Ian Smith Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 Had the album cranked last night with great headphones and Whole Lotta Love came on and maybe for the first time in 40 years I noticed the noise in the background over the main riff. Is it a cymbal? Some sort of bleed? It is off beat and I can not unhear it. I checked my book Zeppelin; All The Songs and no mention of it. Any expert here know anything about what that is? As always, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 11 minutes ago, Ian Smith said: Had the album cranked last night with great headphones and Whole Lotta Love came on and maybe for the first time in 40 years I noticed the noise in the background over the main riff. Is it a cymbal? Some sort of bleed? It is off beat and I can not unhear it. I checked my book Zeppelin; All The Songs and no mention of it. Any expert here know anything about what that is? As always, thanks. Can you give us a timestamp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted October 9, 2022 Author Share Posted October 9, 2022 24 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said: Can you give us a timestamp? Starts at the very beginning. Under Page's riff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 Ah, the "echo" in the right channel? Sounds like some reverberation from the guitar being picked up on the bass track. He's being recorded though he's not playing yet (waiting to jump in on the second bar). Why they didn't clip that out I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 I suppose it's also possible that it's Page's slide overdub track picking up the playback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted October 9, 2022 Author Share Posted October 9, 2022 9 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said: Ah, the "echo" in the right channel? Sounds like some reverberation from the guitar being picked up on the bass track. He's being recorded though he's not playing yet (waiting to jump in on the second bar). Why they didn't clip that out I don't know. In the right channel exactly. I too wonder why that was left in. Especially since it is off beat. Kinda cool I guess. Part of Zep's mystique. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 No secret that Page has a "Leave it in" approach towards production. He's literally heard saying "Nah leave it in" at the beginning of Black Country Woman regarding an airplane appearing on the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 7 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said: No secret that Page has a "Leave it in" approach towards production. He's literally heard saying "Nah leave it in" at the beginning of Black Country Woman regarding an airplane appearing on the track. I think that is Plant saying that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Strider said: I think that is Plant saying that. Whoops, correctomundo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 Regarding mixing errors and whatnot, I've always wondered what the deal is with Marino's 1994 mastering of the first album with the stereo pan being flipped. Wonder if that was a final mastering/pressing "oops". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul carruthers Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 A "leave it in" approach, like the telephone you can hear on The Ocean... 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 The vocal bleed in "Babe, I'm Going to Leave You". The cough at the beginning of "Whole Lotta Love". The tape hiss at the beginning of Led Zeppelin III. The drum pedal squeak in "Since I've Been Loving You". The intake of breath at the beginning of "Going to California". The telephone in "The Ocean". The cough at the end of "In My Time of Dying". The airplane in "Black Country Woman". The list is long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 Recently noticed a loud electrical ground hum at the beginning of Black Dog, which wasn't even removed on the deluxe version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realperson Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 8 hours ago, Strider said: The vocal bleed in "Babe, I'm Going to Leave You". The cough at the beginning of "Whole Lotta Love". The tape hiss at the beginning of Led Zeppelin III. The drum pedal squeak in "Since I've Been Loving You". The intake of breath at the beginning of "Going to California". The telephone in "The Ocean". The cough at the end of "In My Time of Dying". The airplane in "Black Country Woman". The list is long. The “stop” in “Out on the Tiles” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsj Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 7 hours ago, Realperson said: The “stop” in “Out on the Tiles” The unplugging of the guitar jack plug after a solo in ten years gone an iffy keyboard note in misty mountain hop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woz70 Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) 19 hours ago, Ian Smith said: Had the album cranked last night with great headphones and Whole Lotta Love came on and maybe for the first time in 40 years I noticed the noise in the background over the main riff. Is it a cymbal? Some sort of bleed? It is off beat and I can not unhear it. I checked my book Zeppelin; All The Songs and no mention of it. Any expert here know anything about what that is? As always, thanks. 18 hours ago, Ian Smith said: In the right channel exactly. I too wonder why that was left in. Especially since it is off beat. Kinda cool I guess. Part of Zep's mystique. Thanks It wasn't 'left in'. It was put in, quite deliberately, as part of the mixing process - it wasn't recorded on the multitrack tape. The sound is a plate reverb (literally a large plate of steel in a box with a speaker attached at one end and a mic the other - they were ridiculously expensive devices at the time). The same reverb is used on Plant's vocal throughout the song. There's quite a lot of that seemingly odd placement of effects throughout Zep's albums. The same effect happens in 'Babe I'm gonna leave you' on Zep I. Guitar one side, reverb other side. Once you've spotted it the first time, the more you'll hear it! Edited October 10, 2022 by woz70 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted October 10, 2022 Author Share Posted October 10, 2022 1 hour ago, woz70 said: It wasn't 'left in'. It was put in, quite deliberately, as part of the mixing process - it wasn't recorded on the multitrack tape. The sound is a plate reverb (literally a large plate of steel in a box with a speaker attached at one end and a mic the other - they were ridiculously expensive devices at the time). The same reverb is used on Plant's vocal throughout the song. There's quite a lot of that seemingly odd placement of effects throughout Zep's albums. The same effect happens in 'Babe I'm gonna leave you' on Zep I. Guitar one side, reverb other side. Once you've spotted it the first time, the more you'll hear it! Damn, great info, many thanks. Still can not understand why anyone would add that to a recording but I love knowing what it is. Much appreciated woz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autumn Moon Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 On 10/9/2022 at 7:41 PM, Strider said: The intake of breath at the beginning of "Going to California". It sets the mood perfectly, would be a crime to remove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woz70 Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, Ian Smith said: Damn, great info, many thanks. Still can not understand why anyone would add that to a recording but I love knowing what it is. Much appreciated woz. Recording studios are (generally) small-ish and pretty non-reverberant spaces, so if you want something to sound like it was recorded in a bigger room or space you add artifical (or sometimes natural) reverberation. Even the rooms that Zep used that had space for a great drum sound weren't particularly reverberant. It's not want you want in a studio. You won't find very many recordings at all that haven't had some sort of reverb added. Your ears are so used to hearing it, that if you ever do a recording that hasn't had some sort of reverb added you'd think it sounds really odd and 'flat'. In the late 60's/early 70's stereo recordings were becoming a lot more common, and the idea of presenting a natural 'sound-stage' was evolving - slowly. We are now really used to hearing recordings presented pretty much as you'd see a band on stage - drums, bass and vocals in the centre, guitars either side and the ambience/reverberation all around. Early stereo recordings might have the drums and bass in the right ear, guitars in the left and vocals centre - listen to Revolver/Sgt Peppers era Beatles, The first two Hendrix albums, even Zep I. Putting the reverb in just the left or right ear was another one of the choices that were made back in the day when Left, RIght or Centre were your only choices at mixdown. Edited October 10, 2022 by woz70 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woz70 Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) On 10/9/2022 at 6:06 PM, gibsonfan159 said: Regarding mixing errors and whatnot, I've always wondered what the deal is with Marino's 1994 mastering of the first album with the stereo pan being flipped. Wonder if that was a final mastering/pressing "oops". Probably because..... Stereo recording was still pretty new in '69, and the standard for L & R on a tape hadn't been set in stone. If it wasn't marked which was L & R on the tape box and Marino just stuck it on his usual machine where L & R had been standardised for well over a decade you get an inverted image..... He should have done an A/B with a vinyl copy (schoolboy error), but I think that first run of CD's was done as a knee jerk to the new format. The modus operandi would have been "slap it on one of these fangled CD things. It probably won't sell much, so do it quick and dirty so we (Warners) can make a buck or two if it does sell". (If I recall correctly, Plant had already sold his rights to the recordings at this point, so wouldn't have a got a penny until the 1990 remasters anyway). On 10/9/2022 at 6:41 PM, Strider said: The vocal bleed in "Babe, I'm Going to Leave You". Couldn't have been taken out without re-recording the whole song - It's spill into either the acoustic guitar mic (most probable) or a drum mic. Plant may have been in a vocal booth, but he was obviously really belting that particular take, before vocals were seperately re-recorded. Necessity rather than choice, I think. On 10/9/2022 at 6:41 PM, Strider said: The tape hiss at the beginning of Led Zeppelin III. Is not tape hiss. It's the sound of an echoplex feeding back - an effect that would have been added at mixdown, so deliberately put there. Not a 'leave it in'. On 10/9/2022 at 6:41 PM, Strider said: The drum pedal squeak in "Since I've Been Loving You". Not the only song to feature it, but certainly the most noticeable. Ludwig Speed King kick pedals are notorious for the squeak, and it's hard to stop them doing it - to the point that some people say 'if it squeaks, it's working properly'. More a case of 'it's simply what the pedal does, and it's hard to make it stop. Plus it's Bonzo's favourite' than a 'nah. leave it'. On 10/9/2022 at 6:41 PM, Strider said: The telephone in "The Ocean". I would guess that there are two probable sources for this - Overdubbed guitar solo, or drum mics (my choice would be this). The reason was probably someone leaving a studio door open somewhere. The reason I think it's the drum mics is this: If you listen closely to the recording the drum sound goes from really dry and close mic'ed sounding in the majority of the song, to wide and reverberant during the solo. This would have been done with a distant 'ambient' mic (distance = space/depth), further from the drums and - more importantly - possiibly in an adjacent room or corridor, maybe near the office/front desk where the phone would be. If the phone rang during the take that was 'The One', and that ambient mic was absolutely essential to the sound of the guitar solo section there would have been no way to get rid of it, without redoing the whole song..... and hoping that the next take was as good as the 'magic' one. So 'leaving it in' was more 'ah shit' than 'I wonder if people will notice and mythologise it in decades to come'. Necessity rather than choice. Same deal if it had been during the guitar solo overdub - 'That was the one!' 'But the phone....' 'But that was the one. I'm not doing it again!'..... All the other examples given are great demonstrations of a band playing live and together in a studio (or the garden) - really fun things to leave in a recording. As Autumn Moon says: 'It sets the mood perfectly, would be a crime to remove it.' Edited October 10, 2022 by woz70 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 11 hours ago, woz70 said: It was put in, quite deliberately, as part of the mixing process - it wasn't recorded on the multitrack tape. The sound is a plate reverb (literally a large plate of steel in a box with a speaker attached at one end and a mic the other - But which track is it on? The more I listen the more I think it's page's slide overdub track picking up the echo. But I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woz70 Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said: But which track is it on? The more I listen the more I think it's page's slide overdub track picking up the echo. But I could be wrong. It's not on a track. It's added deliberately (as a buss effect), at mixdown. This means that at playback (during the mix process) part of the signal is sent to a reverberation device which is then sent back to the mix (to add the reverb) and the whole lot is printed to the 'Master' tape. It's not a part of the multitrack recordings. It's categorically not the slide guitar track (I have heard each track of the multitrack recordings separately). Edited October 10, 2022 by woz70 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted October 10, 2022 Author Share Posted October 10, 2022 I am loving this discussion. Thanks to everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 So it's not an "artifact"? Interesting. That would explain why it's panned right when the guitar is left. Also I totally forgot about those multitracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted October 10, 2022 Author Share Posted October 10, 2022 37 minutes ago, woz70 said: It's not on a track. It's added deliberately (as a buss effect), at mixdown. This means that at playback (during the mix process) part of the signal is sent to a reverberation device which is then sent back to the mix (to add the reverb) and the whole lot is printed to the 'Master' tape. It's not a part of the multitrack recordings. It's categorically not the slide guitar track (I have heard each track of the multitrack recordings separately). But I gotta ask, that sound, do you as someone who clearly knows their stuff like it? Personally I wish I could unhear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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