War in Ukraine

[SteveAJones]

20 hours ago, rm2551 said:

HOW??????????????

Far out, Steve, how?

Russia taking full control of the Donbas region will give Putin a territorial and ideological accomplishment so significant he could declare victory and halt the war. Inevitably, Russia would annex it just as they annexed Crimea. On the other hand, if Putin decides to continue the war, Ukraine will be waging it without what is its industrial heartland.

Edited April 24, 2022 by SteveAJones

[SteveAJones]

13 hours ago, Walter said:

Remember this lot represents a group that has lost the last two popular vote national elections, by millions. So to say they represent the nation is a pipe dream for them. At their best, they represent a quarter of the population. 

Remember if you remove CA & NY from the popular vote Trump easily wins both elections by a landslide margin. Fortunately, CA & NY do not represent the nation though efforts to abolish the electoral college are a direct attempt to ensure that they do.

[SteveAJones]

20 hours ago, rm2551 said:

I swear Steve, I'd love to know your take on who the best interview would be. Interviewer and interviewee and why.

Joe Rogan & Vladimir Putin. Rogan is a superb interviewer who does not accept his guest's answers at face value, he deep dives into them instead. Watching Putin respond to Rogan's questioning would be like matching two masters at chess playing chess.

[Bong-Man]

1 hour ago, SteveAJones said:

Remember if you remove CA & NY from the popular vote Trump easily wins both elections by a landslide margin. Fortunately, CA & NY do not represent the nation though efforts to abolish the electoral college are a direct attempt to ensure that they do.

LOL, how convenient!  In other words, if we eliminate a 1/6 of the U.S. population and the two States responsible for almost a 1/4 of the U.S.s' economic activity, my candidate would have won!  That's some conservative clarity right there.  Maybe Mark Meadows registering to vote in a few more States could help your cause.  

[JohnOsbourne]

"Democracy" seems to mean to many people:  two wolves and a lamb arguing over what's for dinner.

[ScarletMacaw]

12 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

  There is no legitimate security interest of the West that depends on a military alliance with former Soviet bloc nations.  

And never mind your cartoonish "good vs evil" posturing.  Remind me again when you've protested Saudi Arabia's horrific assault on Yemen.  Why don't you call for an embargo on Saudi oil for this?   Is it hypocrisy, or something else?

You must be even more removed from reality than I thought if you can't see that the massive, world-wide economic dislocations are the direct result of US imposed sanctions on Russia.  This notion that the US can destroy the Russian economy is simply fantasy.  

But ultimately you have an even bigger problem here.  China and India (and probably Brazil and much of the rest of the world) aren't going along with any of this.  They continue to trade with Russia.  What do you propose now?  Going to war with them as well?  Or simply creating a new Iron Curtain, only this time around the West?  You are clearly insane, but I wonder just how much.

 

1. We now see that there IS a legitimate security interest of the West in NATO, which by the way is more than "a military alliance with former Soviet bloc nations." It started with our traditional allies of Britain and France. So in your view, because NATO expands, Russia has to devastate the nation of Ukraine, killing tens of thousands, wiping out hundreds of billions of dollars in real estate, causing vast environmental degradation, displacing millions, disrupting the world food supply, etc.? How about diplomacy? Oh wait... it's difficult to negotiate with an actor that is also trying to undermine your country by planting disinformation and meddling in our elections. Negotiations have to be based on trust. Sadly Russia, or rather Putin, has shown himself to be untrustworthy and invested in destroying democracy wherever he can. 

2. As for your whataboutism regarding Saudi Arabia, I already told you that I've been opposed to the US alliance with Saudi Arabia for years. I write to my representatives regularly. I would ask you when YOU have protested Saudi Arabia's assault on Yemen, but then you aren't living in a country that has democracy, so it wouldn't be possible for you to do any advocacy that might upset the powers that rule you. I'd like to know however what type of protests you engage in. Probably none, because they would land you in jail. 

3. Huh? The sanctions were because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. I do agree that the West won't be able to destroy the Russian economy. I didn't advocate for that. I advocated that we crush their military. 

4. But you are only proving my point. Autocracy and repression are on the rise around the world. I believe the most important step to ending this is for Western countries to become more self sufficient. We made a disastrous error in welcoming China into the WTO. Instead of liberalizing China, China became more totalitarian as it became richer. But China is dependent on the West to buy their merchandise and to provide cheap labor. The US needs to reconfigure our economy and bring manufacturing home. Europe needs to become energy self-sufficient. These are the long term solutions to the growing totalitarianism around the world. We need to trade with smaller countries and help them develop their democracies. They are afraid that the West is in decline (which is part of Russia and China's propaganda). That actually isn't true. China has huge debt problems and depends on other countries for food. Russia has two major exports, grain and fossil fuels. The US is still stronger than both of them. Our problem is our fractious partisan politics. 

I can see that you are now resorting to the last resort of the troll, name-calling. 

[JohnOsbourne]

21 minutes ago, ScarletMacaw said:

1. We now see that there IS a legitimate security interest of the West in NATO, which by the way is more than "a military alliance with former Soviet bloc nations." It started with our traditional allies of Britain and France. So in your view, because NATO expands, Russia has to devastate the nation of Ukraine, killing tens of thousands, wiping out hundreds of billions of dollars in real estate, causing vast environmental degradation, displacing millions, disrupting the world food supply, etc.? How about diplomacy? Oh wait... it's difficult to negotiate with an actor that is also trying to undermine your country by planting disinformation and meddling in our elections. Negotiations have to be based on trust. Sadly Russia, or rather Putin, has shown himself to be untrustworthy and invested in destroying democracy wherever he can. 

2. As for your whataboutism regarding Saudi Arabia, I already told you that I've been opposed to the US alliance with Saudi Arabia for years. I write to my representatives regularly. I would ask you when YOU have protested Saudi Arabia's assault on Yemen, but then you aren't living in a country that has democracy, so it wouldn't be possible for you to do any advocacy that might upset the powers that rule you. I'd like to know however what type of protests you engage in. Probably none, because they would land you in jail. 

3. Huh? The sanctions were because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. I do agree that the West won't be able to destroy the Russian economy. I didn't advocate for that. I advocated that we crush their military. 

4. But you are only proving my point. Autocracy and repression are on the rise around the world. I believe the most important step to ending this is for Western countries to become more self sufficient. We made a disastrous error in welcoming China into the WTO. Instead of liberalizing China, China became more totalitarian as it became richer. But China is dependent on the West to buy their merchandise and to provide cheap labor. The US needs to reconfigure our economy and bring manufacturing home. Europe needs to become energy self-sufficient. These are the long term solutions to the growing totalitarianism around the world. We need to trade with smaller countries and help them develop their democracies. They are afraid that the West is in decline (which is part of Russia and China's propaganda). That actually isn't true. China has huge debt problems and depends on other countries for food. Russia has two major exports, grain and fossil fuels. The US is still stronger than both of them. Our problem is our fractious partisan politics. 

I can see that you are now resorting to the last resort of the troll, name-calling. 

First of all, I'm an American.  You seem very confused about that, but add it to the list, I suppose.  You really think I'm a Russian, because I disagree with you on this?  Jesus, you can't possibly be that closed-minded and impervious to rational thought.

You have yet to provide a single coherent reason for why America or Europe needs a military alliance with the Ukraine.  You are simply engaged in fantasy that there was no background or context to any of this.  Russia understandably views expansion of NATO up to their borders as a security threat, exactly as the US would view a Mexican-Chinese alliance as a threat.  It is not a question of whether Russia "has" to this or that, it's a question that American agitation for an alliance with Ukraine was a very bad idea that served no valid purpose and should not have been pursued.  Until you give a good reason (or any reason at all) for why NATO should have been expanding all these years (when the original reason for its existence is long gone), I can only conclude that you're in "Support the Current Thing" mode and not really thinking.

Yes, what about diplomacy?  France and Germany have an obvious interest in it and have made (tentative) motions towards it, but it's clear the US/UK (the US is by far the larger arms provider to Ukraine) want the war to drag out to the last Ukrainian:

Turkey Says Some NATO Members Want Longer Ukraine War to Hurt Russia - News From Antiwar.com

You made a vague statement about "some people" (not you) having "concerns" about our relationship with Saudi Arabia.  What you did not do is initiate an overwrought, emotional, blog post about their terrible war against civilians in Yemen (not to mention their well-known appalling human rights record), in cartoonish/faux-moralistic terms ("good vs. evil").  You've also never said anything about Kiev's shelling of civilians in the Donbas for 8 years, in violation of agreements they signed.  So, I can only conclude that you're just Supporting the Current Thing and not really serious about your principles. 

And BTW, the corruption and authoritarianism of Zelensky's government is a well-established fact, I'm not going to do your homework for you here, you should try to educate yourself.  This idea that he's some kind of "good guy" vs "Putin as Hitler" is laughable.  

You advocate crushing their military?  Always funny to see how "peaceniks" become war-mongers on the drop of a dime.  But never mind that.  Tell us, how will this be done?  The US government has already admitted they can't keep track of their weapons shipments to Ukraine, indicating that the Ukraine is still simply a slush fund/money-laundering black op for the US oligarchy.  If you seriously advocate direct US military involvement here, then you are insane, because it is dangerously crazy to push for a war that serves no valid national interest.

You clearly have no idea what it will take to reorganize the Western economies away from inter-dependence with Russia and China (to say nothing of India and Brazil).  Suffice to say that, long before this kind of painful retrenchment goes full bore, the resulting social and political instability will force Western governments to drop their support for Ukraine.  Then, it will be on to the next Current Thing.

[JohnOsbourne]

The hilarity continues:

Scott Morrison says Chinese military base in Solomon Islands would be 'red line' for Australia, US - ABC News

[3hrsoflunacy]

Interesting thread in regards to people's point of view.

 

1. Ukraine is a severely corrupt nation in which the US (and several top politicians) have a vested interest. Just as I would like the names from Ghislane Maxwell (I may have spelled that wrong) I want the proof from Putin regarding bio labs (which have been confirmed) and the US's involvement. Put it out there and let the chips fall where they may.

2. I am tired of the administration blaming inflation, and gas prices on Putin. Russian crude oil and petroleum product exports to the U.S. represent 8 percent of all its imported oil and less than 2 percent of the U.S. supply, an NBC News analysis of U.S. and European oil data found. Gas prices and inflation were on the rise before Putin invaded, unfortunately this administration is clueless, which is evidenced by the incomprehensible answers given by POTUS and the VP.

1 hour ago, ScarletMacaw said:

Europe needs to become energy self-sufficient.

You forgot to add the US needs to become energy self-sufficient.

 

1 hour ago, ScarletMacaw said:

it's difficult to negotiate with an actor that is also trying to undermine your country by planting disinformation and meddling in our elections.

We have enough problems with the likes of Mark Zuckerberg, our own media, and politicians planting disinformation and meddling in our elections. We do not have safe and secure elections, and I applaud the states that have taken steps to help secure them. Nationwide voter ID would be a good start.

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by 3hrsoflunacy

[3hrsoflunacy]

1 hour ago, ScarletMacaw said:

Autocracy and repression are on the rise around the world.

Especially here in California. We have a do as I say, not as I do governor who seems more intent to give children rights over their parents, and illegal aliens rights over citizens.

[redrum]

2 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

The hilarity continues:

Scott Morrison says Chinese military base in Solomon Islands would be 'red line' for Australia, US - ABC News

Time to send the Marines back to Guadalcanal. 

[SteveAJones]

7 hours ago, Bong-Man said:

LOL, how convenient!  In other words, if we eliminate a 1/6 of the U.S. population and the two States responsible for almost a 1/4 of the U.S.s' economic activity, my candidate would have won!  That's some conservative clarity right there.  Maybe Mark Meadows registering to vote in a few more States could help your cause.  

The point is the US is a democratic republic, not a democracy.

[SteveAJones]

5 hours ago, ScarletMacaw said:

Oh wait... it's difficult to negotiate with an actor that is also trying to undermine your country by planting disinformation and meddling in our elections.

Let's leave Obama out of this.

[SteveAJones]

4 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

First of all, I'm an American.  You seem very confused about that, but add it to the list, I suppose.  You really think I'm a Russian, because I disagree with you on this?  Jesus, you can't possibly be that closed-minded and impervious to rational thought.

You have yet to provide a single coherent reason for why America or Europe needs a military alliance with the Ukraine.  You are simply engaged in fantasy that there was no background or context to any of this.  Russia understandably views expansion of NATO up to their borders as a security threat, exactly as the US would view a Mexican-Chinese alliance as a threat.  It is not a question of whether Russia "has" to this or that, it's a question that American agitation for an alliance with Ukraine was a very bad idea that served no valid purpose and should not have been pursued.  Until you give a good reason (or any reason at all) for why NATO should have been expanding all these years (when the original reason for its existence is long gone), I can only conclude that you're in "Support the Current Thing" mode and not really thinking.

Yes, what about diplomacy?  France and Germany have an obvious interest in it and have made (tentative) motions towards it, but it's clear the US/UK (the US is by far the larger arms provider to Ukraine) want the war to drag out to the last Ukrainian:

Turkey Says Some NATO Members Want Longer Ukraine War to Hurt Russia - News From Antiwar.com

You made a vague statement about "some people" (not you) having "concerns" about our relationship with Saudi Arabia.  What you did not do is initiate an overwrought, emotional, blog post about their terrible war against civilians in Yemen (not to mention their well-known appalling human rights record), in cartoonish/faux-moralistic terms ("good vs. evil").  You've also never said anything about Kiev's shelling of civilians in the Donbas for 8 years, in violation of agreements they signed.  So, I can only conclude that you're just Supporting the Current Thing and not really serious about your principles. 

And BTW, the corruption and authoritarianism of Zelensky's government is a well-established fact, I'm not going to do your homework for you here, you should try to educate yourself.  This idea that he's some kind of "good guy" vs "Putin as Hitler" is laughable.  

You advocate crushing their military?  Always funny to see how "peaceniks" become war-mongers on the drop of a dime.  But never mind that.  Tell us, how will this be done?  The US government has already admitted they can't keep track of their weapons shipments to Ukraine, indicating that the Ukraine is still simply a slush fund/money-laundering black op for the US oligarchy.  If you seriously advocate direct US military involvement here, then you are insane, because it is dangerously crazy to push for a war that serves no valid national interest.

You clearly have no idea what it will take to reorganize the Western economies away from inter-dependence with Russia and China (to say nothing of India and Brazil).  Suffice to say that, long before this kind of painful retrenchment goes full bore, the resulting social and political instability will force Western governments to drop their support for Ukraine.  Then, it will be on to the next Current Thing.

 

[JohnOsbourne]

1 hour ago, redrum said:

Time to send the Marines back to Guadalcanal. 

No, it isn't, I disagree.  It is not America's obligation to defend Australia, or police the world for that matter.  The point here is the reaction of AUKUS to this is no different than Russia's vis-a-vis Ukraine and NATO.  Except for the fact that the Solomon Islands do not border the US or Britain. 

Any long-term threat of China to the US should be handled by first getting our own house in order on a number of fronts (economically, socially, etc.), not stupid and pointless military engagements around the globe.  (Remember Afghanistan?)

[JohnOsbourne]

51 minutes ago, SteveAJones said:

The point is the US is a democratic republic, not a democracy.

Exactly.  We live under a constitutional republic/limited government, not an unlimited mass democracy.  The administrative form of changing power between different governments (elections) is categorically different from the lawful nature of the American State.  (The fact that this has all been encroached upon and severely weakened for the last 150 years or so is a different story.)

[redrum]

46 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

No, it isn't, I disagree.  It is not America's obligation to defend Australia, or police the world for that matter.  The point here is the reaction of AUKUS to this is no different than Russia's vis-a-vis Ukraine and NATO.  Except for the fact that the Solomon Islands do not border the US or Britain. 

Any long-term threat of China to the US should be handled by first getting our own house in order on a number of fronts (economically, socially, etc.), not stupid and pointless military engagements around the globe.  (Remember Afghanistan?)

Awwwwww......But I want to see the Marines taking out the Chi-Coms.

But I'm confident the Aussies can handle it. 

 

[ScarletMacaw]

Wow, the personal insults from "John Osbourne" are really piling up! Too bad he can't provide any credible sources for his numerous accusations against unnamed US officials. 

Since he's an American, I'm waiting to see the evidence that he so deeply cares about the Yemen conflict that he keeps talking about. Come to think of it, why didn't he start a thread about it? How about some photos from a protest he attended? 

[Plant77]

12 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Remember if you remove CA & NY from the popular vote Trump easily wins both elections by a landslide margin. Fortunately, CA & NY do not represent the nation though efforts to abolish the electoral college are a direct attempt to ensure that they do.

Well Steve, as you once said, “ If my Aunt had Testicles she would be my Uncle”! And we don’t represent all of America, but we represent a very large portion. And the Dakotas having more to say about our political make up then a state like California or New York is just crazy. I certainly do not agree with all of the far left crazy politics that I experience here. I also do not appreciate the far right and their Autocratic tendencies. There are some very good articles about the right and their shift towards that style of leader/leaders. As far as Cali and New York, we do provide the most money to the Federal government, and 8 of the 10 poorest states are in fact Red States that require the most welfare, and have the largest welfare recipients. Certainly what California contributes agriculturally, economically, as well as the technological contributions can’t be understated. 
 

I also have a sneaking suspicion that if it were the Dems who were able to take over based off of the electoral vote, the Republicans would have made sure that it only happened one time, let alone two times in the last two decades. Part of me wishes that the Dems would take a page out of the right playbook. All the scare tactics, all the shit they have pulled just with the voting process alone is enough to make a person crazy. Whatever I consider myself to be, or what you consider your political leanings to be really are not all that important. I do know that a majority of the country is liberal, and that they are finding it harder to understand how they are not represented that way in any of the three branches of government. Mitch has done a fantastically evil job of grabbing Supremely court seats and women and minorities will feel it for decades to come. 

[Plant77]

9 minutes ago, ScarletMacaw said:

Wow, the personal insults from "John Osbourne" are really piling up! Too bad he can't provide any credible sources for his numerous accusations against unnamed US officials. 

Since he's an American, I'm waiting to see the evidence that he so deeply cares about the Yemen conflict that he keeps talking about. Come to think of it, why didn't he start a thread about it? How about some photos from a protest he attended? 

Could be because he is busy reading a far right blog from some dude from the proud boys who happens to know far more than any of the MSM. 

[JohnOsbourne]

1 hour ago, redrum said:

Awwwwww......But I want to see the Marines taking out the Chi-Coms.

But I'm confident the Aussies can handle it. 

 

Sadly, things are a little different now (HT to Steve for posting this 2 years ago):

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by JohnOsbourne

[JohnOsbourne]

2 minutes ago, Plant77 said:

Could be because he is busy reading a far right blog from some dude from the proud boys who happens to know far more than any of the MSM. 

Here's the thing:  if you're going to be snarky, don't be dated.  Proud Boys are so 2017, you really just look lame here.

[JohnOsbourne]

18 minutes ago, ScarletMacaw said:

Wow, the personal insults from "John Osbourne" are really piling up! Too bad he can't provide any credible sources for his numerous accusations against unnamed US officials. 

Since he's an American, I'm waiting to see the evidence that he so deeply cares about the Yemen conflict that he keeps talking about. Come to think of it, why didn't he start a thread about it? How about some photos from a protest he attended? 

"Numerous accusations against unnamed US officials"?  What the fuck are you even talking about?  Do peaceniks now whore for the US government they once protested, defending their (alleged) honor?  The anti-war left became the cruise missile left under Obama, nothing's really changed, I see.

Of course, you are completely missing the point about Yemen.  You are one who kicked this thing off by braying like an animal about Ukraine, calling for the assassination of Putin, dismissing the risks of nuclear war in seeking the destruction of the Russian military, and advocating grinding economic hardship for western nations as they retrench their economies away from trade with Russia and China.  Yet, in response to an on-going humanitarian tragedy in Yemen, to say nothing of the many aggressive wars the US has launched in just the last 20 years (and the countless number of civilian deaths), all you can be bothered to do is write a letter to your senator.  Beyond pathetic.  You are a rare combination of hypocrisy and mental instability.  A perfect example of why the Founding Fathers tried to limit the ability of mass democracy to effect major social change.  

[cryingbluerain]

Things that make you go wtf?..

Does the Biden administration secretly want Putin to win? The former chess grand champion and Russian dissident Garry Kasparov has suggested that Putin is "the devil you know." The US seems naively to have considered Russia an ally to negotiate a new "nuclear deal" with Iran and as a partner for "climate change". For Russia, climate change concerns in the US means Russia can sell more oil to a country that has shut down its own gargantuan energy supply. So far, as Russia and Iran plan how to evade US sanctions on Russia and enrich themselves, America's interests appear the last concern of Russia's negotiators in the Iran nuclear talks.

There seems to be a current Washington fantasy about Russia: that Putin and Russian officials are people "you can do business with." The business has, in fact, been done: according to the New York Post, a "[US Senate] report says, Hunter Biden profited from a 'financial relationship' that he and associate Devon Archer had with Russia's richest woman, Elena Baturina, former wife of the late Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov."

The Biden administration appears to have gambled that if they were nice to Russia, Russia would be nice to them. They began their term by giving Putin the two things he wanted most. They extended the New START Treaty so that Russia could continue making tactical nuclear weapons, and they gave Putin the Nord Stream 2 pipeline to ensure that he would be able to supply Europe and Germany with natural gas in winter (while bypassing Ukraine) -- or shut the gas off. The US also allowed Russia's negotiators in the talks to revive the 2015 JCPOA "nuclear deal" with Iran in Vienna, Austria – where the US was not allowed in the same room with Iranians -- to have Russia's lead negotiator, Mikhail Ulyanov, represent the US. Not surprisingly, Ulyanov emerged from the talks saying that "Iran got much more than it expected."

Before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, US President Joe Biden hinted that if Putin were to carry out just a "minor incursion," that it might be acceptable. When the Biden administration then said it would not use its military, Putin saw it as a "green light". The administration is apparently under the illusion that, down the road, Russia will actually be helping the US with "climate change" and is presently advocating for US interests in negotiating a new "nuclear deal" with Iran. Russia is not; Russia is helping Russia -- and Iran.

Are We Letting Putin Win? :: Gatestone Institute

 

[Reggie29]

6 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

No, it isn't, I disagree.  It is not America's obligation to defend Australia, or police the world for that matter.  The point here is the reaction of AUKUS to this is no different than Russia's vis-a-vis Ukraine and NATO.  Except for the fact that the Solomon Islands do not border the US or Britain. 

Any long-term threat of China to the US should be handled by first getting our own house in order on a number of fronts (economically, socially, etc.), not stupid and pointless military engagements around the globe.  (Remember Afghanistan?)

If China does build bases in the Solomon Islands (by stealth?), it will become a big problem for both Australia and the USA. While the Solomon Islands don't border the US mainland, they are not that far from American Samoa and Hawaii and would be potential targets along with Australia and other smaller Pacific nations.

Allies protect each others interests and provide assistance in many things, like fighting fires, humanitarian aid after natural disasters, supplying munitions and equipment to Ukraine and when needed, military involvement. We don't need the USA to defend us per se, just to stand together as we have for the last century or so. Same as the UK.

Europe (NATO), is no more important than Oceania or anywhere else in the world where there are Australian and American interests, for that matter .

We have a federal election next month so it'll be interesting moving forward depending on which party wins government.

As per usual the politicians dropped the ball and Covid proved to be a distraction for the Chinese to conduct negotiations with the Solomon Islands, for economic purposes(?).