War in Ukraine

[ScarletMacaw]

I imagine you are all as horrified as I am by Russia's invasion of Ukraine. There are a few ways to help: You can contact Biden and your Senators to ask for more arms for Ukraine; they need more heavy artillery, anti-aircraft systems, and tanks and aircraft. You could also donate to help refugees; there are many organizations. I found out it's also possible to donate directly to the Ukrainian military. Time is running out. Nova Ukraine is an organization based here in Northern California and their website has a lot of info: Home | Nova Ukraine

[chillumpuffer]

This has been going on for a month at least, where have you been?. Whilst it is a humanitarian tragedy it is a dangerous game to play with a madman. He has the capability of pushing the button and nuking Europe or anyone else with the consequences nobody wishes to contemplate. Ukraine is NOT part of NATO and therefore any help given to Ukraine will be seen as an act of aggression against Russia. Maybe one of our Russian members on this site can shed any light on this (War) sorry, special operations? If they are allowed to of course.

 

[ScarletMacaw]

I was also surprised to see that no one had started a thread on this topic, so I did it. Surely you didn't mean to imply I thought the war started yesterday?? I don't visit here often anymore.

Putin needs to be stopped now precisely so that he does not continue and escalate to a nuclear war or any war with NATO. Defending a country against invasion is not an "act of aggression." We and the Ukrainians have managed to weaken Russia through sanctions and through the defense of Ukraine; now we need to continue and step up the game, so that the Russian people realize this was a grievous error, and hopefully manage to dislodge Putin one way or another. Putin has been waging a war against the US for a long time; it's a war of disinformation and division. Russia has interfered in our electoral process, stoked racial divisions in this country etc. Putin sees the West as an enemy. Also he and his cronies stole a trillion dollars from the Russian people and one theory is that this war is his attempt to shore up his popularity through stoking nationalism, to provide a distraction from the ransacking of the country by him and his oligarch pals. That  theory sounds credible to me. I'm not sure he is a madman, although he is grandiose and characterologically disturbed. 

People thought Hitler could be negotiated with. This grave mistake was based on a misreading of who Hitler was. Neville Chamberlain thought that Hitler was a politician just like him. People like Hitler and Putin are not deal-making, backslapping, vote-getting Western politicians; they are dictators. I would like to believe we have all learned from history. The way you stop a bully is to act immediately. Study not only war but acts of violence in general and this is clear. 

Were you joking when you suggested a Russian here could give us insight on this war? The Russians are only able to access information other than government propaganda if they use Tor or a VPN. Then they have to face the reality that their government is a kleptocracy as well as a police state. I wonder if it is too much emotionally for many of them and it's just easier to live in a delusion. Those that understand the truth are mostly terrified. Many have fled, to Istanbul, to Yerevan in Armenia, or elsewhere. 

 

[Badgeholder Still]

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 — Martin Niemöller

[JohnOsbourne]

No one seems to care about the humanitarian disaster in Yemen, that's far worse than what's happening in the Ukraine, and has been going on since 2014 (you know, around the same time that we helped destabilize a pro-Russian government in Kiev) with full American support.  Why is that?  Lack of non-stop media coverage and hysteria?  Did anyone care when we bombed Baghdad indiscriminately?  

Edited April 20, 2022 by JohnOsbourne

[Strider]

13 hours ago, ScarletMacaw said:

I was also surprised to see that no one had started a thread on this topic, so I did it. Surely you didn't mean to imply I thought the war started yesterday?? I don't visit here often anymore.

 

The mods put a ban on political and religious topics. Like it or not, war is a political topic. 

There are plenty of outlets online if you want to talk about the war. I don't come here to be reminded of mankind's inhumanity.

[ScarletMacaw]

4 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

No one seems to care about the humanitarian disaster in Yemen, that's far worse than what's happening in the Ukraine, and has been going on since 2014 (you know, around the same time that we helped destabilize a pro-Russian government in Kiev) with full American support.  Why is that?  Lack of non-stop media coverage and hysteria?  Did anyone care when we bombed Baghdad indiscriminately?  

I was one of hundreds of thousands of people who protested the war in Iraq before it began, so to answer your question "did anyone care when we bombed Baghdad." Don't you remember that, or are you under 25? 

[ScarletMacaw]

1 hour ago, Strider said:

The mods put a ban on political and religious topics. Like it or not, war is a political topic. 

There are plenty of outlets online if you want to talk about the war. I don't come here to be reminded of mankind's inhumanity.

I'm afraid mankind's inhumanity will affect you whether you are reminded of it on a message board or not. 

[SteveAJones]

Ukraine is not a country so much as it is a slush fund. 10% to the Big Guy. 🤡

[ScarletMacaw]

4 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Ukraine is not a country so much as it is a slush fund. 10% to the Big Guy. 🤡

Ukraine is very definitely a country.

If you are going to make an accusation, you had better have some facts to back it up. 

[Bong-Man]

I think any diplomat who meets Putin for the first time in person should look down at him and say, "I thought you'd be bigger".

I don't see how any of this plays out well.  Sanctions aside, over time war is a huge economic drain for any country. Even if Russia wins, they still lose.  They managed to make NATO relevant again, and every kind of alternative energy more attractive.  They're also going to be left with a very unfriendly Western border, a country to rebuild, and lots of angry and bitter people that aren't going to cooperate any more than they are now.  They'll lose by winning.  If they actually lose or withdraw, that might be the worst scenario of all as far as what happens next.

With over 200 nuclear capable submarines floating around, I also don't understand why talk of further nuclear missile deployment in Europe is even relevant.  Nothing but posturing.  If a limited small nuke is launched, this requires a small tit-for-tat response?  Don't think so.

Anything related to chemical weapons, neo-nazis, biological labs, rape, torture, I take with a proverbial grain of salt.  Lots of claims, bullshit, and propaganda whenever people are at war.  Not saying none of that is happening, I just don't trust what you're telling me.  Kind of like covid studies from, "The Committee to Unleash Prosperity".      

                

[Bong-Man]

11 hours ago, Strider said:

The mods put a ban on political and religious topics. Like it or not, war is a political topic. 

There are plenty of outlets online if you want to talk about the war. I don't come here to be reminded of mankind's inhumanity.

The banner saying such has been removed.  I can only guess that means political discussions are now fair game within reason.  Religion probably not so much.  R-E-S-P-E-C-T towards each other is the key to good discussion and debate.  Also keeping such discussions on the proper thread for those not wishing to participate, which is totally understandable.  Not trying to play moderator, just trying to navigate what seems to be a little more leeway as to what's deemed acceptable here.  If I'm interpreting this wrong, feel free to slap me silly.  

[ScarletMacaw]

I agree with Bong Man for once, we are not going to see a neat conclusion to this anytime soon.

The US and NATO should have realized that there inevitably would be a conflict with Russia and we should have been better prepared. After the fall of the Soviet Union we were obsessed with nuclear non-proliferation because we were terrified a terrorist group would get hold of a nuclear weapon. Like that was the worst thing that could happen! We somehow thought that without "communism" the Soviet Union would become a Western-style democracy, with fair elections and politicians who had to win votes. We thought the people would become interested in consumerism and would want good relations with the West. But Russia has never had a democratic government and the Russian people have been ruled by despots of one type or another for 1,000 years. They don't understand our type of government because they have never had it. They think a strongman in power is the only way to have strength. They have developed a kind of national Stockholm Syndrome. 

[JohnOsbourne]

18 hours ago, ScarletMacaw said:

I was one of hundreds of thousands of people who protested the war in Iraq before it began, so to answer your question "did anyone care when we bombed Baghdad." Don't you remember that, or are you under 25? 

Yeah, I passed 25 a long time ago.  I do remember that the American media's execrable cheer-leading for our unjustified war against Iraq was very bad, but it does not even remotely come close to the foaming-at-the-mouth hysteria that they're showing now.  What gives?

Anyway, have you protested Saudi Arabia's horrific war against civilians in Yemen, with our full support?  It's still on-going, you know.

[JohnOsbourne]

13 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Ukraine is not a country so much as it is a slush fund. 10% to the Big Guy. 🤡

Exactly, it's part Poland, part Russia, a bit of Slovakia, and 100% a Deep State money-laundering operation.

[redrum]

1 hour ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Exactly, it's part Poland, part Russia, a bit of Slovakia, and 100% a Deep State money-laundering operation.

I refuse to send money to any disaster area, mainly due to the corruption. 

 

[cryingbluerain]

11 hours ago, Bong-Man said:

 If they actually lose or withdraw, that might be the worst scenario of all as far as what happens next.        

Yep, a wounded animal is the most dangerous as the saying goes.  What's also concerning is what our current CIC who is seen as weak by everyone (Afghanistan disaster) might do to bolster his tanking approval ratings.  One Dem senator recently suggested American troop involvement might be necessary.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/coons-says-putin-will-only-stop-when-we-stop-him-when-pressed-on-us-troops/ar-AAWjzzL?ocid=EMMX&cvid=88e1f8bbef264e12999f7d219e7a2843

[ScarletMacaw]

3 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Yeah, I passed 25 a long time ago.  I do remember that the American media's execrable cheer-leading for our unjustified war against Iraq was very bad, but it does not even remotely come close to the foaming-at-the-mouth hysteria that they're showing now.  What gives?

Anyway, have you protested Saudi Arabia's horrific war against civilians in Yemen, with our full support?  It's still on-going, you know.

There are plenty of Americans, who I understand you have not met in person, who have been disturbed by our relationship with Saudi Arabia for a long time. I believe it will change. 

[ScarletMacaw]

3 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Exactly, it's part Poland, part Russia, a bit of Slovakia, and 100% a Deep State money-laundering operation.

This is an absurd conspiracy theory. But since you are from MORDOR, it's unlikely you actually believe this; more likely that you are doing your boss's bidding to come here and be a troll for MORDOR. 

[ScarletMacaw]

There are hundreds of journalists from all over the world in Ukraine, plus satellite images, so there is no doubt what is going on there. I know the Russians here do not want to believe it, because facing the truth is too painful for them. 

The word "atrocity" is not a legal term. But there is no doubt war crimes have occurred in Ukraine.  People do not chop off their own legs in order to contribute to "propaganda." They don't bomb their own houses. They don't beat themselves to make bruises all over their bodies and they don't tie their hands behind their backs and shoot themselves in the head. 

The main issue though is that Russia launched an unprovoked invasion of another country. In addition to this being a "wag-the-dog" operation to distract from the kleptocracy going on in Russia, a democracy on Russia's border also threatens the kleptocracy/autocracy because it could give ordinary Russians ideas. And of course democracy anywhere is threatening to the other autocracies such as China...

[rm2551]

21 hours ago, Bong-Man said:

If a limited small nuke is launched, this requires a small tit-for-tat response?  Don't think so.

It requires a response - otherwise, he won't stop. That is the sad undeniable reality of that cunt being in charge of Russia. A retaliatory "limited" nuke as a response? I wouldn't expect, but I also wouldn't write off as legitimate and rational a response. Putin cannot be the sole parameter defining force in this.

21 hours ago, Bong-Man said:

Kind of like covid studies from, "The Committee to Unleash Prosperity".

Outstanding.

[chillumpuffer]

11 hours ago, ScarletMacaw said:

This is an absurd conspiracy theory. But since you are from MORDOR, it's unlikely you actually believe this; more likely that you are doing your boss's bidding to come here and be a troll for MORDOR. 

Don't worry about the troll. He's always sticking his beak in just to get a response. He can't help himself. I'm surprised he hasn't been banned (again). You only have to peruse the "Covid" thread to find him on top form.

[JohnOsbourne]

20 hours ago, ScarletMacaw said:

There are plenty of Americans, who I understand you have not met in person, who have been disturbed by our relationship with Saudi Arabia for a long time. I believe it will change. 

Well, this is where things get interesting, isn't it?  The Saudis are willing to consider pricing oil in yuan, meaning the end of the petrodollar system on which American power is based.  Buckle up, it could get very bumpy.

[JohnOsbourne]

8 hours ago, chillumpuffer said:

Don't worry about the troll. He's always sticking his beak in just to get a response. He can't help himself. I'm surprised he hasn't been banned (again). You only have to peruse the "Covid" thread to find him on top form.

Hey, thanks!

[JohnOsbourne]

20 hours ago, ScarletMacaw said:

This is an absurd conspiracy theory. But since you are from MORDOR, it's unlikely you actually believe this; more likely that you are doing your boss's bidding to come here and be a troll for MORDOR. 

Actually it's the American Empire that is the modern-day Mordor.  Or, Sodom-on-the-Hudson, if you prefer.  BTW, what do you think of those Azov boys in the Ukraine?  (At least, the ones who are still alive.)