War in Ukraine

[ScarletMacaw]

The way this must end is: 1. Decisive military defeat of Russia. This will only happen if the U.S. continues to supply weapons. 2. Putin removed. Hopefully with a decisive military defeat, his circle will decide they've had enough. We should ignore the nuclear threats. I find it hard to believe the Russian military would allow anyone to push the button, because presumably they want to live. I know some are advocating that we allow Putin to emigrate. I suppose if that's necessary, we have to do it. Then maybe someone can find a way to murder him. 

As I said, our politicians need to know the people are behind them. I have written and called to my Senators' offices and written to the White House. We should have sent weapons faster, but better late than never. 

[JohnOsbourne]

6 minutes ago, ScarletMacaw said:

The way this must end is: 1. Decisive military defeat of Russia. This will only happen if the U.S. continues to supply weapons. 2. Putin removed. Hopefully with a decisive military defeat, his circle will decide they've had enough. We should ignore the nuclear threats. I find it hard to believe the Russian military would allow anyone to push the button, because presumably they want to live. I know some are advocating that we allow Putin to emigrate. I suppose if that's necessary, we have to do it. Then maybe someone can find a way to murder him. 

As I said, our politicians need to know the people are behind them. I have written and called to my Senators' offices and written to the White House. We should have sent weapons faster, but better late than never. 

I hate to break it to you, but when the Donbas cauldron is destroyed in a few weeks, the war will be over and Russia will achieve pretty much all of it's objectives.  The only interesting thing will be seeing what the American media does, since it's been laughably claiming from the start that Ukraine is winning (despite the fact that from day 1 they've told civilians to go on suicide missions against tanks, sounds like a great strategy).  

But there's a much bigger problem here.  You claim to have vocally protested and opposed the Iraq war (good for you), but you're willing to risk nuclear war over the Ukraine?  Good God, are you serious?  I'm sorry, but you are insane.

Edited April 22, 2022 by JohnOsbourne

[JohnOsbourne]

Money well spent:

White House has 'Almost Zero' Ability to Track Weapons It Sends to Ukraine | The Libertarian Institute

Funny how former peaceniks are some of the biggest cheerleaders for the MIC and the very sleaziest aspects of crony capitalism.

[JohnOsbourne]

[redrum]

1 hour ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Money well spent:

White House has 'Almost Zero' Ability to Track Weapons It Sends to Ukraine | The Libertarian Institute

Funny how former peaceniks are some of the biggest cheerleaders for the MIC and the very sleaziest aspects of crony capitalism.

They probably ended up in Afghanistan. 

[Strider]

On 4/20/2022 at 8:38 AM, Bong-Man said:

The banner saying such has been removed.  I can only guess that means political discussions are now fair game within reason.  Religion probably not so much.  R-E-S-P-E-C-T towards each other is the key to good discussion and debate.  Also keeping such discussions on the proper thread for those not wishing to participate, which is totally understandable.  Not trying to play moderator, just trying to navigate what seems to be a little more leeway as to what's deemed acceptable here.  If I'm interpreting this wrong, feel free to slap me silly.  

I did not notice that until you mentioned it. Still not jumping in.

[ScarletMacaw]

The Ukrainian defense minister has an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal that I thought was interesting: 

 

Oleksii Reznikov

April 21, 2022 1:07 pm ET

Kyiv, Ukraine

The world was horrified by the mass killing of innocent civilians in Bucha. Russian soldiers violated all existing rules and laws of war, raping children and torturing women and men, shooting them execution style. Similar crimes were committed in Kharkiv, Mariupol, Chernihiv and in Kramatorsk, where Russian forces fired a Tochka-U ballistic missile on a railway station filled with 4,000 civilians, mostly women and children.

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Among the casualties of Russia’s war on Ukraine has been the postwar system of global order and security. Russia has done everything that the international security institutions were created to prevent. How can the United Nations Security Council, on which Moscow has a permanent seat, live up to its mission to maintain peace? What kind of security and cooperation is possible on the Continent when one participating state of the Organization for Cooperation and Security in Europe has attacked another and killed thousands of civilians? These organizations have failed. Like the League of Nations before them, they must be replaced by a new and more effective set of international institutions capable of serving the interests of all countries, not only those of the great powers.

The architecture of this new system should be based on Ukraine’s experience. In 1994 we gave up the world’s third-largest nuclear arsenal, hoping that the signatures of world leaders on a document meant something. But in April 2008, Germany and France blocked Ukraine’s accession to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. The Kremlin got the message. In August 2008 Russia invaded Georgia and the world turned a blind eye. In 2014 Russia attacked Ukraine and the world decided not to intervene. Now Russian bombs are erasing our cities from the earth and the world has been unable to stop it.

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All this could have been prevented. Had the West imposed preventive sanctions on Russia and provided Kyiv with a sufficient number of defensive weapons—primarily air and missile defense systems—tens of thousands of Ukrainians would still be alive today.

The Western response to the invasion has been too slow. As President Volodymyr Zelensky has said, the global response to a crisis of this sort should be immediate, within 24 hours, not after weeks or months. Any aggressor must face irreversible punishment through a mechanism of preventive measures—so called deferred sanctions that can be approved in peacetime and take effect automatically.

Russia’s aggression against Ukraine has created almost four million refugees. We are on the brink of a global food crisis that could destabilize Africa and the Middle East. Until Russia is stopped, the crisis will only grow, pulling in neighbors and contributing to the collapse of economies.

We always hear the echoes of the past in the present. I’ve never liked traitors or cockroaches. Even when I was a child, both filled me with disgust. Eventually I came to terms with cockroaches and no longer take offense at their existence, but my feelings for traitors haven’t changed. This is the core of who I am, and of many people around me these days. You can’t go back on your word. You can’t run when your country needs you. You can’t betray your friends.

I make dozens of calls every day, communicating with friends and colleagues from different countries. I really want to believe that everyone I speak with has values that they won’t betray under any circumstances. If you consider friendship one of those values, and you consider yourself a friend of Ukraine, please realize that time is running out. We need your help, and we need it now.

Primarily we need heavy weapons to defend and liberate Russian-occupied territories. I know that these weapons can be sourced quickly from different countries. All that’s needed is the will to do so. If you give us these weapons, you will show the world that you are not afraid to confront evil. We also need a total global embargo on Russian oil and gas. We need real sanctions against Russia’s banking system and trade.

If you give us all this, Russian invaders will be gone from Ukraine in a few months. If you don’t, the war will drag on, and the terrorist state of the Russian Federation will destroy the reputations of global leaders and encourage other rogues to test their strength. The flames of the war can spread to other countries at any moment because Vladimir Putin won’t stop in Ukraine.

A Ukrainian victory is the only outcome that will force Russia to rethink its strategy of aggression. We can do it. We have already proved our bravery. We just need the tools. Once the job is done we can get down to the important business of building a new world security architecture free from the structural defects of the past.

[rm2551]

 

[redrum]

The world was horrified by the mass killing of innocent civilians in Bucha. Russian soldiers violated all existing rules and laws of war, raping children and torturing women and men, shooting them execution style. Similar crimes were committed in Kharkiv, Mariupol, Chernihiv and in Kramatorsk. 

Sounds like 1960 Cuba. 

[JohnOsbourne]

35 minutes ago, redrum said:

The world was horrified by the mass killing of innocent civilians in Bucha. Russian soldiers violated all existing rules and laws of war, raping children and torturing women and men, shooting them execution style. Similar crimes were committed in Kharkiv, Mariupol, Chernihiv and in Kramatorsk. 

Sounds like 1960 Cuba. 

Except, the Russians probably did not do this.  The Ukrainians re-occupied the town for three days without saying anything about dead bodies lying in the street.  Perhaps recognizing this problem, the NYT was fed "satellite imagery" that purported to show dead bodies there for three weeks, which is absurd because they would have bloated and been eaten by animals by then, so I'm not sure why  this was thought to be a better tack.  I'm not the only skeptic:  Zelensky complained that an EU leader raised some doubts about this to him.  (It was probably Macron, who despite being a bankster and legit weirdo is at least trying to play good cop since the continent has an interest in ending this thing, unlike the Americans and British.)  And the attack on the train station at Kramatorsk was carried out by a missile not in the Russian arsenal and fired from a position in Ukrainian-held territory.  Not to mention it killed ethnic Russian refugees.  Which is probably why that story was dropped by the MSM even quicker than Bucha.  

I don't doubt that Russian soldiers have committed war crimes, since that happens in every war.  But the Ukrainian black propaganda here is pretty blatant.  BTW, the neo-Nazis in the Azov Battalion have filmed themselves killing hostages.  But I guess that's ok with some people because they share our "democratic values"?

[JohnOsbourne]

22 hours ago, redrum said:

They probably ended up in Afghanistan. 

Yes, Middle East terrorists or Mexican cartels.  The MIC's pockets will be lined either way.  Profitable to the last Ukrainian.

[ScarletMacaw]

2 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Except, the Russians probably did not do this.  The Ukrainians re-occupied the town for three days without saying anything about dead bodies lying in the street.  Perhaps recognizing this problem, the NYT was fed "satellite imagery" that purported to show dead bodies there for three weeks, which is absurd because they would have bloated and been eaten by animals by then, so I'm not sure why  this was thought to be a better tack.  I'm not the only skeptic:  Zelensky complained that an EU leader raised some doubts about this to him.  (It was probably Macron, who despite being a bankster and legit weirdo is at least trying to play good cop since the continent has an interest in ending this thing, unlike the Americans and British.)  And the attack on the train station at Kramatorsk was carried out by a missile not in the Russian arsenal and fired from a position in Ukrainian-held territory.  Not to mention it killed ethnic Russian refugees.  Which is probably why that story was dropped by the MSM even quicker than Bucha.  

I don't doubt that Russian soldiers have committed war crimes, since that happens in every war.  But the Ukrainian black propaganda here is pretty blatant.  BTW, the neo-Nazis in the Azov Battalion have filmed themselves killing hostages.  But I guess that's ok with some people because they share our "democratic values"?

Not one single thing you say here is true. Do you really think satellite imagery could be faked and fed to a major news organization? How do you know the bodies weren't bloated? What animals would have eaten them, the pet dogs run wild? Squirrels? This was a town, not a wildlife preserve. How do you know what's in the Russian arsenal or where it was fired from? The Russians have missiles that can cross continents; this isn't World War I. The people killed may have been ethnically "Russian" but they were Ukrainian citizens. Where is this footage of the Azov Battalion killing hostages? Perhaps you could post that too, along with your scientific evidence of faked satellite imagery. 

[JohnOsbourne]

9 hours ago, ScarletMacaw said:

Not one single thing you say here is true. Do you really think satellite imagery could be faked and fed to a major news organization? How do you know the bodies weren't bloated? What animals would have eaten them, the pet dogs run wild? Squirrels? This was a town, not a wildlife preserve. How do you know what's in the Russian arsenal or where it was fired from? The Russians have missiles that can cross continents; this isn't World War I. The people killed may have been ethnically "Russian" but they were Ukrainian citizens. Where is this footage of the Azov Battalion killing hostages? Perhaps you could post that too, along with your scientific evidence of faked satellite imagery. 

I didn't say the NYT faked the satellite imagery, I said it was given to them, and the MSM has admitted that they are serving as mouthpieces for the Pentagon here (whom I trust you would grant is fully capable of any kind of fakery):

The U.S. is using declassified intel to fight an info war with Russia, even when the intel isn't rock solid (nbcnews.com)

It's not a wildlife preserve, but animals will encroach upon the area, certainly stray dogs.  The point is, no one said anything about dead bodies lying around execution-style until three days after the Ukrainians regained control.  And I'm not the only skeptic;  Zelensky told das Bild (a mainstream German paper) that an EU leader also raised doubts about it:

EU leader wanted proof Bucha wasn’t staged – Zelensky — RT Russia & Former Soviet Union

Zelensky initially claimed that an Iskander was used to hit the train station at Kramatorsk, but then photographs showed that it was clearly a Tochka U:

Russia claims Ukraine behind fatal missile attack — RT Russia & Former Soviet Union

If the Russians used Tochka U instead of Iskander, why wouldn't Zelensky have said this originally?  It sounds like he was lying, because he knows what the respective arsenals contain.  The missile didn't come "cross-continent", it came from Ukrainian-held territory and they've been using these kind of missiles to shell the Donbas for 8+ years, in contravention of the Minsk agreement that Zelensky's government signed.  The Ukrainian assault on the Donbas has claimed over 15K lives since then, did you protest that?  Or was it not the current thing?  The Russian-speakers in the east are Ukrainian subjects, but they clearly want to be part of Russia and not under Kiev's control.  Should they be retained by force?  Did you protest NATO's assault on Serbia (where civilian infrastructure was deliberately bombed for 70 days) to keep ethnically Albanian Kosovo from breaking away?

I notice you do not deny that Azov is a neo-Nazi group.  It's been established that they've been using human shields and hostages throughout the war:

Was bombing of Mariupol theater staged by Ukrainian Azov extremists to trigger NATO intervention? - The Grayzone

But of course this is consistent with Kiev's actions overall, since they told untrained civilians to go into action on the first day of the war.  They've cynically tried (with full US support) to increase civilian casualties from the start.

[SteveAJones]

On 4/21/2022 at 3:28 PM, JohnOsbourne said:

I hate to break it to you, but when the Donbas cauldron is destroyed in a few weeks, the war will be over and Russia will achieve pretty much all of it's objectives.  The only interesting thing will be seeing what the American media does, since it's been laughably claiming from the start that Ukraine is winning (despite the fact that from day 1 they've told civilians to go on suicide missions against tanks, sounds like a great strategy).  

This.

[rm2551]

36 minutes ago, SteveAJones said:

I hate to break it to you, but when the Donbas cauldron is destroyed in a few weeks, the war will be over and Russia will achieve pretty much all of it's objectives. 

HOW??????????????

Far out, Steve, how?

37 minutes ago, SteveAJones said:

The only interesting thing will be seeing what the American media does

Fuck me, you have to be kidding. The same as it always does. What else??? I swear Steve, I'd love to know your take on who the best interview would be. Interviewer and interviewee and why.

Cheers.

[ScarletMacaw]

RT is Russia Times, a government propaganda outlet. It is not an independent news source.

"John Osbourne" is using some classic disinformation techniques, along with some more current disinformation techniques:

One classic technique he is using is asking questions instead of supplying data. The purpose is to cast doubt in the readers' minds. He doesn't have verifiable data for his lies, but the questioning, if done enough, confuses the audience. This technique is as old as the hills. 

A second classic technique is the simple changing of the subject or diverting from the main point. In recent times this has been dubbed "whataboutism." We all know that the Azov Battalion is a far right group. This is not relevant to the fact that Russia started an unprovoked war against Ukraine. 

A more current technique that he is using is repeating catch phrases and slogans that imply the existence of vast conspiracies.  In recent times, due to economic and social stressors and technological changes, the end of the Fairness Doctrine in journalism, and the rise of demagogues empowered by modern communications technologies, a faction of the U.S. has become vulnerable to outlandish conspiracy theories. They are aware that photos and even video can be altered, so they stop trusting what they see and hear and become confused and frightened. They are then preyed upon by people with various agendas, whose message is, "You can't believe them. Therefore you should believe me." Although the majority of people do not fall for this, because they ask themselves the simple question "What's in it for him?" many fall for the conspiracy theories because they feel powerless in their lives and they want to believe that there's some sort of conspiracy of the powerful plotting against them. Some of these catch phrases include "the mainstream media" or "MSM." But who/what exactly does this refer to? The points of view of Fox News and the Guardian newspaper are quite different; are they both "the mainstream media"? The phrase "the mainstream media" is never defined. Again, the tactic is not to supply data, but to generate fear and confusion with innuendo. 

[Plant77]

14 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Except, the Russians probably did not do this.  The Ukrainians re-occupied the town for three days without saying anything about dead bodies lying in the street.  Perhaps recognizing this problem, the NYT was fed "satellite imagery" that purported to show dead bodies there for three weeks, which is absurd because they would have bloated and been eaten by animals by then, so I'm not sure why  this was thought to be a better tack.  I'm not the only skeptic:  Zelensky complained that an EU leader raised some doubts about this to him.  (It was probably Macron, who despite being a bankster and legit weirdo is at least trying to play good cop since the continent has an interest in ending this thing, unlike the Americans and British.)  And the attack on the train station at Kramatorsk was carried out by a missile not in the Russian arsenal and fired from a position in Ukrainian-held territory.  Not to mention it killed ethnic Russian refugees.  Which is probably why that story was dropped by the MSM even quicker than Bucha.  

I don't doubt that Russian soldiers have committed war crimes, since that happens in every war.  But the Ukrainian black propaganda here is pretty blatant.  BTW, the neo-Nazis in the Azov Battalion have filmed themselves killing hostages.  But I guess that's ok with some people because they share our "democratic values"?

I would be really interested to know what reputable news sources you are watching or reading. And when did the right become Russian apologists, and out right conspiracy theorists. Reading what you wrote there are several statements that are just begging to be fact checked. 

Comparing the Russian soldiers atrocities to other soldiers is just crazy. No doubt during war, there are horrific sick acts that do happen. There cannot be a more stressful time in a young persons life. However the Russians do not have any checks and balances compared to the rest of the civilized world. And their behavior not just in the conflict, in every conflict that they have been in is barbaric to say the least. That’s what happens when you have a country of soldiers that are poorly trained, poorly educated, and poorly taken care of in general. 

I would also like to say that your Russian Governments new line of that they are and have always been there for the Donbas region is just ignorant and pathetic. They tried to overthrow the government, they tried to take the capital, they just failed because they are not very good at anything other than indiscriminate bombing. It’s just funny on any of these social or political threads your outright hatred and anger of the US, and your apathy for Putin and his shit-hole country. If I did not know better I would think you were a Russian Bot. 
 

You are obviously a person with some intelligence, no question. But I can’t help but think that you are either very young and believe all the crap that you get off of some weirdo with a YouTube channel, or that you may just subscribe to RT news and that’s where you are getting your information. The Russian military is not nearly as strong as the world thought, and there have been a lot of very versed military analysts saying this for some time, they do not poses a lot of the weapons and capabilities that they have claimed, and they have been thoroughly embarrassed in this conflict. They have been getting the hell kicked out of them by a far less equipped military. But the Ukrainian military happens to be backed by the Best Military in the world, as well as they are being helped and aided by all of the best militaries in the world. There are a ton of reliable news sources that are just reporting the facts out there John. Not everything in life is a conspiracy or tool to trick the masses. This isn’t Russia. We can actually move freely and get whatever sources we want. Even the crazy Q-Anon quackery that a ton of the right now subscribes too. 
 

It’s funny how we went from a Nation that could read the NYT to a Nation of people that now call that fake news but believe a lying carnival barker, or little troll weirdo with a blog in his basement posting half truths. 

 

[Walter]

5 hours ago, ScarletMacaw said:

RT is Russia Times, a government propaganda outlet. It is not an independent news source.

"John Osbourne" is using some classic disinformation techniques, along with some more current disinformation techniques:

One classic technique he is using is asking questions instead of supplying data. The purpose is to cast doubt in the readers' minds. He doesn't have verifiable data for his lies, but the questioning, if done enough, confuses the audience. This technique is as old as the hills. 

A second classic technique is the simple changing of the subject or diverting from the main point. In recent times this has been dubbed "whataboutism." We all know that the Azov Battalion is a far right group. This is not relevant to the fact that Russia started an unprovoked war against Ukraine. 

A more current technique that he is using is repeating catch phrases and slogans that imply the existence of vast conspiracies.  In recent times, due to economic and social stressors and technological changes, the end of the Fairness Doctrine in journalism, and the rise of demagogues empowered by modern communications technologies, a faction of the U.S. has become vulnerable to outlandish conspiracy theories. They are aware that photos and even video can be altered, so they stop trusting what they see and hear and become confused and frightened. They are then preyed upon by people with various agendas, whose message is, "You can't believe them. Therefore you should believe me." Although the majority of people do not fall for this, because they ask themselves the simple question "What's in it for him?" many fall for the conspiracy theories because they feel powerless in their lives and they want to believe that there's some sort of conspiracy of the powerful plotting against them. Some of these catch phrases include "the mainstream media" or "MSM." But who/what exactly does this refer to? The points of view of Fox News and the Guardian newspaper are quite different; are they both "the mainstream media"? The phrase "the mainstream media" is never defined. Again, the tactic is not to supply data, but to generate fear and confusion with innuendo. 

Welcome back to the board where Russian sympathizers/misinformation spreading has been running wild.

[JohnOsbourne]

5 hours ago, ScarletMacaw said:

RT is Russia Times, a government propaganda outlet. It is not an independent news source.

"John Osbourne" is using some classic disinformation techniques, along with some more current disinformation techniques:

One classic technique he is using is asking questions instead of supplying data. The purpose is to cast doubt in the readers' minds. He doesn't have verifiable data for his lies, but the questioning, if done enough, confuses the audience. This technique is as old as the hills. 

A second classic technique is the simple changing of the subject or diverting from the main point. In recent times this has been dubbed "whataboutism." We all know that the Azov Battalion is a far right group. This is not relevant to the fact that Russia started an unprovoked war against Ukraine. 

A more current technique that he is using is repeating catch phrases and slogans that imply the existence of vast conspiracies.  In recent times, due to economic and social stressors and technological changes, the end of the Fairness Doctrine in journalism, and the rise of demagogues empowered by modern communications technologies, a faction of the U.S. has become vulnerable to outlandish conspiracy theories. They are aware that photos and even video can be altered, so they stop trusting what they see and hear and become confused and frightened. They are then preyed upon by people with various agendas, whose message is, "You can't believe them. Therefore you should believe me." Although the majority of people do not fall for this, because they ask themselves the simple question "What's in it for him?" many fall for the conspiracy theories because they feel powerless in their lives and they want to believe that there's some sort of conspiracy of the powerful plotting against them. Some of these catch phrases include "the mainstream media" or "MSM." But who/what exactly does this refer to? The points of view of Fox News and the Guardian newspaper are quite different; are they both "the mainstream media"? The phrase "the mainstream media" is never defined. Again, the tactic is not to supply data, but to generate fear and confusion with innuendo. 

I have posted mainstream sources (any intelligent person knows what is meant by the term "MSM") affirming that the the US government is feeding disinformation about the war.  You can choose to evaluate it, or react hysterically and go back to enjoying your manipulation.  If you don't like RT, here's the original Bild interview where Zelensky confirms that some EU heads of state recognize that Ukraine is waging an over-the-top propaganda campaign:

Ukraine: BILD interview with Zelenskiy: „Germany remains reserved and cold“ - Politik International - Bild.de

Azov (and other elements in the Ukrainian government) are not simply "far-right", they openly embrace Nazi ideology and symbolism including celebrating Ukrainian nationalists' well-known collaboration with Nazi Germany during the war with the Soviet Union.  Given that the American political establishment and media regard anyone to the right of Mitch McConnell as a "right-wing extremist" or "fascist", it's very bizarre (to say the least) that these very unsavory elements in the Ukrainian government are being white-washed.  That's a pretty good indication that the American government's interest here has little to do with democratic principles as such.

It's irrelevant if the Russian attack was "unprovoked" or not.  It is the height of intellectual dishonesty to ignore the role that American encouragement of Ukrainian NATO membership played in all of this.  There is simply no American national interest that depends on having a military alliance with the Ukraine.  The fact that the US kept pushing for this was like pouring fuel on a fire.  

[Walter]

4 hours ago, Plant77 said:

I would be really interested to know what reputable news sources you are watching or reading. And when did the right become Russian apologists, and out right conspiracy theorists. Reading what you wrote there are several statements that are just begging to be fact checked. 

Comparing the Russian soldiers atrocities to other soldiers is just crazy. No doubt during war, there are horrific sick acts that do happen. There cannot be a more stressful time in a young persons life. However the Russians do not have any checks and balances compared to the rest of the civilized world. And their behavior not just in the conflict, in every conflict that they have been in is barbaric to say the least. That’s what happens when you have a country of soldiers that are poorly trained, poorly educated, and poorly taken care of in general. 

I would also like to say that your Russian Governments new line of that they are and have always been there for the Donbas region is just ignorant and pathetic. They tried to overthrow the government, they tried to take the capital, they just failed because they are not very good at anything other than indiscriminate bombing. It’s just funny on any of these social or political threads your outright hatred and anger of the US, and your apathy for Putin and his shit-hole country. If I did not know better I would think you were a Russian Bot. 
 

You are obviously a person with some intelligence, no question. But I can’t help but think that you are either very young and believe all the crap that you get off of some weirdo with a YouTube channel, or that you may just subscribe to RT news and that’s where you are getting your information. The Russian military is not nearly as strong as the world thought, and there have been a lot of very versed military analysts saying this for some time, they do not poses a lot of the weapons and capabilities that they have claimed, and they have been thoroughly embarrassed in this conflict. They have been getting the hell kicked out of them by a far less equipped military. But the Ukrainian military happens to be backed by the Best Military in the world, as well as they are being helped and aided by all of the best militaries in the world. There are a ton of reliable news sources that are just reporting the facts out there John. Not everything in life is a conspiracy or tool to trick the masses. This isn’t Russia. We can actually move freely and get whatever sources we want. Even the crazy Q-Anon quackery that a ton of the right now subscribes too. 
 

It’s funny how we went from a Nation that could read the NYT to a Nation of people that now call that fake news but believe a lying carnival barker, or little troll weirdo with a blog in his basement posting half truths. 

 

Remember this lot represents a group that has lost the last two popular vote national elections, by millions. So to say they represent the nation is a pipe dream for them. At their best, they represent a quarter of the population. 

[JohnOsbourne]

4 hours ago, Plant77 said:

I would be really interested to know what reputable news sources you are watching or reading. And when did the right become Russian apologists, and out right conspiracy theorists. Reading what you wrote there are several statements that are just begging to be fact checked. 

Comparing the Russian soldiers atrocities to other soldiers is just crazy. No doubt during war, there are horrific sick acts that do happen. There cannot be a more stressful time in a young persons life. However the Russians do not have any checks and balances compared to the rest of the civilized world. And their behavior not just in the conflict, in every conflict that they have been in is barbaric to say the least. That’s what happens when you have a country of soldiers that are poorly trained, poorly educated, and poorly taken care of in general. 

I would also like to say that your Russian Governments new line of that they are and have always been there for the Donbas region is just ignorant and pathetic. They tried to overthrow the government, they tried to take the capital, they just failed because they are not very good at anything other than indiscriminate bombing. It’s just funny on any of these social or political threads your outright hatred and anger of the US, and your apathy for Putin and his shit-hole country. If I did not know better I would think you were a Russian Bot. 
 

You are obviously a person with some intelligence, no question. But I can’t help but think that you are either very young and believe all the crap that you get off of some weirdo with a YouTube channel, or that you may just subscribe to RT news and that’s where you are getting your information. The Russian military is not nearly as strong as the world thought, and there have been a lot of very versed military analysts saying this for some time, they do not poses a lot of the weapons and capabilities that they have claimed, and they have been thoroughly embarrassed in this conflict. They have been getting the hell kicked out of them by a far less equipped military. But the Ukrainian military happens to be backed by the Best Military in the world, as well as they are being helped and aided by all of the best militaries in the world. There are a ton of reliable news sources that are just reporting the facts out there John. Not everything in life is a conspiracy or tool to trick the masses. This isn’t Russia. We can actually move freely and get whatever sources we want. Even the crazy Q-Anon quackery that a ton of the right now subscribes too. 
 

It’s funny how we went from a Nation that could read the NYT to a Nation of people that now call that fake news but believe a lying carnival barker, or little troll weirdo with a blog in his basement posting half truths. 

 

Maybe your trusted military analysts can explain how Russian military planners could be so stupid as to think they could capture a city the size of Kiev with such a small force, if that was really their intent.  But it really doesn't change the fact that once Donbas falls, it's over.

This has nothing to do with Russian apologia.  It has do with the fact that Ukraine does not affect any legitimate American interest in any way, so it is truly insane to risk war (nuclear or otherwise) over it.

I will say, there's a very clear pattern that the same people who believed everything the US government said about covid without hesitation, are believing everything they're saying about Ukraine.

[JohnOsbourne]

[ScarletMacaw]

One of the biggest myths around this war is that somehow the West provoked it by encouraging former Soviet bloc countries to join NATO. No one forced these countries to join NATO; they ran to NATO because they were afraid of Russia! Now everyone can see why!

Another myth is that the US, or the West, or the smaller countries of the world, have no "interests" in Ukraine. Already we can see that the Russian invasion has disrupted the world food supply as well as causing unimaginable suffering to the people of Ukraine. It is causing environmental degradation and disrupted lives of school children. Russia itself is suffering, but its leaders don't care. And as I already pointed out, Russia has been engaged in a war with the US for some time, a disinformation/disruption war; they (Putin and the Russian elite) see our way of life as a threat to their domestic power. The US has every interest to crush Russian power because they are attempting to destroy us from within. 

As for the rest of the world, the Economist magazine had some good articles in the last issue. "Mr. Putin's belief in the dominance of great powers will not be limited to the battlefield...If Russia is allowed to prevail in Ukraine, bullying, lying and manipulation will further permeate trade, treaties and international law--the whole panoply of arrangements that are so easily taken for granted, but which keep the world turning....That vision may suit China, which is impatient to shape the world in its own interests...It would certainly suit tyrants, who want free rein to abuse their countries and terrorise their neighbours."

This really is a war of good v. evil. 

[JohnOsbourne]

19 minutes ago, ScarletMacaw said:

One of the biggest myths around this war is that somehow the West provoked it by encouraging former Soviet bloc countries to join NATO. No one forced these countries to join NATO; they ran to NATO because they were afraid of Russia! Now everyone can see why!

Another myth is that the US, or the West, or the smaller countries of the world, have no "interests" in Ukraine. Already we can see that the Russian invasion has disrupted the world food supply as well as causing unimaginable suffering to the people of Ukraine. It is causing environmental degradation and disrupted lives of school children. Russia itself is suffering, but its leaders don't care. And as I already pointed out, Russia has been engaged in a war with the US for some time, a disinformation/disruption war; they (Putin and the Russian elite) see our way of life as a threat to their domestic power. The US has every interest to crush Russian power because they are attempting to destroy us from within. 

As for the rest of the world, the Economist magazine had some good articles in the last issue. "Mr. Putin's belief in the dominance of great powers will not be limited to the battlefield...If Russia is allowed to prevail in Ukraine, bullying, lying and manipulation will further permeate trade, treaties and international law--the whole panoply of arrangements that are so easily taken for granted, but which keep the world turning....That vision may suit China, which is impatient to shape the world in its own interests...It would certainly suit tyrants, who want free rein to abuse their countries and terrorise their neighbours."

This really is a war of good v. evil. 

Any country can petition to join NATO, although the original reason for NATO's existence - the real threat of Soviet-led communism to western Europe - has long since passed.  Yet the arms dealers continue to make money.  Again it's funny how former peaceniks are now the biggest whores for the MIC they used to protest.  At any rate, wanting to join does not entail an obligation of the US or Western Europe to grant membership.  There is no legitimate security interest of the West that depends on a military alliance with former Soviet bloc nations.  You certainly do not provide any such rationale.  US insistence on increasing NATO membership up to Russia's border can only be viewed as a pointless provocation.  The Russians have consistently objected to all of this, and in fact been rebuffed in their own proposals to join NATO.  What do you think the US would do if China tried to push Mexico into a military alliance?

And never mind your cartoonish "good vs evil" posturing.  Remind me again when you've protested Saudi Arabia's horrific assault on Yemen.  Why don't you call for an embargo on Saudi oil for this?   Is it hypocrisy, or something else?

You must be even more removed from reality than I thought if you can't see that the massive, world-wide economic dislocations are the direct result of US imposed sanctions on Russia.  Russia is a major commodity producer, i.e. real goods vs. the parasitical financiers and big tech of the west.  (I do not claim that the Russian economy is without problems, only that they do produce goods that many countries want and need.)  These sanctions are mainly affecting the US and western Europe.  They have certainly had an effect on Russia, but perhaps you've noticed that the ruble has surpassed its pre-war value?  This notion that the US can destroy the Russian economy is simply fantasy.  

But ultimately you have an even bigger problem here.  China and India (and probably Brazil and much of the rest of the world) aren't going along with any of this.  They continue to trade with Russia.  What do you propose now?  Going to war with them as well?  Or simply creating a new Iron Curtain, only this time around the West?  You are clearly insane, but I wonder just how much.

 

[JohnOsbourne]

This is hilarious:

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