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McSeven

Presence vs ITTOD

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Whats the big difference between these two albums for you?  

For me.  Presence feels more connected to the first 6 albums.  ITTOD.  It feels like Zep aged.  No longer kids if you get my meaning.  Presence has more solid Riffs/Solos.  The songs come off as darker and not in a good way.  ITTOD riffs are ok, but not spectacular.  I never hear anyone cover this era of Zep.  Fool in the Rain is the only song I hear on the radio.  I can't belive in the 3 yrs between both alums resulted in a sonically weak album in ITTOD.  

Mind you.  At least it feels like Zep are right in time and they tried not to do a throwback.   I see these two albums in the bargin bin at music shops.  Presence my fave is For Your Life/ALStand/ ITTOD-Fool in the Rain/In the Evening/I'm Gonna Crawl.

On Presence at least Zep sound powerful, but dark.  ITTOD.  Bonzo still sound strong.  The others not so much.  

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Presence is a very good album, but strictly hard rock from track to track--not that being hard rock is bad, but the light and shade of a PG is missing for me on Presence. And that's where I prefer the sound of ITTOD; having Jones pretty much in charge with Plant, means the keyboards & piano are back & the tracks have more variety. I don't know if there's a track on ITTOD where you can say one song sounds like the one that preceded it.

And even though the band obviously didn't know this would be the final album, ending with the bluesy I'm Gonna Crawl was a fitting and great finale...

 

Edited by paul carruthers

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Presence is the last great Zeppelin album.  It's gritty and earthy and an accurate reflection of where the band was at the time.  The pathos and musicianship combined beautifully.  While there were hints of where they would go later (Carrots and Pods), it sort of represents the beginning of the end of that era of 70's hard rock.  I've never liked ITTOD.  Too many synths and Page's obviously diminished role (I don't care how many writing credits he had on it, it's clearly not his vision on the album).  Far too much of an 80's new wave vibe.  It's basically a Robert Plant solo album.

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Hello,

New to posting, been lurking for a while and thought why not.

I love both albums for different reasons but I agree ITTOD is more of a Robert / JPJ joint but not a Robert solo album in affect due to JPJ's influence.

I believe Page wanted to be more included but as mentioned, his vision appears to have been set aside for Robert's & JPJ's. I believe it was Page who brought both Shake My Tree (later a CP hit) and Fire to the sessions but neither was used. Fire was fleshed out but SMT appears to have been completely discarded at the time as no demo of the song seems to exist. A real shame as both of those are great songs and would have fit nicely on the album in place of South Bound Suarez & Hot Dog respectively.

Just my 2 cents.

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Presence to me is hard and ruff.  Its Zep in a bad mood.  Not one really happy song on there.  ITTOD sounds a little bit happy.  Its hard to connect ITTOD with the band that made Zep 1 to PG.  I guess each band is different.  To me its like Zep really aged after Presence.  Someone here said it a long time ago.  ITTOD sounds like Zep aged 10 yrs from Presence.  

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Zeppelin aging from PG to ITTOD or a band maturing, after whatever dark clouds were there with Presence and the whole '77 tour. Maybe the lightness of ITTOD represents a band with renewed vigor going into Copenhagen and the planned 1980 US tour. 

Just conjecture on my part....

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2 hours ago, McSeven said:

Presence to me is hard and ruff.  Its Zep in a bad mood.  Not one really happy song on there.  ITTOD sounds a little bit happy.  Its hard to connect ITTOD with the band that made Zep 1 to PG.  I guess each band is different.  To me its like Zep really aged after Presence.  Someone here said it a long time ago.  ITTOD sounds like Zep aged 10 yrs from Presence.  

Well it was 79' and that was a pretty weird year for rock music in general. Most of the rockers were going Disco or (Rod Stewart, KISS) New Wave (Zep, Supertramp, Dobbies, Rush, Fleetwood Mac, Eagles) or Pop (Journey, Styx, Stones). I blame it more on the era than on Zep themselves as all the old guard had changed by 79'. It was the newer or 2nd wave hard rockers (Judas Priest, UFO, Scorpions, Iron Maiden, Ozzy solo, Van Halen, Billy Squire, Meatloaf) who were keeping the faith.

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Presence is one of my favorites because it is so raw and visceral, musically and lyrically.  Out Door is for me just about the most enjoyable to listen to because alot of it is more upbeat and fun to listen to, lyrically and musically.  The vocals on Out Door are fantastic, especially Fool in the Rain and Hot Dog.   Those two songs show just how Zeppelin continued to evolve and be versatile.  They didn't try to make Presence 2 and for that I am grateful.

I know some folks don't like Hot Dog or Fool in the Rain, but they show that Zep could work with traditional song/lyric structures and really do a first rate job.  Both are fantastic story songs with clever turns of phrase and amazing singing.   In some ways it is hard to believe that the same person who sang on Presence is singing on Out Door.  His vocals are so different on Out Door.  Both are fantastic - just different.

There is alot of amazing guitar on Out Door.  In the Evening is a monster in every way.   Dig that slow burn Page does behind Plant during the final chorus and the ending.  Killer tone.  As an added bonus the track has one of the very best introductions of any Zep track.  South Bound has a cool riff and crazy, chaotic solo.  Hot Dog is a clinic for guitar.  Sure it has a traditional chord structure but his rhythm playing is fantastic and the fills and that wild solo - WOW.  Fool has strong riffing and an out of this world one of kind solo from Page.  Lots of guitar in Carouselambra.  Carouselambra gets a lot of heat on this Forum.  I think it would get less heat if the song started with all the instruments together instead of just the keyboards, and if it returned to the first section after the middle section.  I love the third section myself because it is so different and experimental.  So funky!!  

In the Evening has great lyrics although the critics and casual fans focused only on the simplistic chorus that seems like a caricature of Plant.  Carouselambra has some of Plant's most interesting and poetic lyrics ever. (well, so does Achilles!!)

I love Presence but it can be challenging to listen to because it is so unrelenting and so heavy.  For example, I can only listen to Tea for One  once in a while even though I think it is fantastic wall to wall in every way.  Same with For Your Life.  Hots on for Nowhere sounds a bit more upbeat and the lyrics are amazing, but even there the dark parts balance out the eventual optimism.  Again, raw and visceral - some of Plant's finest again.  So even Hots on for Nowhere can be challenging - but that is what makes it so great.   Hots On and For Your Life are Plant at his most reflective.  Raw and challenging.  But of course ultimately rewarding. 

John Bonham is all over Out Door.  His sound and playing are amazing in every way.  So many styles and approaches.  I loved the review in 1979 that talked about his "dry ice drumming" on Carouselambra. 

In the same review (Creem I think) it said that Page was like a squadron of Flying Fortresses in Carouselambra.  Finally that review had one of my favorite review lines about Page in Hot Dog.  It said he "assimilated and destroyed every stock country pickers riff".  I think Hot Dog is Page's homage to his rockabilly roots.  It is glorious start to finish for all 4 of them.   And  it is Plant's homage to Elvis, who he had paid tribute to in all those medlies over the years.

Jones' glorious piano playing on South Bound and Hot Dog !!

Rock and Roll was once defined as fun songs about sad things.  In that sense Hot Dog is pure rock and roll. 

 

Edited by John M

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Personally I preferred ITTOD. For me Presence started with one of Zeps best pieces - Achilles, and finished with one of their most beautiful emotional pieces - Tea for One, but in comparison the tracks in between sounded too much like one session and not as developed. I think that Presence could have been better had the track listing been different, say start with For your Life and have Achilles finishing the side, in the way that Kashmir finished side 2 of PG.  ITTOD felt like an album of joy, which is amazing considering Plants tragedies etc, to get to 1979 and bring out something so upbeat, so varied. The first half from In the Evening to Hot Dog seemed great fun, and very uplifting. The second half was nothing but epic. Carouselambra seemed to carry on from where Achilles left off. My only criticism of it was that Robert Plants vocals in the first section should have been mixed louder.....but what a track. All of my Love was beautiful and I'm Gonna Crawl another slow blues but so positive and joyful compared to the Presence closing track Tea for One. 

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On 9/4/2020 at 10:22 PM, John M said:

Presence is one of my favorites because it is so raw and visceral, musically and lyrically.  Out Door is for me just about the most enjoyable to listen to because alot of it is more upbeat and fun to listen to, lyrically and musically.  The vocals on Out Door are fantastic, especially Fool in the Rain and Hot Dog.   Those two songs show just how Zeppelin continued to evolve and be versatile.  They didn't try to make Presence 2 and for that I am grateful.

I know some folks don't like Hot Dog or Fool in the Rain, but they show that Zep could work with traditional song/lyric structures and really do a first rate job.  Both are fantastic story songs with clever turns of phrase and amazing singing.   In some ways it is hard to believe that the same person who sang on Presence is singing on Out Door.  His vocals are so different on Out Door.  Both are fantastic - just different.

There is alot of amazing guitar on Out Door.  In the Evening is a monster in every way.   Dig that slow burn Page does behind Plant during the final chorus and the ending.  Killer tone.  As an added bonus the track has one of the very best introductions of any Zep track.  South Bound has a cool riff and crazy, chaotic solo.  Hot Dog is a clinic for guitar.  Sure it has a traditional chord structure but his rhythm playing is fantastic and the fills and that wild solo - WOW.  Fool has strong riffing and an out of this world one of kind solo from Page.  Lots of guitar in Carouselambra.  Carouselambra gets a lot of heat on this Forum.  I think it would get less heat if the song started with all the instruments together instead of just the keyboards, and if it returned to the first section after the middle section.  I love the third section myself because it is so different and experimental.  So funky!!  

In the Evening has great lyrics although the critics and casual fans focused only on the simplistic chorus that seems like a caricature of Plant.  Carouselambra has some of Plant's most interesting and poetic lyrics ever. (well, so does Achilles!!)

I love Presence but it can be challenging to listen to because it is so unrelenting and so heavy.  For example, I can only listen to Tea for One  once in a while even though I think it is fantastic wall to wall in every way.  Same with For Your Life.  Hots on for Nowhere sounds a bit more upbeat and the lyrics are amazing, but even there the dark parts balance out the eventual optimism.  Again, raw and visceral - some of Plant's finest again.  So even Hots on for Nowhere can be challenging - but that is what makes it so great.   Hots On and For Your Life are Plant at his most reflective.  Raw and challenging.  But of course ultimately rewarding. 

John Bonham is all over Out Door.  His sound and playing are amazing in every way.  So many styles and approaches.  I loved the review in 1979 that talked about his "dry ice drumming" on Carouselambra. 

In the same review (Creem I think) it said that Page was like a squadron of Flying Fortresses in Carouselambra.  Finally that review had one of my favorite review lines about Page in Hot Dog.  It said he "assimilated and destroyed every stock country pickers riff".  I think Hot Dog is Page's homage to his rockabilly roots.  It is glorious start to finish for all 4 of them.   And  it is Plant's homage to Elvis, who he had paid tribute to in all those medlies over the years.

Jones' glorious piano playing on South Bound and Hot Dog !!

Rock and Roll was once defined as fun songs about sad things.  In that sense Hot Dog is pure rock and roll. 

 

Excellent post mate.

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As for Presence, I agree with PC; it's missing the elements of 'light and shade' that made the previous albums so outstanding.   However, I don't think that it suffers much regardless.   It's been in the cd player in my commuter for a couple of weeks.  I never found it to be the instant classic like some of the earlier records but as the years passed I've really grown to enjoy it.  For Your Life, Candy Store Rock, Royal Orleans, great tunes. Bonham was never better.  ITTOD;  I find I'm Gonna Crawl, In The Evening, Hot Dog enjoyable but not much else. My least favorite Zeppelin record. 

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Presence is a mood album for me. I'm never gonna play just one track on it but rather play the album in it's entirety. That being said, If I could only keep one of the two I'd keep ITTOD because it has more variety. 

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If Pressence and ITTOD were so great.  Why is it when I am in a Record shop. Both those albums are in the bargain bin? 

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43 minutes ago, McSeven said:

If Pressence and ITTOD were so great.  Why is it when I am in a Record shop. Both those albums are in the bargain bin? 

Because the internet and made for radio bands/media have ruined it for bands with music that makes you think about what you are hearing. If Either Album came out today both would be praised as avant garde ultra rock but the sales would probably be less than desirable because of long songs and deep lyrics that (once again) make you think and most people don't want to think hence the bargain bin.

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1 hour ago, McSeven said:

If Pressence and ITTOD were so great.  Why is it when I am in a Record shop. Both those albums are in the bargain bin? 

Likely because both albums are rather challenging as Hummingbird pointed out, lyrically and musically. There is a reason AC/DC sell a ton of albums, because they keep remaking Back in Black over, and over, and over again which is exactly what the simpletons like. The audience for most rock music is very similar to the audience for pop & top 40 in that they do not want variety, complexity, deep lyrics. They just want the catchy hook and tunes about shitty relationships, drugs, and partying. You get any deeper or complex than that and you lose a good chunk of the audience. Even Dylan initially lost his audience simply by going electric in the mid-60's.

To put it simply, if a person likes Key Lime Pie that is what they want, they don't want to try Coconut Cream even if they may like it better because...Key Lime Pie. Bands such as Zeppelin, Floyd, Yes, and even the Beatles came along at a time when people actually had thoughts and wanted to be challenged. If any of those bands tried to start up today they would all (except the Beatles) have a very small, limited, and fanatical audience more akin to Phish or Steven Wilson and that would be the best they could hope for. Now regarding the Beatles, they would be huge up to Rubber Soul and then lose 50% of their audience with Revolver and another 30% with the release of Sgt. Pepper. The White Album would literally tank their career in the current market environment.

The only issue I have would be with ITTOD due to production, mixing, and the overuse of 80's synths but the songs themselves are all really really good IMO. Carouselambra, with a bit of tweeking, could have been the next Kashmir but Plant's vocals are way too low in the mix, Page's guitars need to be more up front, and Jones keys need to be mixed much lower. Just imagine the intro with Page's guitar doubling the keys and then when the drums come in the guitar army joins in with the volume about 1.5x louder and they keys lower.

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I don't find Page in steller form on ITTOD.  He stings on Presence though.  Perhaps its the production.  I Zep is better when Page is at the helm of producing.  

 

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3 hours ago, McSeven said:

If Pressence and ITTOD were so great.  Why is it when I am in a Record shop. Both those albums are in the bargain bin? 

Where are these bargain bins? In the UK? Because I don't see them in the bargain bins in Los Angeles, San Francisco, or Seattle.

2 hours ago, Mr.Bones said:

Likely because both albums are rather challenging as Hummingbird pointed out, lyrically and musically. There is a reason AC/DC sell a ton of albums, because they keep remaking Back in Black over, and over, and over again which is exactly what the simpletons like. The audience for most rock music is very similar to the audience for pop & top 40 in that they do not want variety, complexity, deep lyrics. They just want the catchy hook and tunes about shitty relationships, drugs, and partying. You get any deeper or complex than that and you lose a good chunk of the audience. Even Dylan initially lost his audience simply by going electric in the mid-60's.

That is too simplistic and you are actually overstating AC/DC's case.

Led Zeppelin has sold way more albums than AC/DC and their support is more evenly spread out across their catalogue.

Led Zeppelin IV (over 23 million), Led Zeppelin II, Houses of the Holy, Physical Graffiti, and the 1990 box set have all sold over 10 million.

AC/DC has only one album over 10 milion...Back in Black. AC/DC fans buy primarily two records...Back in Black and Highway to Hell. Even In Through the Out Door has sold more than For Those About to Rock and the rest of AC/DC's catalogue. Nobody is buying AC/DC's later albums.

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5 hours ago, Strider said:

Where are these bargain bins? In the UK? Because I don't see them in the bargain bins in Los Angeles, San Francisco, or Seattle.

That is too simplistic and you are actually overstating AC/DC's case.

Led Zeppelin has sold way more albums than AC/DC and their support is more evenly spread out across their catalogue.

Led Zeppelin IV (over 23 million), Led Zeppelin II, Houses of the Holy, Physical Graffiti, and the 1990 box set have all sold over 10 million.

AC/DC has only one album over 10 milion...Back in Black. AC/DC fans buy primarily two records...Back in Black and Highway to Hell. Even In Through the Out Door has sold more than For Those About to Rock and the rest of AC/DC's catalogue. Nobody is buying AC/DC's later albums.

Whoa, relax there chief I was only making an example within the context of todays audience, not to be taken historically.

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Can I respectfully offer my opinion.

I think the guitar is a rather unfashionable instrument at the moment, although lockdown might have given it a boost with the apparent rise in people learning to play the guitar over rescent months. Lack of rehersal spaces, the rise in computer tech and solo artists having control over their work seems to be the order of the day.

The lack of vision by record companies. I mentioned on another thread, could you imagine record companies allowing The Beatles to not tour at the peak of their powers. Zep would have far more battles regarding their musical adventures with their label and Bowie probably would have left the industry to do something else.

Someone once mentioned here that Rock has also splintered into many sub genre's; so that has not helped either.

I find Prescence and ITTOD really interesting but difficult LP's to enjoy per se.

Maybe that record store just overstocked or we have the younger generation only wanting the classic Lp's IV or PG for example for LZ ro SPLHCB or AR rather than the more foundational or abstract works (I find the White LP hard work).

Simply put I am just pleased that ITTOD and Pesence and The Whit LP got recorded at all as they would not get the chance now.

By the way the movie industry has the same issues. Apocalypse Now, Bladerunner and a few others would have had the productions shut down becuase it is all about the bottom line now.

Best Wishes

 

Annie.

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, McSeven said:

I don't find Page in steller form on ITTOD.  He stings on Presence though.  Perhaps its the production.  I Zep is better when Page is at the helm of producing.  

 

Page is in perfect form for ITTOD. He plays exactly what he needs to play an no more. The solo for I'm Gonna Crawl is pure genius.

I always wondered why it seems to be a problem for people that he decided to allow the rest of the band to have a larger role for that album? Presence is almost all Jimmy, sure the whole band is on display but Jimmy's presence on the album is the main focus.  The only natural conclusion is for Jimmy to allow the band some latitude and do an album where he isn't the main focus. I see it as the other side of the coin and part of the natural progression of the band.

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12 hours ago, Strider said:

Where are these bargain bins? In the UK? Because I don't see them in the bargain bins in Los Angeles, San Francisco, or Seattle.

 

The Bargain bin has been around for a long time and although it's sad to say I started seeing Zep albums in the bin at Walmart as far back as 1995

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5 hours ago, hummingbird69 said:

The Bargain bin has been around for a long time and although it's sad to say I started seeing Zep albums in the bin at Walmart as far back as 1995

I need to come out where you live, then. Because the West Coast is still a Led Zeppelin stronghold. Most record shop owners out here know the value of Led Zeppelin vinyl in the marketplace and you rarely find deals. Good luck finding clean copies of any Led Zeppelin album for under $10 these days. And if it is one of the Classic Vinyl remasters, good luck finding one for under $100.

The only time I have been in a record shop and seen a Led Zeppelin album in the bargain bins ($3 and under) was when it was a shitty scratched up copy. 

Edited by Strider

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23 minutes ago, Strider said:

I need to come out where you live, then. Because the West Coast is still a Led Zeppelin stronghold. Most record shop owners out here know the value of Led Zeppelin vinyl in the marketplace and you rarely find deals. Good luck finding clean copies of any Led Zeppelin album for under $10 these days. And if it is one of the Classic Vinyl remasters, good luck finding one for under $100.

The only time I have been in a record shop and seen a Led Zeppelin album in the bargain bins ($3 and under) was when it was a shitty scratched up copy. 

I'm on the East coast and vinyl was dead by the mid 90's,  when I said Zep in the bargain bin I meant cds. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

Edited by hummingbird69

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I play Presence a lot. I also really like ITTOD. The trouble with these two albums is that they followed the others, but that doesn't make them bad records. If you combined the two then it would have been truly great. Achilles, Nobody's Fault, Tea For One, In The Evening, Carouselambra, Fool In The Rain, I'm Gonna Crawl.

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