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Why are you in (that) religion?


Big Klu

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Heh, you mean....Blessed Ludovica Albertoni?

Blessed_Ludovica_Albertoni.jpg

Yeah, that's very sensual...yet very Baroque.

Yup. But I feel like it's not the only place I've seen it. I suppose it might be because I have a dirty mind, but once you start looking you see them everywhere, certain facial expressions in those paintings . . . well, I know where I've seen them in real life.

:whistling:

I won't go as far as to decide whether it equates with religion or not, but it certainly shows the constraint under which he had to work. It's rather curious that the expressions of faith in art hugely depent on the demand of the church and the fashion of the age.

I think the church has always needed art or music or spectacle to sell it's message. And it's not the wonderful things don't come out of it, from Michaelangelo to Aretha Franklin. But can you say that the secular works of these same artists weren't just as great if not greater? I think that great art comes from opening up yourself, your emotions, things most reserve to express in private- fear, anger, love, ecstasy- and express them in public. Is some of that faith driven? Sure it is. But just as short sighted as it would be to deny that, it would be short sighted to deny the commercial element of these highly decorated Christianity HQs. One wonders how at home Christ would feel in one.

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I don't believe that someone must say "I'm gonna paint a religious work of art" or a "religious piece of music" is the only way that expresses somenthing that ultimately gives God glory. Since all talent, human ability comes from a Creator I believe whether its a painting, music, or someone throwing a baseball 99mph all testifies to this.

That may seemingly contradict what I said earlier but some do specifically set out to express a certain message such as the Sistene Chapel or a cantata - others do not...yet it is all a gift from a Creator.

Do you really believe that you can ultimately give God glory by creating a volatile copy of him?

Yes, you do contradict yourself, and not seemingly. It rather seems that you're not entirely sure what you believe in. I really do believe that you have to say 'I'm gonna do this' to really do it. One does not decorate an altar on a whim. Every religion has certain criteria of how a 'religious work of art' should look like, doesn't it. You cannot really disagree with me, because then you'd have to admit that those pictures Scratch sometimes uses as his signature are also religious works of art that ultimately give God glory. Tomorrow, I could go and do a painting of the a woodland pasture or whatever, thinking that I'm expressing something that ultimately gives my god glory. The problem is that it would never be as great as the real thing, and it would only show my own vanity if I claimed that it is. You can admire the talent of others, but I believe that it's rather foolish to think that any work of art will allow you to get neared the Creator, or even make you understand him.

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Kat, it's really very simple: Klu asked earlier about the design of churches to which there was a simple point made, design centuries ago were made with the intent in mind of drawing ones attention heavenward to a Creator thus the grandiose works of not only art but even music that was written with that purpose in mind. Sure you can worship in a mud hut just as much but a very elementary way of looking at it would be "give our best for the Creator" while at the same time drawing one's attention heavenward.

At the same time (the Reformed perspective from which I view the Christian faith) recognizes that every gift comes from God and while some choose to openly express their faith in a work of art or a piece of music, one such as myself can look at a painting of an apple that expresses a God-given talent from the artist and yes, to me that is an expression of a God given gift to create a such a painting.....or as I said a symphony....or <fill-in-the-blank>.

Yes, I very much know what I believe - if you don't grasp my point, then I won't lose one second of sleep over it.

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I don't think anyone here has said anything to make you sound so defensive. Well, maybe that just my impressing, and you're simply tired of discussing it?

All in all, it doesn't make much difference. I just thought there was some neat discussion concerning the manifestation of beliefs going on. Pity you don't want to carry on, since you were the first one who replied to Klu's post, if I'm not mistaken.

I wasn't being defensive at all. I'm simply tired of the subject on religion here. Every single time, it just turns into 5 on 1 or whatnot and it gets old.

Anywho my bad, I thought you didn't think Michaelangelo was artistic and whatnot.

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With all due respect, you taking me seriously is neither a priority nor a concern for me; that's your business. Even though you're indicating that you don't take me seriously, I was happy to share my thoughts with you; I enjoyed responding to your challenges and questions; and I've appreciated your feedback.. all every bit as much as if you were to take me seriously. Same-same, afaic. ;)

Thanks for the lively and thoughtful exchange. :)

Namaste, friend,

:hippy:

It should be your concern whether your actions are in line with your beliefs - if you take them seriously. Otherwise you can congratulate yourself on how great you think you are till the cows come home - and people will still see through you. That's the only challenge I've put up for you. We'll see how well you fare with that one... :D

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It should be your concern whether your actions are in line with your beliefs - if you take them seriously. Otherwise you can congratulate yourself on how great you think you are til the cows come home - and people will still see through you. That's the only challenge I've put up for you. We'll see how well you fare with that one... :D

Thank you for being concerned enough to tell me what you think my concern should be. Should I become concerned about what you think my concern should be, hopefully I'll remember that it's that that you think my concern should be. :D

The highlighted comment makes for an easy-to-see

example of how projections skew/alter perceptions. B)

The reality:

I have not made any suggestion whatsoever that I consider myself to be great.

I have on several occasions acknowledged having many flaws and shortcomings.

Your projection:

Hermit is an arrogant, hypocritical, "less-likeable" twat.

Your resulting skewed perception of reality:

Hermit congratulates himself on how great he thinks he is.

I wonder what your perception would be if you were to simply

see "the reality" without imposing your projection onto it? :whistling:

Speaking of "seeing through" someone.. have you ever contemplated what you'd find when you see through whatever it is you find when you see through some aspect of someone's (or your own) personality? For example, say you see through someone's arrogance and something else is revealed. What do you see when you see through that which has been revealed? Continuing that process of "seeing through", what is revealed when you see all the way through every aspect of someone's (or your own) personality? When you see through not just all the so-called "less-likeable" aspects, but also through all the so-called "good" aspects of one's personality.. what, if anything, ultimately remains to be seen? And also.. who is it that is doing the seeing?

:whistling:

Should you ask me, I'd say figuring that out should be your concern!yesnod.gif

Fare thee well on that one, friend! :cheer:

:hippy:

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Speaking of "seeing through" someone.. have you ever contemplated what you'd find when you see through whatever it is you find when you see through some aspect of someone's (or your own) personality? For example, say you see through someone's arrogance and something else is revealed. What do you see when you see through that which has been revealed? Continuing that process of "seeing through", what is revealed when you see all the way through every aspect of someone's (or your own) personality? When you see through not just all the so-called "less-likeable" aspects, but also through all the so-called "good" aspects of one's personality.. what, if anything, ultimately remains to be seen? And also.. who is it that is doing the seeing?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I thought about this, and in my opinion, after seeing through the good and bad aspects you'd be seeing the exact same thing you saw at face value, without seeing through anything. Correct?

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I know this wasn't directed at me, but I thought about this, and in my opinion, after seeing through the good and bad aspects you'd be seeing the exact same thing you saw at face value, without seeing through anything. Correct?

I welcome your (and anyone else's) thoughts about it, Jarlaxle.

I think its really cool that you've given it some consideration. Cheers! :beer:

Before I comment on your response though, I'm gonna wait a bit to see what,

if anything, Fuzzy might say about "seeing (all the way) through" personality. ;)

~ H

:hippy:

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Thank you for being concerned enough to tell me what you think my concern should be. Should I become concerned about what you think my concern should be, hopefully I'll remember that it's that that you think my concern should be. :D

The highlighted comment makes for an easy-to-see

example of how projections skew/alter perceptions. B)

The reality:

I have not made any suggestion whatsoever that I consider myself to be great.

I have on several occasions acknowledged having many flaws and shortcomings.

Your projection:

Hermit is an arrogant, hypocritical, "less-likeable" twat.

Your resulting skewed perception of reality:

Hermit congratulates himself on how great he thinks he is.

I wonder what your perception would be if you were to simply

see "the reality" without imposing your projection onto it? :whistling:

:hippy:

Thats all nice and neat, but it would be way more entertaining for the board if you dropped the self-actualized Gandhi-speak and started throwing out some F-bombs.

"Whiny bitch, you're so beneath me! Really, cause I'm in Tibet."

or

"The Buddhas on my side you sloppy jackalope!"

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None. Am I the only atheist around?

I feel sorry for those #1s as they haven't had a choice :( The denial of choice for the children makes me sad and mad, that is what I truly hate about religions.

I don't know why you assume they have no choice. Atheist Children come from Theistic religious households all the time.

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Thats all nice and neat, but it would be way more entertaining for the board if you dropped the self-actualized Gandhi-speak and started throwing out some F-bombs.

"Whiny bitch, you're so beneath me! Really, cause I'm in Tibet."

or

"The Buddhas on my side you sloppy jackalope!"

I bet he'd love to do just that but that wouldn't be in line with his claim to "generate love and compassion". It's the beauty of our argument - all he can resort to is bombarding me with winking smilies and "namastes". :D

Hermit - I'll spell it out for you...very... very... slow-ly: Your theories about Buddhism are useless as long as you don't put them into practice. So you babbling on about your theories is of no interest to me what-so-ever. Got that now? Good boy! :)

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I bet he'd love to do just that but that wouldn't be in line with his claim to "generate love and compassion". It's the beauty of our argument - all he can resort to is bombarding me with winking smilies and "namastes". :D

"I bet he'd love to do just that [drop f-bombs]" is a belief of yours that you're projecting onto me. That single comment represents a set of assumptions that you're making about what you think my state of mind is; about what you think my feelings toward you are; and about how you think I'd like to act toward you. You project those assumptions onto me and then perceive me in those terms. The fact of the matter is that your assumptions-based, projection-tainted perception of me has nothing to do with what my actual state of mind is; has nothing to do with what my actual feelings toward you are; and has nothing to do with how I actually want to act toward you.

Your assumptions and projections have nothing to do with me;

they're a reflection of your state of mind, Fuzzy, not mine. ;)

"all he can resort to is bombarding me with winking smilies and namastes" is another skewed perception based on your assumption-based projections. The reality is that I'm not limited at all (other than by the forum TOA) in how I communicate with you; I am free to say as I please. The fact of the matter is that the winking smilies and namastes were exactly how I wanted to express myself in those instances. Your perception is skewed by your projections.

"our argument" is indicative of another projection. It may well be your experience that you're engaged in an argument, but its not my experience that I'm engaged in an argument. My experience of our exchange has been that we've been having a very pleasant, playful-yet-serious discussion. Your projection is a reflection of your argumentative state of mind, Fuzzy; it has absolutely nothing to do with my 'we're having a very pleasant, playful-yet-serious discussion' state of mind.

Given that I perceive us to be having a very pleasant, playful-yet-serious discussion, maybe you can now accept that the 'winking smilies and namastes' have not been substitutes for dropping f-bombs, but in fact have been an indication of my actual state of mind during this discussion. See how it all ties together? ..and how projections skew perceptions? B)

You either have an interest in trying to perceive things as they actually are, or you choose instead to continue being a slave to your unconscious assumptions and projections and the skewed perceptions that result. What you choose in that regard is neither here nor there to me; that's your business, not mine. What you perceive is also neither here nor there to me; that too is your business, not mine. The fact of the matter is that my experience is not dependent upon your choices and your perceptions; my experience remains my experience.

If you prefer to cling to your assumptions, projections, and skewed perceptions of what my experience with you has been, so be it; go ahead and cling to your misperceptions. But if you're interested in knowing what my actual experience has been (and is), I refer you to the following slightly-amended quote, and I reiterate the sentiments expressed therein. -->

With all due respect, you taking me seriously is neither a priority nor a concern for me; that's your business. Even though you're indicating that you don't take me seriously [and that my 'useless babbling' is of no interest to you what-so-ever], I have been happy to share my thoughts with you; I have enjoyed responding to your challenges and questions; and I've appreciated your feedback.. all every bit as much as if you were to take me seriously [and as if what I had to say was of some interest to you]. Same-same, afaic. ;)

Thanks for the lively and thoughtful exchange. :)

Namaste, friend,

:hippy:

Hermit - I'll spell it out for you...very... very... slow-ly: Your theories about Buddhism are useless as long as you don't put them into practice. So you babbling on about your theories is of no interest to me what-so-ever. Got that now? Good boy! :)

Namaste, friend,

:hippy:

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"I bet he'd love to do just that [drop f-bombs]" is a belief of yours that you're projecting onto me. That single comment represents a set of assumptions that you're making about what you think my state of mind is; about what you think my feelings toward you are; and about how you think I'd like to act toward you. You project those assumptions onto me and then perceive me in those terms. The fact of the matter is that your assumptions-based, projection-tainted perception of me has nothing to do with what my actual state of mind is; has nothing to do with what my actual feelings toward you are; and has nothing to do with how I actually want to act toward you.

Your assumptions and projections have nothing to do with me;

they're a reflection of your state of mind, Fuzzy, not mine. ;)

"all he can resort to is bombarding me with winking smilies and namastes" is another skewed perception based on your assumption-based projections. The reality is that I'm not limited at all (other than by the forum TOA) in how I communicate with you; I am free to say as I please. The fact of the matter is that the winking smilies and namastes were exactly how I wanted to express myself in those instances. Your perception is skewed by your projections.

"our argument" is indicative of another projection. It may well be your experience that you're engaged in an argument, but its not my experience that I'm engaged in an argument. My experience of our exchange has been that we've been having a very pleasant, playful-yet-serious discussion. Your projection is a reflection of your argumentative state of mind, Fuzzy; it has absolutely nothing to do with my 'we're having a very pleasant, playful-yet-serious discussion' state of mind.

Given that I perceive us to be having a very pleasant, playful-yet-serious discussion, maybe you can now accept that the 'winking smilies and namastes' have not been substitutes for dropping f-bombs, but in fact have been an indication of my actual state of mind during this discussion. See how it all ties together? ..and how projections skew perceptions? B)

You either have an interest in trying to perceive things as they actually are, or you choose instead to continue being a slave to your unconscious assumptions and projections and the skewed perceptions that result. What you choose in that regard is neither here nor there to me; that's your business, not mine. What you perceive is also neither here nor there to me; that too is your business, not mine. The fact of the matter is that my experience is not dependent upon your choices and your perceptions; my experience remains my experience.

If you prefer to cling to your assumptions, projections, and skewed perceptions of what my experience with you has been, so be it; go ahead and cling to your misperceptions. But if you're interested in knowing what my actual experience has been (and is), I refer you to the following slightly-amended quote, and I reiterate the sentiments expressed therein. -->

Namaste, friend,

:hippy:

Your state of mind - my state of mind...Once you realize that the self is non-existent you'll appreciate that "your" state of mind is just a projection of blah-blah-blah on the huge screen of your ego.

Lachaim.

:chickeddance:

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Your state of mind - my state of mind...Once you realize that the self is non-existent you'll appreciate that "your" state of mind is just a projection of blah-blah-blah on the huge screen of your ego.

Lachaim.

:chickeddance:

""your" state of mind is just a projection of

blah-blah-blah on the huge screen of your ego."

Is ego the screen,.. or is ego what's being projected? :whistling:

[hint: ego is not the screen. ;) ]

"Once you realize that the self is non-existent you'll

appreciate that "your" state of mind is just a projection.."

If the self is non-existent, then..

* who or what is it that's doing the "realizing" and "appreciating"?

* who or what is it that's aware of both the projection and the "screen"?

* who or what is it that's aware that there is awareness?

:whistling:

Om Shanti, friend.

:hippy:

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Tepid, tidy sex... now that would kill it.

... you wish...

A sledgehammer-wielding pussy.. now that would kill it.

threadkill.gif

uhh, then again,.. maybe not. :unsure:

I perceive this whole conversation to be hilarious.

:lol:

Thats the spirit! :thumbsup:

:beer:

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I thought about this, and in my opinion, after seeing through the good and bad aspects you'd be seeing the exact same thing you saw at face value, without seeing through anything. Correct?

Not a bad guess, but.. not what I was getting at either. ;)

The question was 'what remains to be seen when you've seen all the way through all aspects of personality?' The answer "..you'd be seeing the exact same thing you saw at face value, without seeing through anything" would mean that at the end of the "seeing through" process you're still seeing personality; and that would suggest that 'when personality is seen through, what's left to be seen.. ie, what remains.. is personality'. I'd contend though that you haven't really "seen though" one's arrogance (for example), if in the end you're still left seeing arrogance.

I think we might agree that one's personality is not the essence of their being-ness. The question 'when one's sees all the way through all the various aspects of personality, what remains to be seen?' is a question that can, through the process of seeking an answer (experientially rather than conceptually), lead one to some discoveries about the essence of one's being-ness.. ie, the nature of the True Self. Thats more what I was getting at.

Kudos to you for being willing to take a crack at it though, Jarlaxle. :beer:

:hippy:

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Not a bad guess, but.. not what I was getting at either. ;)

The question was 'what remains to be seen when you've seen all the way through all aspects of personality?' The answer "..you'd be seeing the exact same thing you saw at face value, without seeing through anything" would mean that at the end of the "seeing through" process you're still seeing personality; and that would suggest that 'when personality is seen through, what's left to be seen.. ie, what remains.. is personality'. I'd contend though that you haven't really "seen though" one's arrogance (for example), if in the end you're still left seeing arrogance.

I think we might agree that one's personality is not the essence of their being-ness. The question 'when one's sees all the way through all the various aspects of personality, what remains to be seen?' is a question that can, through the process of seeking an answer (experientially rather than conceptually), lead one to some discoveries about the essence of one's being-ness.. ie, the nature of the True Self. Thats more what I was getting at.

Kudos to you for being willing to take a crack at it though, Jarlaxle. :beer:

:hippy:

I certainly understand what you're getting at with not really seeing through someone's personality. Also, won't everyone come to a different conclusion on their idea of what a

true self is? How can you actually get at your true self? Wouldn't this assume that our self is always the same? I guess that would depend on your ideas of other people.

Or maybe I've been reading too much philosophy?

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Nothing wrong with reading about philosophy and world religions. It helps us to better understand where others are coming from. I realized after reading and studying for years that there are some "Universal" truths that thread their way through all world religions and faiths. I also realized that I needed to look inward for salvation and that while I was studying philosphy and faith, I was becoming stagnant. I wasn't putting any of my beliefs into action. Also, I had to be careful that I was not taking someone else's beliefs and making them my own. We should use others ideas to better understand our own personal truths, weigh them against what we think and feel. I found myself agreeing with a portion of what I read, but I could not fully agree 100 % with everything I read, who can ? I found I was wasting my time, the answers were all around me, but most importantly....IN me. So I learn something new everyday and try to do some good along the way....If you walk, you're gonna get there. I'm just a pilgrim.

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Nothing wrong with reading about philosophy and world religions. It helps us to better understand where others are coming from. I realized after reading and studying for years that there are some "Universal" truths that thread their way through all world religions and faiths. I also realized that I needed to look inward for salvation and that while I was studying philosphy and faith, I was becoming stagnant. I wasn't putting any of my beliefs into action. Also, I had to be careful that I was not taking someone else's beliefs and making them my own. We should use others ideas to better understand our own personal truths, weigh them against what we think and feel. I found myself agreeing with a portion of what I read, but I could not fully agree 100 % with everything I read, who can ? I found I was wasting my time, the answers were all around me, but most importantly....IN me. So I learn something new everyday and try to do some good along the way....If you walk, you're gonna get there. I'm just a pilgrim.

What a terrific post! :notworthy:

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