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Shu Chang

Plant was influenced by J. R. R. Tolkien?

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No Quarter has to do with the Vikings isn't it? Or some other Norse myth. But Tolkien did get some of his influences from Norse Myth.

Stairway is about a stuck up chick Robert didn't really like from what I've read. The lady who is sure everything is gold and she can get whatever she wants.

I don't know where you can get Friends as being a LOTR reference.

I've heard OTHAFA was based on one of Tolkein's songs or poems.

Kashmir was just influenced by a trip through the desert.

* Means maybe,i was pretty sure they weren't but still,Kashmir featured references to a "gentle race" and i see where you could get elves from it.NQ is a through a very cold place,i take that to mean them going over the mines.Friends i think is Frodo and Sam.STH is very possible reference to Arwen staying with Aragorn and keeping some immortality in the human race.

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* Means maybe,i was pretty sure they weren't but still,Kashmir featured references to a "gentle race" and i see where you could get elves from it.NQ is a through a very cold place,i take that to mean them going over the mines.Friends i think is Frodo and Sam.STH is very possible reference to Arwen staying with Aragorn and keeping some immortality in the human race.

I think Kashmir is just about the middle eastern people. Indians basically were the gentle race. I think that's where he was traveling to when he wrote the song. Song has nothing to do with Tolkien. It's of a completely different place then Middle Earth.

No Quarter again could have parralels with LOTR because of Tolkien taking from Norse Myth.

Nice try with Stairway but it's just not true.

It's basically about a rich girl that finds out that money isn't everything. There are parts of it that really have no meaning with the point of the song. But in the end this girl finds out that there's more to life then trying to buy everything.

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Hi all,

It should be clear,at this point that Robert: 1) read LOTR 2) and sang about such in a few songs.

Stairway? Read the letter from Gandalf to Frodo. It's when Frodo meets Strider,.....geez! :)

KB

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Its a mish mash of different influences combined to create one meaning that only Plant and the rest the band knows. Until they're ready to tell, well, I guess everyone will keep racking their brains trying to figure it out. :lol:

Edited by maven2blue

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Hi all,

That is correct. Gollum was/is a Stoor.The other two 'breeds' being Harfoots and Fallohides.

Stoors preferred flatlands and riversides.

KB

a stoor! that's it! now, i remember.... thank you so much! :thanku:

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Hi all,

Its a mish mash of different influences combined to create one meaning that only Plant and the rest the band knows. Until they're ready to tell, well, I guess everyone will keep racking their brains trying to figure it out. :lol:

True.Yet Robert once said that the song was about spiritual perfection.

LOTR:TFOTR:

Strider

"All that is gold does not glitter"

Stairway to Heaven

"All that glitters is gold"

Alessandra,your welcome! :wave:

KB

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He once had (still has?) a dog called Strider.

I would think that dog is dead now since it would be almost 280 dog years, assuming it was only 1 or 2 years old in 1970 when the song was written. He may have another dog named Strider.

Edited by NickZepp

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If you hadn't red Tolkiens' works please don't speak about this...

They were inspired by him... "Battle of Evermore", "Misty Mountain Hop", "ramble on"...

It can't be only a event!!! <_<

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I know he does actually sing about Mordor and Gollum in one song, but that's just one song. Besides, it could be that he meant it symbolic :D

in battle of evermore he also sings about ringwraiths so that must be about lord of the rings,right?

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NQ is a through a very cold place,i take that to mean them going over the mines.Friends i think is Frodo and Sam.STH is very possible reference to Arwen staying with Aragorn and keeping some immortality in the human race.

No Quarter is about any war. Give No Quarter, which means to not permit the besiegers of your village a place to stay in any quarter of your town. "Give no quarter. Ask no quarter". And get a message to the forces. They are upon us. Come back from the front and defend our homes.

Friends' lyrics don't mesh with any Tolkien tale. "Ohh, I'm tellin you now, the greatest thing you ever can do now, is give a song to someone who's blue now. It's very easy yeah".

And Arwen gave up her immortality to be with Aragorn. :beer:

Edited by Evster2012

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Hi all,

Ev!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How many biers after this? :D

No Quarter is about any war. Give No Quarter, which means to not permit the besiegers of your village a place to stay in any quarter of your town. "Give no quarter. Ask no quarter". And get a message to the forces. They are upon us. Come back from the front and defend our homes.

It also mean 'will you give me quarter?' During a fight and or a battle.You kicking the snot out of your opponent and instead of killing them,your give them quarter.As a hostage usually,... :)

Also the line:

They're wearing steel that's bright and true.

I 'see' this as a warrior wearing armour,plate or chain mail,.. ;)

___________________________________________________________

Friends' lyrics don't mesh with any Tolkien tale. "Ohh, I'm tellin you now, the greatest thing you ever can do now, is give a song to someone who's blue now. It's very easy yeah".

Samwise and Frodo? :blink: Pippin and Merry?

And Arwen gave up her immortality to be with Aragorn. :beer:

You got a love,you ain't lonely

Eowyn could have sang that to Aragorn,.... :D

But the Professor would not like ' :lol: 'ain't'

Cheers Ev! :beer:

KB

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There is a bit of mystery about Gollum, he did go to Mordor but didn't pick the Ring up from there.

He origionally stole it from his cousin Deagol, who found it in the Anduin after Isildur lost it (or it fell off) . After being banished from his village, sought refuge in the Misty Mountains. Bilbo then was lead to it after Gollum had dropped it, taking it home to the Shire. Gollum then went searching for it and was captured and taken to Mordor for questioning about the loss. It is said taht the Ring was trying to get 'home'.

That is where Sauron knew of the Shire and where the Ring was. So Gollum never found the Ring in Mordor at all. I think it's purely artist license to make the story balanced.

I also think the Tolkien Purists should ignore this part and just enjoy the song for what it was written for.

Lots of Led Zeps lyrics are with no doubt influenced by celtic mythologies and therefore there is of course a connection to LOTR - because Tolkiens work is also influenced by it. I would even go so far to say that it's Tolkiens personal and very elaborated interpretation of it.

If Robert has made an announcement in the past that LZ lyrics hadn't to do anything with LOTR than it was somehow true but it was not.

I agree with your statement simply enjoying the music (... and I am a hardcore Tolkien fan by the way...) but to be honest I don't really guess the intention of your explanation about Gollum when I try to bring it down to the statement you were refering.

When Robert wrote " ... and he crept away with her..." then "her" is like the precious thing Gollum wanted to keep for himself and had therefor dearly tried to hide from its creator. You must not forget he had already killed for. Gollum is a symbol for a wretched being having found something keeping him alive - a precious and shimmering thing that is somehow making him and for which he would die - and this is in fact a strong theme showing up in celtic mythology again and again.

In short: LZ words are full of messages of the ancient times when the earth was young. But what are you thinking of - the members of Led Zeppelin are English!

LOL

Tinkerbell

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Hi all,

Tinkerbell!Were you been lady? :D If may from one Tolkien fan to another,...

If Robert has made an announcement in the past that LZ lyrics hadn't to do anything with LOTR than it was somehow true but it was not.

Maybe,some can find it,but I remember Robert saying that after he read Tolkien he "had to move to the country." Plus, you use Mordor and Gollum in a song,well,poppycock Persy!

---------------------------------------------------------------

When Robert wrote " ... and he crept away with her..." then "her" is like the precious thing Gollum wanted to keep for himself and had therefor dearly tried to hide from its creator.

"In the darkest depths of Mordor,I met a girl so fair

And Gollum and evil one slipped away with her,her,her,yeah"

We know that we 'name' ships -her- so this is a possiblity,Tink,.... :)

You must not forget he had already killed for. Gollum is a symbol for a wretched being having found something keeping him alive - a precious and shimmering thing that is somehow making him and for which he would die - and this is in fact a strong theme showing up in celtic mythology again and again.

Yes,his cousin,Déagol.Gollum's real name is, Sméagol.

LOTR: TFOTR:

The Shadow of the Past:

(Gandalf)[...] and in the gurgling in his throat.So they called him Gollum,and cursed him, and told his to go far way,[...]

He had nothing,only as he called it "My Precious."

Yes,Tinkerbell, rings show up in a lot mythology,not just kelitc ones,..

KB(my freedom I hold dear)

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Gollum was a slimy lizard that lived in a dark cave and fed on flesh. He tried to eat Bilbo in the Lord of the Hobbit. You would know this if you read the book.

... that is awesome. :D

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Also, yes, rings do show up in many mythologies, and to be more specific as to which mythology that directly inspired Tolkien, Norse is full o' 'em. Or magical jewlery and whatnot. I think Aule's dwarves are most closely inspired by Norse mythology, particularily with their affinitey for jewels and treasure.

Plus, despite the fact that the vast majority of Tolkien's names and places were based on the several thorough languages he created (being a professor of linguistics and knowing all that crap), he took some names directly from Norse, Frodo and Gandalf (I believe) being two examples. Of course, most hobbit names were not of elvish construction (duh), and Gandalf not being elvish in origin either (it's from the humans I believe?).

I believe Plant shared a love for that sort of crap with J R R as can be seen from his segment in The Song Remains the Same. At least there are some perilels.

Also, my grammar is fucking attricious in this post, but I don't really care to use spell check.

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Hi all,

I believe Plant shared a love for that sort of crap with J R R as can be seen from his segment in The Song Remains the Same. At least there are some perilels.

What 'crap' is that?

KB(again?)

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Hmm. I probably meant the Norse crap. Then again, I watch Plant's segment, and it echos Arthurian legands (at least I think it does;) ), and I know Tolkien had a thing for that, too. Most mythologies and folklores which also centred around Britian, anyways. Or wait, was it that Tolkien thought Britain lacked in a proper set of myths and legends? Aw, crap, I just can not properly recall all my superior Tolkien knowledge of three years ago.

(As you can see, I'd rather talk about his work than Plant's disposition and use of LOTR themes in Zep's music... cuz DUH he was influenced by it, it shouldn't even be a debate, unless Percy was making up names like Mordor and just unknowingly stepping all over Tolkien's copyright...)

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Nice thread, interesting topic: Literate Zeppelin. Allow me please to cast two pennies into the discussion.

While in LZ Plant was an excellent lyricist from a different camp than the Dylans, Knopflers or Stings with their clever turns of phrase and biting lyrics. Plant had a mysterious and ethereal quality those guys lacked (not to mention he could outsing all three of them with one nut tied behind his back). Legend has it Robert used to fill notebooks with what I suppose you'd call poetry for possible inclusion in future LZ songs as lyrics. Along with Jim Morrison's poetry notebooks authored during the acid-fueled summer of '66 (not '67) I wouldn't mind being able to peruse Percy's journals of lyrical musings. I'm not trying to make our favorite lion-voiced singer sound like he's Yevtushenko or somebody, but John Paul Jones said on MTV (and I'll try to get it as word-for-word as I can remember), "Robert would bring in lyrics and if the rest of the band didn't like them we'd send him off to write more."

Forgive the long set-up but I want to establish Plant's songwriting qualifications before making my point.

My definition of influence upon an artistic pursuit may vary from yours, but like you, I can only relate from personal experience. As a writer and a musician myself I think I know what influences are, and aren't. When I hear Bonham in my drumming or see sentences I've written that read like a poor man's Truman Capote it's necessary to remind myself to stop. Those are influences that show up whether I want them to or not, they're so ingrained as to be subconscious. If I make a conscious decision however to play a reggae beat because I like The Police or write a noir story because I liked the movie Sin City then those, on the other hand, are inspirations. I'm not saying inspirations can't turn into influences because they ALL start as inspiration and evolve from there. If they stick over the course of time, they're influences. If it was merely a point in time before progressing onward, they're inspirations from the heat of the moment. I don't play reggae or write noir fiction all the time. Nor did Plant have much to sing about Middle-Earth after 1971.

Robert Plant was an accomplished wordsmith who had no need to resort to Tolkien-inspired wandering minstrel in the pastoral countryside type lyrics unless he wanted to. Ramble On and Battle of Evermore were inspired by books he read while recording LZ2 through LZ4, a timeframe of slightly less than a year and a half. That's a narrow window of time before rambling on to other interests as Plant did and LZ4 marked the end of any more overt Tolkienisms. Ramble On mentions Gollum and Mordor. Battle of Evermore (Pelenor Fields?) has Ringwraiths and Dark Lords but there are only allusions to a prince of peace (Frodo?) and a queen of light (Galadriel?) in Lord of the Rings and Avalon is not a Tolkien concept despite how much Rivendell resembles it. Misty Mountain Hop mentions Misty Mountains but that might as well be Rocky Mountains for all the impact it would have on the song, or the lyrics as poetry.

A song like Over the Hills and Far Away isn't necessarily evoked by Tolkien, it represents any bucolic paradise you could name: utopia, nirvana, heaven, etc.

Muddy Waters was an influence on Led Zeppelin. Professor John Ronald Reuel Tolkien provided occasional inspiration to Plant. But it was minimal, ephemeral.

Edited by Dirigible

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Nice thread, interesting topic: Literate Zeppelin. Allow me please to cast two pennies into the discussion.

While in LZ Plant was an excellent lyricist from a different camp than the Dylans, Knopflers or Stings with their clever turns of phrase and biting lyrics. Plant had a mysterious and ethereal quality those guys lacked (not to mention he could outsing all three of them with one nut tied behind his back). Legend has it Robert used to fill notebooks with what I suppose you'd call poetry for possible inclusion in future LZ songs as lyrics. Along with Jim Morrison's poetry notebooks authored during the acid-fueled summer of '66 (not '67) I wouldn't mind being able to peruse Percy's journals of lyrical musings. I'm not trying to make our favorite lion-voiced singer sound like he's Yevtushenko or somebody, but John Paul Jones said on MTV (and I'll try to get it as word-for-word as I can remember), "Robert would bring in lyrics and if the rest of the band didn't like them we'd send him off to write more."

Forgive the long set-up but I want to establish Plant's songwriting qualifications before making my point.

My definition of influence upon an artistic pursuit may vary from yours, but like you, I can only relate from personal experience. As a writer and a musician myself I think I know what influences are, and aren't. When I hear Bonham in my drumming or see sentences I've written that read like a poor man's Truman Capote it's necessary to remind myself to stop. Those are influences that show up whether I want them to or not, they're so ingrained as to be subconscious. If I make a conscious decision however to play a reggae beat because I like The Police or write a noir story because I liked the movie Sin City then those, on the other hand, are inspirations. I'm not saying inspirations can't turn into influences because they ALL start as inspiration and evolve from there. If they stick over the course of time, they're influences. If it was merely a point in time before progressing onward, they're inspirations from the heat of the moment. I don't play reggae or write noir fiction all the time. Nor did Plant have much to sing about Middle-Earth after 1971.

Robert Plant was an accomplished wordsmith who had no need to resort to Tolkien-inspired wandering minstrel in the pastoral countryside type lyrics unless he wanted to. Ramble On and Battle of Evermore were inspired by books he read while recording LZ2 through LZ4, a timeframe of slightly less than a year and a half. That's a narrow window of time before rambling on to other interests as Plant did and LZ4 marked the end of any more overt Tolkienisms. Ramble On mentions Gollum and Mordor. Battle of Evermore (Pelenor Fields?) has Ringwraiths and Dark Lords but there are only allusions to a prince of peace (Frodo?) and a queen of light (Galadriel?) in Lord of the Rings and Avalon is not a Tolkien concept despite how much Rivendell resembles it. Misty Mountain Hop mentions Misty Mountains but that might as well be Rocky Mountains for all the impact it would have on the song, or the lyrics as poetry.

A song like Over the Hills and Far Away isn't necessarily evoked by Tolkien, it represents any bucolic paradise you could name: utopia, nirvana, heaven, etc.

Muddy Waters was an influence on Led Zeppelin. Professor John Ronald Reuel Tolkien provided occasional inspiration to Plant. But it was minimal, ephemeral.

Nice Job eusa_clap.gif Edited by jimmy page66

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Zeppelin's moved over 150 million units off the shelf; J.R.R. Tolkien---about 100 million. Even if that was thumbtacks it's a helluva lot!

ROYALTY CHECK DAY BRUNCH IN BIRMINGHAM (by dirigible)

Tolkien: "Tell the wine steward I insist upon Cristal before stooping to drink Dom Perignon."

Plant: "I turn up my nose at Dom too, horsepiss. The Cristal for me as well, waiter."

Page: "I'd like the little blonde waitress on a serving trolley. Small side of Bernaisse sauce."

Jones: "Just water for me, thanks."

Bonzo: "Case of Bud."

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Nice thread, interesting topic: Literate Zeppelin. Allow me please to cast two pennies into the discussion.

While in LZ Plant was an excellent lyricist from a different camp than the Dylans, Knopflers or Stings with their clever turns of phrase and biting lyrics. Plant had a mysterious and ethereal quality those guys lacked (not to mention he could outsing all three of them with one nut tied behind his back). Legend has it Robert used to fill notebooks with what I suppose you'd call poetry for possible inclusion in future LZ songs as lyrics. Along with Jim Morrison's poetry notebooks authored during the acid-fueled summer of '66 (not '67) I wouldn't mind being able to peruse Percy's journals of lyrical musings. I'm not trying to make our favorite lion-voiced singer sound like he's Yevtushenko or somebody, but John Paul Jones said on MTV (and I'll try to get it as word-for-word as I can remember), "Robert would bring in lyrics and if the rest of the band didn't like them we'd send him off to write more."

Forgive the long set-up but I want to establish Plant's songwriting qualifications before making my point.

My definition of influence upon an artistic pursuit may vary from yours, but like you, I can only relate from personal experience. As a writer and a musician myself I think I know what influences are, and aren't. When I hear Bonham in my drumming or see sentences I've written that read like a poor man's Truman Capote it's necessary to remind myself to stop. Those are influences that show up whether I want them to or not, they're so ingrained as to be subconscious. If I make a conscious decision however to play a reggae beat because I like The Police or write a noir story because I liked the movie Sin City then those, on the other hand, are inspirations. I'm not saying inspirations can't turn into influences because they ALL start as inspiration and evolve from there. If they stick over the course of time, they're influences. If it was merely a point in time before progressing onward, they're inspirations from the heat of the moment. I don't play reggae or write noir fiction all the time. Nor did Plant have much to sing about Middle-Earth after 1971.

Robert Plant was an accomplished wordsmith who had no need to resort to Tolkien-inspired wandering minstrel in the pastoral countryside type lyrics unless he wanted to. Ramble On and Battle of Evermore were inspired by books he read while recording LZ2 through LZ4, a timeframe of slightly less than a year and a half. That's a narrow window of time before rambling on to other interests as Plant did and LZ4 marked the end of any more overt Tolkienisms. Ramble On mentions Gollum and Mordor. Battle of Evermore (Pelenor Fields?) has Ringwraiths and Dark Lords but there are only allusions to a prince of peace (Frodo?) and a queen of light (Galadriel?) in Lord of the Rings and Avalon is not a Tolkien concept despite how much Rivendell resembles it. Misty Mountain Hop mentions Misty Mountains but that might as well be Rocky Mountains for all the impact it would have on the song, or the lyrics as poetry.

A song like Over the Hills and Far Away isn't necessarily evoked by Tolkien, it represents any bucolic paradise you could name: utopia, nirvana, heaven, etc.

Muddy Waters was an influence on Led Zeppelin. Professor John Ronald Reuel Tolkien provided occasional inspiration to Plant. But it was minimal, ephemeral.

That was long-winded and boring, but nice vocabulary and grammar nonetheless :)

Apparently I need to go and make a Tolkien thread in Random.

(Cuz I'd rather talk about JRR than Percy... Plant is a little over-done on this website ;))

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That was long-winded and boring, but nice vocabulary and grammar nonetheless :)

Apparently I need to go and make a Tolkien thread in Random.

(Cuz I'd rather talk about JRR than Percy... Plant is a little over-done on this website ;))

The Two Towers was long-winded and boring, but nice vocabulary and grammar nonetheless. ;) If you wanna talk about Tolkien, let's talk. Any thoughts on George R.R. Martin? The recently deceased J. Rigney, Jr.?

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