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How does fan remastering of bootlegs work?


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On 7/17/2020 at 5:07 PM, SteveZ98 said:

Sample of the 9/29/71 stereo remaster. I just need to tie up a couple of loose ends and then I'll post it.

 

I'm just a layman who doesn't know from Exciter and Sound Forge and stems. But I have to tell you SteveZ98 that this sounds wicked on my stereo. I run my tv/dvd/YouTube and movie streaming services through my stereo...Nakamichi amplifier, ADCOM tuner/equalizer, JBL speakers.

Can't wait to hear the full remaster.

Edited by Strider
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5 minutes ago, Strider said:

I'm just a layman who doesn't know from Exciter and Sound Forge and stems. But I have to tell you SteveZ98 that this sounds wicked on my stereo. I run my tv/dvd/YouTube and movie streaming services through my stereo...Nakamichi amplifier, ADCOM tuner/equalizer, JBL speakers.

Can't wait to hear the full remaster.

Thanks. I'll probably release the version you heard in the sample, but I always try some things at the last minute before I release a show to see if I can make it a little better. That's where I'm at right now with this one. Eventually I'll realize I should just leave well enough alone, but I like driving myself insane tweaking something that doesn't need tweaking :)

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I'm still putting the finishing touches on the 9/29/71 show (basically trying to tone down the cymbals on a few songs without killing the high end.) I've also started working on the 4/27/77 show. Here's a sample. If the whole thing sounded this good I'd be very happy, but I'm running into a technical problem on some of the songs that I need to figure out (quiet passages get compressed so hard they become inaudible.) I thought it would be easy to fix but it's proven to be more of a pain than I hoped. I have a link for this one song, but not the rest of the show yet. PM if you want a lossless copy of the full song.

 

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  • 1 year later...

I own 2 bootleg audience recording cds of the beach boys 50th anniversary tour 

And I want to restor them as close as possible to soundboard recording 

Is there any softwares to do that both are in mono and I want stereo soundboard recording quality.

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1 hour ago, Tg4510 said:

I own 2 bootleg audience recording cds of the beach boys 50th anniversary tour 

And I want to restor them as close as possible to soundboard recording 

Is there any softwares to do that both are in mono and I want stereo soundboard recording quality.

If the recording is decent it maybe possible to improve it slightly, stereo sbd quality though very doubtful. If the recording is distant, muffled etc, no chance.

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2 hours ago, Tg4510 said:

I own 2 bootleg audience recording cds of the beach boys 50th anniversary tour 

And I want to restor them as close as possible to soundboard recording 

Is there any softwares to do that both are in mono and I want stereo soundboard recording quality.

You want an audience recording to sound like a soundboard recording and to make it stereo? 🤣

Rebalancing and stereo-ising a good quality soundboard recording is challenging enough, and would have been laughed off as impossible even ten years ago. 

Making an audience recording sound like a soundboard is impossible now and unlikely to be possible, even in the long term I'm afraid. 

Also, it's really important to say that there is no audio separation software available where you just load this stuff in and it magically improves.  Audio restoration/remixing/remastering involves a lot of hard work, a lot of compromises and some pretty in-depth knowledge of audio processing.
If you read any of SteveZ98's posts you'll begin to appreciate the time, the expertees and commitment involved.

 

 

Edited by woz70
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4 hours ago, woz70 said:

You want an audience recording to sound like a soundboard recording and to make it stereo? 🤣

Rebalancing and stereo-ising a good quality soundboard recording is challenging enough, and would have been laughed off as impossible even ten years ago. 

Making an audience recording sound like a soundboard is impossible now and unlikely to be possible, even in the long term I'm afraid. 

Soundboards typically do not have any reverb on them, which is why they're often referred to as "dry". Any artificial reverb on the instruments at the show would be added after the point in the signal chain where the sounds from the instruments are recorded on the soundboard recording. That artificial reverb will be captured by the audience recording, and it will also be enhanced on that recording by the natural reverb of the sound bouncing off the walls of the arena (the absence of that natural reverb is why audience recordings of outdoor concerts typically sound different than audience recordings made at indoor shows.) The artificial and natural reverb captured in an audience recording are essentially "baked into" the recording, just like the sound of distortion on a guitar, and can't be removed (they can be reduced, but not removed completely, at least with any software I'm aware of.) Because of that, an audience recording of a show won't sound like a soundboard from the same show, even after remastering the audience recording.

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2 hours ago, SteveZ98 said:

Soundboards typically do not have any reverb on them, which is why they're often referred to as "dry". Any artificial reverb on the instruments at the show would be added after the point in the signal chain where the sounds from the instruments are recorded on the soundboard recording. That artificial reverb will be captured by the audience recording, and it will also be enhanced on that recording by the natural reverb of the sound bouncing off the walls of the arena (the absence of that natural reverb is why audience recordings of outdoor concerts typically sound different than audience recordings made at indoor shows.) The artificial and natural reverb captured in an audience recording are essentially "baked into" the recording, just like the sound of distortion on a guitar, and can't be removed (they can be reduced, but not removed completely, at least with any software I'm aware of.) Because of that, an audience recording of a show won't sound like a soundboard from the same show, even after remastering the audience recording.

Reverb is a bitch to deal with if it's 'baked in', or 'printed'.  It does horrible things if you want to use compression.  Using an expander can deal with excessive reverb tails in the right circumstances, but that adds other issues of its own...
There are some audio restoration algorithms/applications that will remove reverb (iZotope do a really good suite of audio restoration tools... but £££££), but you're generally left with warbly/watery sounding results (same as if you use too much de-noising).  Better for use on speech than music.

When you consider what de-mixing applications actually do - Fourier analysis of the frequency bands in the music, and using AI algorithms to figure out which frequencies/transients belong to which instrument so that they can be reconstructed as (mostly) separate sounds - it's a wonder they work at all!  Add that to the Rock genre, which has really difficult sounds to analyse and separate,  making it exponentially more difficult (separating distorted guitars from snare drum transients and cymbal hits????  Insane!).  Adding poor quality recordings with printed reverb on top of all that is like asking someone to reconstruct an unbroken egg from an omelette.

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 7/21/2020 at 5:27 PM, SteveZ98 said:

I'm still putting the finishing touches on the 9/29/71 show (basically trying to tone down the cymbals on a few songs without killing the high end.) I've also started working on the 4/27/77 show. Here's a sample. If the whole thing sounded this good I'd be very happy, but I'm running into a technical problem on some of the songs that I need to figure out (quiet passages get compressed so hard they become inaudible.) I thought it would be easy to fix but it's proven to be more of a pain than I hoped. I have a link for this one song, but not the rest of the show yet. PM if you want a lossless copy of the full song.

 

Where are you putting your finished Stereo Project? Black Beauty? Have you finished your project? The songs on this thread sound really great!

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1 hour ago, HollywoodBowl1998 said:

Where are you putting your finished Stereo Project? Black Beauty? Have you finished your project? The songs on this thread sound really great!

Thanks. I'll send you a message with the links. Given how many Zep soundboards there are, it will be years before I finish them all, if I ever do. 

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On 7/19/2020 at 6:09 AM, SteveZ98 said:

I don't think I ever finished it. It was more of an experiment to see if modern audience DAT recordings are easier to work with in a matrix than analog tapes from the '70s. Turns out they are a lot easier. There was no speed variation at all between the DAT and the soundboard from the show. 

I know this is a really old quote, but I’d like to encourage you to finish the Page/Plant Japanese show sometime, especially if it is the 02-15 Osaka show.  I did a matrix of the soundboard and audience sources for that show using my own limited skill and resources for myself, and it sounded OK, but there is a potential for an amazing sounding matrix out of those sources, particularly with your skill since you do such phenomenal work.  Everything you have touched has been magical.  
 

P.S.  Anyone who has never heard “Ten Years Gone” with the orchestra from the Osaka show needs to hear it - it is mind blowing.  It’s the only time P/P ever did it, and it’s something else.

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42 minutes ago, slp9b said:

I know this is a really old quote, but I’d like to encourage you to finish the Page/Plant Japanese show sometime, especially if it is the 02-15 Osaka show.  I did a matrix of the soundboard and audience sources for that show using my own limited skill and resources for myself, and it sounded OK, but there is a potential for an amazing sounding matrix out of those sources, particularly with your skill since you do such phenomenal work.  Everything you have touched has been magical.  
 

P.S.  Anyone who has never heard “Ten Years Gone” with the orchestra from the Osaka show needs to hear it - it is mind blowing.  It’s the only time P/P ever did it, and it’s something else.

I finished the 02-15 Osaka show. I just need a better internet connection so I can upload it. I have some other things ready to go too (more Zep, most of the Page/Crowes soundboards, random stuff from other bands), but uploading them now is such a pain that I'm going to wait until I get faster internet. Starlink says I'm scheduled for service some time in March 2022, although I don't know if that means the beginning of the month or the end.

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On 2/27/2022 at 6:10 PM, SteveZ98 said:

I finished the 02-15 Osaka show. I just need a better internet connection so I can upload it. I have some other things ready to go too (more Zep, most of the Page/Crowes soundboards, random stuff from other bands), but uploading them now is such a pain that I'm going to wait until I get faster internet. Starlink says I'm scheduled for service some time in March 2022, although I don't know if that means the beginning of the month or the end.

Wow.  Just wow.  I can only imagine how good that must sound, given your previous work.  Better than Christmas!  For me, the perfect-sounding 02-15 Osaka show is the holy grail of Page/Plant boots.  I am excited for you to get a better internet connection!!!

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7 hours ago, right-there said:

[tisdu] lives.

My remasters are not TISDU. They are remixed to stereo using new technology that splits songs into individual instruments. After they are split, I assemble them into a stereo mix (i.e. guitar in the right channel, etc.) and then remaster them.

TISDU was popular for a brief period well before the software I use became available, and the TISDU technique existed long before it was given that name. It involves splitting the left and right channels of a stereo recording and offsetting them by a small amount (e.g. the left channel is moved .05 seconds ahead of the right channel.) It is very easy to do and does give a fuller sound to the song, but it doesn't allow you to move a given instrument into a specific place in the stereo soundstage like the newer software I use does.

Edited by SteveZ98
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Hi Steve.

"[tisdu] lives" was not a post to indicate that your methodology is in any way '[tisdu] revisited'. They are quite distinct processes.

I know, because I'm the guy who reinvented [tisdu], well aware of its channel-splitting and micro-second shifting origins in record companies' transforming mono sets in the 1960's.

My post was simply to indicate that... [tisdu] lives.

 

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  • 1 month later...

If anyone is interested in trying their hand at remastering, The Plugin Alliance, from which I get most of my software, has teamed up with a couple of other companies and together they are offering a ton of free software to kick off their new enterprise. Please note, I'm not affiliated with any of these companies beyond buying and using their products. Also, their offer ends on April 26th.

https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/blog/blogpost/items/introducing-soundwide.html

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on holiday . noticed this item this morning . am aware stevez98 does really good stuff . decided to wait till 5 o'clock and first glass of the day to read . by way of background bought zep 1 51 years ago aged 11 . more importantly got through my working life without touching a computer . didnt understand a word of the technical side . but loved it . the audio samples are wonderful . why have I never asked steve for a link ..... I dont know how to put stuff on a cd . yup . I make the luddites look advanced . steve dont know how you do it but sure sounds good . well done to the chap that started this discussion and everyone who joined in .... cheers 

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4 hours ago, john morrison said:

on holiday . noticed this item this morning . am aware stevez98 does really good stuff . decided to wait till 5 o'clock and first glass of the day to read . by way of background bought zep 1 51 years ago aged 11 . more importantly got through my working life without touching a computer . didnt understand a word of the technical side . but loved it . the audio samples are wonderful . why have I never asked steve for a link ..... I dont know how to put stuff on a cd . yup . I make the luddites look advanced . steve dont know how you do it but sure sounds good . well done to the chap that started this discussion and everyone who joined in .... cheers 

Thanks. I'll send you a message with all of the links. You should be able to download them and listen to them without needing to burn them to a CD.

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steve , am an old git . which has advantages ... over the course of the last 40 years I have put together a decent hifi . your stuff is too good to play on this thing . a pal is going to down load your work onto cds for me so I can play properly . cant wait .

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37 minutes ago, john morrison said:

steve , am an old git . which has advantages ... over the course of the last 40 years I have put together a decent hifi . your stuff is too good to play on this thing . a pal is going to down load your work onto cds for me so I can play properly . cant wait .

I'm glad you found someone to burn the shows on cds for you. I hope they sound good on your hifi.

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