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Grittiest riffs? Thank you JPJ for bring two of the three best in the LZ catalogue


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13 minutes ago, pluribus said:

He also did Good Times Bad Times, didn’t he? And the slide intro to Celebration Day.

I didn't know that.  Both those sound like Page to me, but you might be right. 

 

I always consider that Page puts in a little extra swing to these riffs since they came from someone else.  It's like many bands who do a cover and they play it with more energy since it seems so fresh and foreign to their own creative construction.  Pages effect in both songs is perfect.  When I saw Page and Plant live years ago No Quarter was without a doubt the most sonic.  You could feel the riff in your bones, they must have had the amps overclocked, hah.

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The slide intro to CD was definitely JPJ. I remember reading about a fan who had asked Jones about it, and his response was that he played it on a pedal steel in a special tuning, and that Page could never replicate it, which is why they never use it live.

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Interesting;  I knew NQ had it's origins in the IV sessions, but didn't know Jones' contribution was so large.  Wiki states he wrote the song:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houses_of_the_Holy

I assume Plant received writing credits for the lyrics, how did Page get credit?  Surely for more than just the solo?

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2 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

I assume Plant received writing credits for the lyrics, how did Page get credit?  Surely for more than just the solo?

Certainly the iconic guitar riff.

1994/95  Plant & Page "No Quarter" does not reference either classic riff from 1972, JPJ's or JP's. It's essentially presented as a new song. Convenient, since JPJ is not involved in the project.  By 1998 P&P are comfortable enough to (again without JPJ), present the song in it's 1970's form. The keyboard riff is pure JPJ, and for me, the guitar riff was always a nod to/lift/homage to Machine Gun. To make "No Quarter" the centerpiece of LZ reunion/revival/celebration without JPJ, never made any sense to me. In fact, it seemed almost a direct insult.

Edited by Badgeholder Still
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24 minutes ago, Badgeholder Still said:

 

Certainly the iconic guitar riff.

1994/95  Plant & Page "No Quarter" does not reference either classic riff from 1972, JPJ's or JP's. It's essentially presented as a new song. Convenient, since JPJ is not involved in the project.  By 1998 P&P are comfortable enough to (again without JPJ), present the song in it's 1970's form. The keyboard riff is pure JPJ, and for me, the guitar riff was always a nod to/lift/homage to Machine Gun. To make "No Quarter" the centerpiece of LZ reunion/revival/celebration without JPJ, never made any sense to me. In fact, it seemed almost a direct insult.

So Page came up with the guitar riff, Plant the lyrics, and Jones the keyboard intro/structure?  Makes sense.  And yeah, I agree:  P&P have been dicks to Jones in the post-Zep era.  No idea why, but it's pretty unfair.

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We've discussed this before in relation to other songs.
Guitar solos don't qualify for songwriting credit - just lyrics, melody and the basic tune.
Not intros, middle eights, solos, outros, basslines, drum parts, nowt.
Those are all classed as 'arrangement', not 'songwriting', and don't get you a credit (or royalties).
Mick Ronson wrote the classic bass part for Walk On The Wild Side, one of the most distinctive parts of the song.
It wouldn't remotely be the same song without it. Yet Ronno's credited for 'bass arrangement', but not as a co-writer and he never got a penny for it.
Why? Because Lou Reed wrote the basic tune and that's what counts. The bassline was part of Mick's arrangement of Lou's tune.
Mick Ralphs wrote the classic intro and lead guitar line for All The Young Dudes. Again, wouldn't be remotely the same song without them.
But Ralpher didn't get a co-write or royalties either and for the same reason - Bowie wrote the basic tune and Ralph's contribution is classed as an arrangement of Bowie's tune.
Sucks for Ronson and Ralphs and sounds totally unjust to most people, but that's the deal.
So Jimmy must have contributed something to No Quarter, otherwise he wouldn't be in the credits. 
He once said that Bonzo got a co-credit for Kashmir because the drum part helped him to shape the music during the actual writing of the song. It is speculation, but maybe something Jimmy contributed (the guitar riff?) similarly shaped the way the music for No Quarter developed during the writing stage, rather than being simply added on top of an otherwise complete song? If so, that could be where the co-credit came from. Plausible, but I don't know if there's any actual evidence to back it up.  
   


 

Edited by Brigante
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13 hours ago, Brigante said:

We've discussed this before in relation to other songs.
Guitar solos don't qualify for songwriting credit - just lyrics, melody and the basic tune.
Not intros, middle eights, solos, outros, basslines, drum parts, nowt.
Those are all classed as 'arrangement', not 'songwriting', and don't get you a credit (or royalties).
Mick Ronson wrote the classic bass part for Walk On The Wild Side, one of the most distinctive parts of the song.
It wouldn't remotely be the same song without it. Yet Ronno's credited for 'bass arrangement', but not as a co-writer and he never got a penny for it.
Why? Because Lou Reed wrote the basic tune and that's what counts. The bassline was part of Mick's arrangement of Lou's tune.
Mick Ralphs wrote the classic intro and lead guitar line for All The Young Dudes. Again, wouldn't be remotely the same song without them.
But Ralpher didn't get a co-write or royalties either and for the same reason - Bowie wrote the basic tune and Ralph's contribution is classed as an arrangement of Bowie's tune.
Sucks for Ronson and Ralphs and sounds totally unjust to most people, but that's the deal.
So Jimmy must have contributed something to No Quarter, otherwise he wouldn't be in the credits. 
He once said that Bonzo got a co-credit for Kashmir because the drum part helped him to shape the music during the actual writing of the song. It is speculation, but maybe something Jimmy contributed (the guitar riff?) similarly shaped the way the music for No Quarter developed during the writing stage, rather than being simply added on top of an otherwise complete song? If so, that could be where the co-credit came from. Plausible, but I don't know if there's any actual evidence to back it up.  
   

 


 

Or, even just the evolution, if any, the riff took.  I can't imagine that every guitarist that heard JPJ play No Quarter riff on a bass guitar, or even on lead could take what he is hearing and ultimately produce the effect and even the timing of the riff, maybe even alter the timing or add a note or two. 

I'm not sure how that works itself out in writing credits (one of the most mysterious and subjective issues often in rock history it seems).  I can't even think of a song that Jimmy Page didn't have his name down as a writer other than Bonzos Montreux, All My Love and Southbound Saurez.

Edited by Canadianzepper
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On 5/9/2020 at 11:27 PM, pluribus said:

He also did Good Times Bad Times, didn’t he? And the slide intro to Celebration Day.

Yes the riff in D was a rip from a Motown track and Jimmy brought in the chorus section. JPJ played the slide on Celebration Day.

Edited by sixpense
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