eyes when people pressed him on Zep. His shows great humility on his former role and pokes fun at the overblown egos and image constantly. I don't know what you're referencing with his son's death. 

That is your interpretation of what Plant has stated and projected in interviews with the press. What he states publicly and what he feels personally, I speculate, are 2 different things. Believe and speculate what you choose. But it ain't facts and shouldn't be presented as such.

20 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

I know power drumming was no longer a thing, which was evident on ITTOD. Aside from the Purdy shuffle on Fool In The Rain, Bonham could've been any drummer on the album.

I'm going to choose not to speculate as to what this is trying to say..imply...whatever....

20 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

And we saw what Page accomplished in the 80s, no argument there. Mediocre at best as his creative drive was depleted. 

His muse had been gone since 1980. This has been covered. Next.

20 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

If Bonham hadn't died and the guys still went full blast, 

Speculation. OMG. Google the definition and learn it already. And before you reply again.

20 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

If Bonham hadn't died and the guys still went full blast, you can almost guarantee that Page would've been the one gone. 

Speculate all you want, but DO NOT present this nonsense as some kind of acknowledged factoid, which other dullards will be inclined to believe, copy & paste. This is ignorant, irresponsible and reprehensible. 

20 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

As far as Plant's first album goes, I think it's very similar to a Zep sound. Though if Jones had his say like he did with ITTOD, they might've transformed into a full blown synth pop/New Wave act. Maybe instead of a Droog outfit we could've seen Bonzo come out wearing neon pants. Speculation of course.

Of course. Why would we expect anything else?

I'm not against speculation. I engage from time to time. Often with Scarlett Johansson in mind.

But if you wanna present yourself as some kinda LZ expert... bring some documented facts.

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As I continue to revisit the 1980 tour I also keep going back to Coda to think about what other songs they could have played.

In addition to Wearing and Tearing,  Bonzo's Montreux would have been cool.  And I have always loved Ozone Baby.  When it came out on Coda I was blown away.  I loved the description in one review that said something about "Jones' dribble and shoot bass line".   Yeah, the lyrics are weak and silly but the track is killer through and through.  Upbeat and fun, lively and energetic.

Now what about Darlene?  I think it could have been a hit, given the times.  Hot Dog was a hit.  Darlene is a real corker as they say.  Sure they lyrics are trite but they fit the  nostalgia of the time.  The second half of the track swings like mad (the DRUMS!!) and Page rips it up.  Not sure he could have done that in 1980 though.  And, since it needs piano, it would be another track where Jones would be limited to bass pedals and not the bass guitar, which does impose some limitations - though he was amazing on bass pedals.  

One more thing - Plant's voice is so strong on Darlene and Wearing and Tearing.  Even parts of Ozone Baby.

Then the grand daddy of them all "You Say You're Gonna Leave Me " or whatever it was called.  If they had finished that it would have been monumental, perfect for the times.

I know this is all speculation, but when people say Zeppelin was washed up, I keep thinking about how good ITTOD was and how innovative it was, but also all the strong material that never made it to the album.

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I know what you mean about Plant, I think he sounded good but he probably wasn't 100% in to it like pre-77. The whole atmosphere of the band changed. I know it was  at the suggestion of Robert that they shortened songs but I think as an artist one of the worst things you can do is go with the latest trends. Zeppelin is timeless and it's a shame that they kind of tried to fit in with the 80s music trajectory. They should have just been themselves.

Although I would not be surprised if Robert wanted songs shortened because he thought Jimmy and Bonham weren't in playing shape to pull off something that wouldn't be embarrassing. Especially Jimmy who sounded like he wasn't practicing much. I know in his prime Jimmy stated he routinely practiced for 3 hours a day. You can clearly hear that in his playing Pre-77. I'm sure his addiction distracted him from practicing. So being really hammered + not practicing heavily/being distracted= you should not do extended solos and jams.

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22 hours ago, Badgeholder Still said:

Speculate all you want, but DO NOT present this nonsense as some kind of acknowledged factoid, which other dullards will be inclined to believe, copy & paste. This is ignorant, irresponsible and reprehensible. 

You know what? You're right. Page was in peak physical condition 1979-1985 and he played more consistently and better than ever. Speculate on that.

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regarding Live Aid.  Bonham's death had a great impact on Jimmy.  His playing was affected by the fact that someone he had a deep connection with musically was now gone and as a person found it hard to play without him. When inspiration dies it's often very hard to bring it back to the level it once was.    

 Lets say Zep had broken up but bonzo was still alive for Live Aid. Jimmy may have well been in the bag but at the same time I doubt his overall level of shyness and grief over a friends death would have been the factor it was on that day and I feel their performance would have been much better. Especially with Bonzo being alive, who knows if he and Jimmy would have formed something else.  While I'm sure there were times when they all wanted to quit it's also true that people will say things in times of frustration that they don't really mean. So it's possible that Jimmy and Bonham might have continued without Robert or Jones thus Jimmy's level of playing may not have deteriorated so rapidly after John's death.  I highly doubt John would just quit playing drums if Zeppelin Broke up.       I for one think Jimmy's playing was just fine for The Firm and Outrider and was almost back to his old self with CP.  It's not easy to reinvent oneself but Jimmy did it four times.  Outrider, The Firm, Coverdale Page and his rebranding of Zeppelin with Plant.

Bottom line, Had John not passed away Led Zeppelin would have continued in one form or another and Jimmy's playing would not have declined so rapidly and even Plant's overall attitude may have been different with his old mate sitting on the kit.  With this is mind, Live Aid would not have been the debacle it was.

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On 3/29/2020 at 11:29 AM, 76229 said:

I'd love to agree with this, but the state they were in I think the shows would've been a trainwreck wherever they played. Page was so horribly thin he looked like a gentle breeze would blow him over. I can't imagine them rising to any occasion in 1981.

I agree. 77 had a few great shows (based off of recordings), some decent ones and a good amount of bad shows. It's one of those things where their past greatness puts higher expectations on them especially in hindsight. I'm sure being there in person is a much better experience than listening to a bootleg 40 years later.  But from what I've heard most of 1980 is really sloppy and the truth is most of that is on Jimmy's lackluster playing. I don't know if he would have improved himself by that US tour. If anything you'd have to say that his playing got sloppier as the years passed. Whether it's from his addictions of other distractions. So the odds are that 1981 might've been just as bad or sloppier in a live setting.

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1 hour ago, gibsonfan159 said:

You know what? You're right. Page was in peak physical condition 1979-1985 and he played more consistently and better than ever. Speculate on that.

Just stop. You've already gotten your ass handed to you by three different people. I suggest lurk mode for the next three to five years. 

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Well, that conversation got bit heated there...woh! Yeah, I guess it's all speculation for Zeppelin after 1980. Sure, there have been releases to keep everyone happy (well, most of us at least) but since the band came to a sudden end... Deep Purple grinded to a halt in 1976, to return in 1984 and one could say that Black Sabbath was never again the same, not even when they reunited. So, how would have Zeppelin fared? I have thought the same about Hendrix and Cream...

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On 3/29/2020 at 12:26 PM, gibsonfan159 said:

I know power drumming was no longer a thing, which was evident on ITTOD. Aside from the Purdy shuffle on Fool In The Rain, Bonham could've been any drummer on the album. But I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say that his presence would've inspired the others to craft better songs. And we saw what Page accomplished in the 80s, no argument there. Mediocre at best as his creative drive was depleted. If Bonham hadn't died and the guys still went full blast, you can almost guarantee that Page would've been the one gone. As far as Plant's first album goes, I think it's very similar to a Zep sound. Though if Jones had his say like he did with ITTOD, they might've transformed into a full blown synth pop/New Wave act. Maybe instead of a Droog outfit we could've seen Bonzo come out wearing neon pants. Speculation of course.

Whoa whoa whoa...hold on there, sonny! 

 "Power drumming was no longer a thing"? Tell that to Van Halen, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Motōrhead, Billy Squire, Phil Collins/Genesis...hell, even a lot of new wave acts like U2 and Simple Minds and Psychedelic Furs were based around big beats and big drums. 

You are severely underrating John Bonham's drumming on ITTOD. "In The Evening" is a master statement in precision four-on-the-floor timing yet still having a funky in the pocket feel.

As for the part I have highlighted in bold, I am confused. Are you implying that if Bonham had not died that they would have kicked Jimmy out of the band?

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1 hour ago, Strider said:

Are you implying that if Bonham had not died that they would have kicked Jimmy out of the band?

Gone as in died from an OD is how I read it. And I tend to agree that that scenario was a real possibility. A US tour? Exactly what they did not need given Page and Bonhams - and even Grant's challenges. Even if they all made it through, I can imagine Plant walking away after a US tour that was around the same quality as the 1980 European one. That is to say, very uneven to be polite.

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