woz70 Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 Just now, Ian Smith said: But I gotta ask, that sound, do you as someone who clearly knows their stuff like it? Personally I wish I could unhear it. Love it. It's gritty and adds space and texture to the guitar. The guitar one side, reverb the other choice makes it really 3D - especially on headphones - and gives the feel of the guitar sound almost travelling from one ear to the other. Hearing unexpected details/depth in music is a bit of a Pandora's box moment - you can't put the lid back on.... But you listened to it for 40 years and just enjoyed the texture then.... nothing has changed, except you've noticed a detail. Put it on the Hi-Fi nice and loud and let the sound wash over you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted October 10, 2022 Author Share Posted October 10, 2022 21 minutes ago, woz70 said: Love it. It's gritty and adds space and texture to the guitar. The guitar one side, reverb the other choice makes it really 3D - especially on headphones - and gives the feel of the guitar sound almost travelling from one ear to the other. Hearing unexpected details/depth in music is a bit of a Pandora's box moment - you can't put the lid back on.... But you listened to it for 40 years and just enjoyed the texture then.... nothing has changed, except you've noticed a detail. Put it on the Hi-Fi nice and loud and let the sound wash over you! Very well said my friend. I appreciate the exchanges. I will go and listen to it now with your comments in mind. Oh and I will put it on loud............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zep Hed Posted October 11, 2022 Share Posted October 11, 2022 And the ultimate "leave it in" decision must be the decision to leave in "nah leave it!" 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 On 10/9/2022 at 10:54 AM, gibsonfan159 said: Recently noticed a loud electrical ground hum at the beginning of Black Dog, which wasn't even removed on the deluxe version. That is Jimmy literally waking up the guitar army. It was purposely put at the beginning of Led Zeppelin IV, much like the effect that opens Led Zeppelin III. I don't know why you would expect something that has been part of the Led Zeppelin IV album experience for over 50 years to be removed for the remaster? I guarantee that if Jimmy had removed that guitar echoplex sound at the beginning on the remaster, you would have heard the howls of displeasure from Led Zeppelin fans from Los Angeles to Liverpool. You mention that you only recently noticed that sound that kicks off "Black Dog". That suggests that you haven't listened to Led Zeppelin IV in album form very much, and possibly are used to hearing "Black Dog" on radio or internet downloads, which frequently cut out the opening and just start the song with Plant's "Hey Hey Mama!". Another disadvantage to using the internet and radio as your primary music source instead of the actual albums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 On 10/10/2022 at 2:18 AM, jsj said: The unplugging of the guitar jack plug after a solo in ten years gone an iffy keyboard note in misty mountain hop I haven't noticed either of those. Do you have timestamps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 On 10/10/2022 at 12:12 PM, Autumn Moon said: It sets the mood perfectly, would be a crime to remove it. I agree. The audio quirks I listed add to the mystique and enjoyment of the songs. I was not suggesting that they should be removed. It is part of the charm of Led Zeppelin and what makes their records seem human and not made by machines. "Whole Lotta Love" I look at as sonic sculpture. Jimmy sculpting with sound. If you read about the recording of the song, you hear about Jimmy Page and Eddie Kramer flying around the mixing board twisting dials and knobs and levers. It is one of the great headphone songs, as woz70 noted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Strider said: That is Jimmy literally waking up the guitar army. Not what I'm talking about. There's electrical hum being picked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsj Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 3 hours ago, Strider said: I haven't noticed either of those. Do you have timestamps? No sorry. I became aware of these two examples (TYG & MMH) many years ago when someone on the old forum posted a list of these kind of quirks and I checked them out. Headphones are required for both. The unplugging of the jack in TYG is easy to hear but only if you know to listen for it. It’s either after the first or second solo. I haven’t heard it myself for many years so I may check it out at the weekend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 1 hour ago, jsj said: No sorry. I became aware of these two examples (TYG & MMH) many years ago when someone on the old forum posted a list of these kind of quirks and I checked them out. Headphones are required for both. The unplugging of the jack in TYG is easy to hear but only if you know to listen for it. It’s either after the first or second solo. I haven’t heard it myself for many years so I may check it out at the weekend Interesting, I'll take a listen today and see if I notice them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woz70 Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 (edited) On 10/9/2022 at 6:54 PM, gibsonfan159 said: Recently noticed a loud electrical ground hum at the beginning of Black Dog, which wasn't even removed on the deluxe version. Getting rid of electrical hums comes under the banner of audio restoration - not really the remit of a remaster. Getting rid/reducing that kind of artefact is also a balancing game - it's payoff between reduction and the addition of extra artefacts caused by the reduction process/algorithm. In the case of Black Dog your 'loud' is very subjective. It is noticeable, but you have to listen pretty hard for it, as it's masked by the far louder sounds around it. If you're listening to it loud enough to hear really well on headphones, you're probably going to struggle with your hearing later in life.... 😕 The mains hum at the beginning of The Battle of Evermore is far more noticeable, even for someone not listening particularly hard, and at a reasonable listening level.. Edited October 12, 2022 by woz70 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woz70 Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 On 10/10/2022 at 10:18 AM, jsj said: The unplugging of the guitar jack plug after a solo in ten years gone Took a while to find this, but it's at 4:54-4:57. Not a guitar jack being unplugged (or plugged in) in my opinion - this is a buzz/hum followed by a very quiet click. A jack being unplugged is thump or a loud click, then a buzz/hum. A jack being plugged in is a buzz/hum, then a thump or loud click. This sounds like the sort of ground loop buzz/hum you get from a plugged-in guitar when you let go of the strings, and then grab them again (grounding the guitar to you again!) ready to play. On 10/10/2022 at 10:18 AM, jsj said: an iffy keyboard note in misty mountain hop Someone will have to timestamp this one. I suspect this will turn out to be an extreme bit of nit-picking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummingbird69 Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 1 hour ago, woz70 said: Took a while to find this, but it's at 4:54-4:57. Not a guitar jack being unplugged (or plugged in) in my opinion - this is a buzz/hum followed by a very quiet click. A jack being unplugged is thump or a loud click, then a buzz/hum. A jack being plugged in is a buzz/hum, then a thump or loud click. This sounds like the sort of ground loop buzz/hum you get from a plugged-in guitar when you let go of the strings, and then grab them again (grounding the guitar to you again!) ready to play. Here is the evidence of the sound. You can see it clearly in the spectral view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 11 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said: Not what I'm talking about. There's electrical hum being picked up. Can you give me a timestamp? Is it during the spoken verse part? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, woz70 said: Took a while to find this, but it's at 4:54-4:57. Not a guitar jack being unplugged (or plugged in) in my opinion - this is a buzz/hum followed by a very quiet click. A jack being unplugged is thump or a loud click, then a buzz/hum. A jack being plugged in is a buzz/hum, then a thump or loud click. This sounds like the sort of ground loop buzz/hum you get from a plugged-in guitar when you let go of the strings, and then grab them again (grounding the guitar to you again!) ready to play. Thanks, man. I will have to check this out when I get home tonight. It has been a long time since I have listened to any of the studio albums on headphones, which I assume is the only way one can hear these quirks. I generally have the albums on at work, which, with the noise from the customers and the outside street noise, makes it nearly impossible to hear anything buried deep in the mix. Edited October 12, 2022 by Strider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autumn Moon Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 15 hours ago, Strider said: "Whole Lotta Love" I look at as sonic sculpture. Jimmy sculpting with sound. If you read about the recording of the song, you hear about Jimmy Page and Eddie Kramer flying around the mixing board twisting dials and knobs and levers. It is one of the great headphone songs, as woz70 noted. Couldn´t agree more, a confident Jimmy Page transfered his vision onto tape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 2 hours ago, Strider said: Can you give me a timestamp? Is it during the spoken verse part? Yep, right after the "guitar army" and during Robert's first verse you can hear an electrical hum. It's not noticeable anywhere else because the instruments ring out as Robert sings each verse, masking it. But as woz70 stated you've gotta be listening very closely with quality headphones, so it's not like it's distracting. And yeah, it's on Battle Of Evermore as well, same sound and same volume except for the deluxe version, where it appears Davis has attempted to reduce/hide it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 9 hours ago, woz70 said: Getting rid of electrical hums comes under the banner of audio restoration - not really the remit of a remaster. Considering this, did you notice the "click" at the four second mark of Heartbreaker was removed on Davis' remaster? It's on every other source. I know Davis worked very hard to make these remasters the "final and ultimate" versions and there are several other instances where he cleaned up and masked small things like this. But God help me if I can remember them all now lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 12 hours ago, jsj said: No sorry. I became aware of these two examples (TYG & MMH) many years ago when someone on the old forum posted a list of these kind of quirks and I checked them out. Headphones are required for both. The unplugging of the jack in TYG is easy to hear but only if you know to listen for it. It’s either after the first or second solo. I haven’t heard it myself for many years so I may check it out at the weekend 3:46 on MMH is the only thing I hear that could be misconstrued as a wrong note, as he does a weird sounding descending riff. But doesn't sound "wrong" to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul carruthers Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 I haven't dabbled much in too many remasters or deluxe editions--if any--but, I've always been of the opinion that the so called mistakes or imperfections should be left in & not altered or smoothed over. It just adds to the charm of the music, but maybe that's just me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigante Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 I don't remotely mind the humming of amps. I want Zeppelin to be visceral and emotional, not pristine and sanitised. On the other hand, I'm glad I've never yet heard the squeaking bass drum pedal in SIBLY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 1 hour ago, gibsonfan159 said: Yep, right after the "guitar army" and during Robert's first verse you can hear an electrical hum. It's not noticeable anywhere else because the instruments ring out as Robert sings each verse, masking it. But as woz70 stated you've gotta be listening very closely with quality headphones, so it's not like it's distracting. And yeah, it's on Battle Of Evermore as well, same sound and same volume except for the deluxe version, where it appears Davis has attempted to reduce/hide it. Cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, Brigante said: I don't remotely mind the humming of amps. I want Zeppelin to be visceral and emotional, not pristine and sanitised. On the other hand, I'm glad I've never yet heard the squeaking bass drum pedal in SIBLY! It's funny...I do not think I heard the squeak until I bought the 1990 remasters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Just realized the same reverb effect is on the beginning of Gallows Pole, panned almost exactly like WLL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woz70 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said: Just realized the same reverb effect is on the beginning of Gallows Pole, panned almost exactly like WLL. Babe I'm gonna leave you - same You shook me - guitar centre panned, reverb L Your time is gonna come - acoustic guitar R, reverb L (harder to hear) Lemon song - vocal centre, reverb R Bring it on home - guitar L, reverb R, harmonica & vocals R - Their reverb L. This one's cool because you can hear that the intro is 'wet' (with reverb), but with the last harmonica blow the reverb is faded out making it 'dry', and the main riff comes in really in your face! Nice touch. Immigrant song - intro electric guitar L, reverb R Stairway - Acoustic guitar R, reverb L Ten years gone - more subtle, but same deal. Sick Again - really obvious bounce from Guitar L to reverb R For Your Life - guitar L, reverb R It's used a lot - enough to almost be a trademark of Page's production methods. Now you've heard it...... 19 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said: Considering this, did you notice the "click" at the four second mark of Heartbreaker was removed on Davis' remaster? Hadn't ever noticed before. It's not on the multitrack, so maybe introduced at mix down (?). Clicks are pretty easy to remove, especially digitally, and their removal doesn't cause anything additional to be added. If you put the 90's remaster and the latest one into a DAW and lined them up you might find that the new one is couple of milliseconds shorter after the 4s mark! I've not listened heavily to the latest batch of remasters TBH. They've had my money twice for the same content already.... Edited October 13, 2022 by woz70 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archetype Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 I remember (probably 45 years ago, now) hearing that reverberating guitar panned to the right side in the opening of WWL and how the bass then suddenly appeared on that side (with killer tone), and with my youthful imagination I thought the slider was up for the microphone on John Paul Jones’ bass amp and it was picking up Jimmy’s guitar from somewhere across a large recording studio -- as if my ear were next to the bass amp, and I got a little echoey sense of what was happening some distance away until the bass started and gloriously filled that side. Still sounds that way to me, even if the effect was actually "simulated" with a plate reverb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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