Zeppelin Mysteries Hosted by Steve A. Jones

[SteveAJones]

It's also hard to say Thank You was his first lyrical contribution when Whole Lotta Love, The Lemon Song, WIAWSNB and Heartbreaker all made their live debuts during the recording process for Zep II and its unclear as to when Thank You was penned in the fluid recording process.

Certainly, 'Thank You' is his first significant lyrical contribution. The points you've raised here are valid and require further examination.

[MS1]

I'm not sure why I should, considering the disprespectful way you've treated me in this thread. But why not? You're on the losing end of this one.

I'm well aware that a quote exists from Jimmy Page that 'Thank You' was the first song Robert wrote all the way through by himself. But that's not what you're trying to claim, you say that 'Thank You' was Robert's first attempt as a lyricist for Led Zeppelin, which would imply that Robert made no contribution to the lyrics of Led Zeppelin I.

For what it's worth, the story about Robert being under contract to CBS is all over the web, including on Robert's Wikipedia entry. Substantiating it in a book will have to happen when I'm home from work.

I don't know about the rest of you, but "It feels good to have you back again

And I know that one day baby, it's really gonna grow, yes it is.

We gonna go walkin' through the park every day." sure sounds pretty Robert to me.

[MS1]

Quote from Wikipedia Robert Plant Entry:

Plant and Page immediately hit it off with a shared musical passion and after Plant joined the band, they began their writing collaboration with reworkings of earlier blues songs, although Plant would receive no songwriting credits on the band's first album, allegedly because he was still under contract to CBS Records at the time.

Article sitations:

^ Led Zeppelin In Their Own Words compiled by Paul Kendall (1981), London: Omnibus Press. ISBN 0-86001-932-2, p. 14.

^ Dave Lewis and Simon Pallett (1997) Led Zeppelin: The Concert File, London: Omnibus Press. ISBN 0-7119-5307-4, p. 10.

^ Hammer Of the Gods, by Stephen Davis ISBN 1-57297-306-4 (p.48-49)

^ Gilmore, Mikal (August 10, 2006). "The Long Shadow of Led Zeppelin". Rolling Stone (1006). Retrieved on 2007-12-09. 

^ The History of Rock 'n' Roll: The '70s: Have a Nice Decade

^ http://www.superseventies.com/ssrobertplant.html

^ "Stairway to Heaven, Paved with Gold: Led Zeppelin’s Snowdonia." The Independent, 6th April, 1991.

Also sited on the Led Zeppelin Infrequently Murmured Trivia List

" Robert Plant did not receive any songwriting credits on 'Led

Zeppelin' as he was still under contract to CBS at the time."

[MS1]

Excellent substantiation on the matter of his contractual obligation to CBS Records.

Which would proclude him from receiving a writing credit from Atlantic for the length of the contract. Are you trying to claim it isn't germaine to the subject?

This has either become a matter of semantics or your reading in to what I posted.

I never said he made no contribution to the lyrics of Led Zeppelin I. I did say 'Thank You' was his first attempt as Led Zeppelin's lyricist. Meaning on his own. Jimmy does agree and that's good enough for me.

Semantics it may be, but you said as A lyricist, not THE lyricist. If that's what you meant, why the hell did you get your knickers in a twist when I said it was highly dubious that it was his first lyrical contribution to the band?

As far as stage ad libs not being writing Bong Man, would you say the same for the riffs Jimmy discovered ad libbing on stage? Whole Lotta Love was only one of those. There is more than one way to write, and on stage discoveries through improvisation definitely count.

[Bong-Man]

As far as stage ad libs not being writing Bong Man, would you say the same for the riffs Jimmy discovered ad libbing on stage? Whole Lotta Love was only one of those. There is more than one way to write, and on stage discoveries through improvisation definitely count.

Good point. But let me shoot this at ya'....If he really should be credited for lyrics on Zep 1, why isn't he now ? If Jake Holmes eventually got his due, why not Robert ?

[SteveAJones]

Which would proclude him from receiving a writing credit from Atlantic for the length of the contract. Are you trying to claim it isn't germaine to the subject?

Semantics it may be, but you said as A lyricist, not THE lyricist. If that's what you meant, why the hell did you get your knickers in a twist when I said it was highly dubious that it was his first lyrical contribution to the band?

I abolutely agree it would preclude him from receiving a writing credit. It's germaine insofar as it muddies the water as to what the depth and breadth of his lyrical

contributions to the first album are.

Quite frankly, I went off because of the discourteous manner in which you replied,

and not to the underlying point being made. Anyone can pull off a drive-by around

here but it's better to hit the brakes and talk it thru, as has been done here. Thank

you for your continued interest in and worthwhile contributions to this thread.

Edited February 29, 2008 by SteveAJones

[swandown]

Plant received no songwriting credits on Led Zeppelin I because of contractual obligations to CBS, but to claim that he had no involvement in the lyrics prior to 'Thank You' is highly dubious at best.

As a purely impartial observer here, I would say that this is an accurate statement. It's also worth noting that the revised credits for BIGLY and Baby Come On Home both credit Plant as co-writer, and ASCAP and the 2002 Atlantic Records lawsuit both credit Plant as co-writer for all the original songs on the first album.

Also, John Paul Jones was recently quoted as saying something to the effect of "Every lyric in every song was written by Plant". Personally I don't believe that to be true, but it's worth noting regardless.

[SteveAJones]

As a purely impartial observer here, I would say that this is an accurate statement. It's also worth noting that the revised credits for BIGLY and Baby Come On Home both credit Plant as co-writer, and ASCAP and the 2002 Atlantic Records lawsuit both credit Plant as co-writer for all the original songs on the first album.

Also, John Paul Jones was recently quoted as saying something to the effect of "Every lyric in every song was written by Plant". Personally I don't believe that to be true, but it's worth noting regardless.

It is accurate with the exception that no claim was ever made here that he had nothing to do with the first album's lyrics. I think that misunderstanding has been cleared up.

I don't believe JPJ's recollection either (and neither would Willie Dixon LOL!) unless what JPJ meant was every lyric with the exception of those he "borrowed" from

others for the first album.

[SteveAJones]

Robert Plant's CBS Records Recording Contract

In 1966 a talent scout with CBS Records signed 18-year-old Robert Plant to a recording contract.

Autumn '66, Plant proceeded to Regent Sound Studios on Denmark Street in London intent on recording a cover version of 'Incense' by The Angelos, however CBS had other ideas for the session.

Late '66, CBS Records released Plant's first single, 'You Better Run' b/w 'Everybody's Gonna Say' (co-written by Plant).

In Jan '67, The Band of Joy began a Sunday night residency at The Ship and Rainbow in Wolverhampton arranged thru Nita Anderson Presentations. This residency came to an end after a dispute over lyrics. Soonafter, Plant was fired from the original Band of Joy lineup for telling the drummer he was slowing down.

In Mar '67 CBS Records released Plant's second single, 'Our Song' b/w 'Laughing, Crying, Laughing'.

Summer '67 Bonham joined Plant in The Band of Joy and they toured the UK extensively.

In Sep '67 CBS Records released Plant's third single, 'Long Time Coming' b/w 'I've Got A Secret'.

Spring '68 Robert Plant and The Band of Joy recorded 8-track demos; 'Adriatic Sea View', 'Sweet Mary', 'Hey Joe', & 'What's That Sound?' at Regent Sound Studios in London.

The Band of Joy disbanded in May 1968.

Edited March 1, 2008 by SteveAJones

[deluxe]

I recall two quotes in a similar vein, although they had different contexts:

1. there was some initial uncertainty about Plant, but the fears were eased by the time the first album was recorded.

2. there was some concern that Plant wouldn't be able to handle being the primary lyricist, but those concerns were eliminated when Plant wrote "Thank You"

Again I may be wrong but,...I believe the article I read had Jimmy stating that near the end of the first tour, he was thinking of a possible replacement for Robert. I think because something like Robert was feeling homesick and wanted to see his wife.

The reason I remember this is because the interviewer made a big deal about it saying he couldn't believe Jimmy was thinking that way, after their initial success etc etc until Jimmy said it was time to move along with the interview.

It may have been a flippant remark but I'm sure it started with Page saying something to the effect of 'it almost was all for naught,' meaning Zeppelin almost never took off because the reasons above.

I don't know guys. There is a 100% chance I may be wrong but I have tons of Page and Zep interviews and near certain I read that. I even remember telling a friend about it at the time I read it.

I will look for the needle in the hay stack.

[SteveAJones]

I will look for the needle in the hay stack.

You'll have to for it to be examined any further.

[swandown]

Robert Plant's CBS Records Recording Contract

Steve, a few questions/corrections:

1. I thought Plant wanted to record "Incense" as the second single (not the first)?

2. I thought Bonham didn't join the Band Of Joy until much later, possibly as late as January 1968.

3. What's your source for the song "Sweet Mary"? I only know of "Adriatic Sea View", "Hey Joe" and "For What It's Worth", plus an unreleased song known as "Memory Lane" or "Dagger Lane".

[SteveAJones]

Steve, a few questions/corrections:

1. I thought Plant wanted to record "Incense" as the second single (not the first)?

2. I thought Bonham didn't join the Band Of Joy until much later, possibly as late as January 1968.

3. What's your source for the song "Sweet Mary"? I only know of "Adriatic Sea View", "Hey Joe" and "For What It's Worth", plus an unreleased song known as "Memory Lane" or "Dagger Lane".

Scott,

I will follow up on this inquiry within the next 24 hours as I'm working off of a thumb drive at the moment and it does not contain the notes I need to reference. We'll get

it sorted.

[Fresh Garbage]

Hey Steve, I've got one for you:

WHEN, EXACTLY, DID JIMMY PAGE ATTEND ART SCHOOL?

The "common" story was that Jimmy enrolled at Sutton Art College (does this place exist anymore?) shortly after leaving Neil Christian & The Crusaders in 1962. However, there is handwritten evidence from Jimmy himself (link) that he did not enroll in school until September 1963:

"In September I am going to Art School which will probably come as a surprise to you. But the truth of the matter is that lately all I want to do is paint and make sculptures so I want to further my education in Art."

Now, I suppose that Jimmy could have meant that he was returning to art school.....but then why not write "In September I am going back to Art School"?

And while I'm at it, here's another question for the Zepophiles:

WHEN, EXACTLY, DID JIMMY PAGE PLAY WITH NEIL CHRISTIAN?

Again, the traditional lore tells us that Jimmy played with Neil Christian for about 18 months from 1960 to early 1962. However, fellow bandmember Jumbo Spicer is on the record as stating that Jimmy joined much earlier than that -- as early as March 1959. Add 18 months to that and you end up with September 1961. And that begs the question: what was Jimmy doing from September 1961 to September 1963?

Well?

First off-Great thread! I have only made it about 7 pages in. but I had to comment on your question (Steve Jones: I have also read your observation below...thank you).....I had been trying to figure out this same mystery. this is what I have came up with:(by the way great question)

according to Zacron (the artist who made the Zeppelin #3 cover. and also long-time friend with Jimmy Page) claims that he/Zacron attended 'Kingston College of Art' at the dawn of the 60's, and also attended 'Studio35 in Surbiton' from 1957-1960. now he claims he met Jimmy while he was attending Kingston. and remained close friends with Jimmy all the way to his graduation into the Royal Academy, and some time after. (about 1964) that's when Page went back into music full time....He even speaks about Jimmy's Mother's Afghan Hound that used to sit on his lap in the front room of the Page family home....

Zacron said that Jimmy Page attended 'Epsom School Of Art'. and claimed that he first met Page while he/Zacron was attending Kingston, which was in the dawn of the 60's.... and also it is well known that Page left The Crusaders sometime in 62 because of Glandular Fever.

I also have never heard of or seen a 'Sutton Art College in Surrey' either? even though just about ever common Bio on Page all seem to claim it... (but they all seem to be the same Bio as well......lol)

as I am writing this, I can clearly see that this has not helped one bit at all. but this is how far I have got so far, and I hope to slove this mystery soon!

Edited March 1, 2008 by Fresh Garbage

[SteveAJones]

according to Zacron (the artist who made the Zeppelin #3 cover. and also long-time friend with Jimmy Page) claims that he/Zacron attended 'Kingston College of Art' at the dawn of the 60's, and also attended 'Studio35 in Surbiton' from 1957-1960. now he claims he met Jimmy while he was attending Kingston. and remained close friends with Jimmy all the way to his graduation into the Royal Academy, and some time after. (about 1964) that's when Page went back into music full time....He even speaks about Jimmy's Mother's Afghan Hound that used to sit on his lap in the front room of the Page family home....

Zacron said that Jimmy Page attended 'Epsom School Of Art'. and claimed that he first met Page while he/Zacron was attending Kingston, which was in the dawn of the 60's.... and also it is well known that Page left The Crusaders sometime in 62 because of Glandular Fever.

Can you cite more specifically where you are pulling Zacron's comments from? Jimmy

lived with his parents at 34 Miles Road in Epsom and yes, he normally entertained his

friends in the living room...jamming there with Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck etc. so Zacron's comment about the Afghan Hound in the living room makes perfect sense.

[Cactus]

There has been speculation that "Zacron" is a psuedonym for Page himself - is there any proof that Zacron exists?

Also I would like to put my 2 cents in here and say that in my view, this thread is for the sharing of/examination of information & facts regarding Led Zeppelin. It is not a competition for determining who is the most right.

If someone is wrong - and you can prove that they are wrong, then set them right. But don't attack the man, attack their argument.

Also, citing a Wikipedia article, dubious enough as it is - when that article only says, "allegedly" anyway - does not constitute a proper argument.

I don't believe JPJ's recollection either (and neither would Willie Dixon LOL!) unless what JPJ meant was every lyric with the exception of those he "borrowed" from

others for the first album.

Perhaps he meant that RP was the only one who ever wrote down the lyrics....haha

Edited March 1, 2008 by Cactus

[swandown]

There has been speculation that "Zacron" is a psuedonym for Page himself - is there any proof that Zacron exists?

He's been running his own website (zacron.com) for several years now. He even sells autographed reprints of the 3rd album cover.

Here's a picture of Zacron playing the flute while Jimmy strums some kind of dulcimer-type instrument:

http://www.zacron.com/view-item.asp?iid=82

Edited March 1, 2008 by swandown

[SteveAJones]

Also I would like to put my 2 cents in here and say that in my view, this thread is for the sharing of/examination of information & facts regarding Led Zeppelin. It is not a competition for determining who is the most right.

I couldn't agree more! Some of the topics we'll explore here may well remain unsolved despite our best efforts. Viewpoints may also differ. Jimmy and Jeff can't agree on who wrote Beck's Bolero so what hope have we got for reaching a consensus?!

[SteveAJones]

Steve, a few questions/corrections:

1. I thought Plant wanted to record "Incense" as the second single (not the first)?

2. I thought Bonham didn't join the Band Of Joy until much later, possibly as late as January 1968.

3. What's your source for the song "Sweet Mary"? I only know of "Adriatic Sea View", "Hey Joe" and "For What It's Worth", plus an unreleased song known as "Memory Lane" or "Dagger Lane".

Point 1: According to Chris Welch's book 'Power & Glory', Robert proceeded to the studio intent on recording a cover version of 'Incense' by The Angelos but CBS had other ideas for the session. I believe my original post is consistent with Welch and this refers to his

first session.

Point 2: According to Chris Welch's book 'Power & Glory' as well as 'John Bonham: A Thunder of Drums' John Bonham joined Robert Plant in The Band of Joy in Summer 1967

after getting drunk one night. According to 'Thunder of Drums', John quit The Band of Joy (who disbanded) in May '68 to team up with bassist Dave Pegg to back Tim Rose on a full UK Tour (for 40 pounds a week wages).

Point 3:According to Chris Welch's book 'Power & Glory', Robert Plant and The Band of Joy recorded 8-track demos at Regent Sound Studios in London (circa March '68); 'Adriatic Sea View' & 'Sweet Mary', 'Hey Joe', 'What's That Sound?'. I should also add

Welch states Robert cut some demos as a solo vocalist around the same time, to

include a cover of Elvis Presley's 'One Night'.

If you find any of these points to be incorrect or inconsistent with your findings please

reply accordingly. Thank you, swandown.

[swandown]

Point 1: According to Chris Welch's book 'Power & Glory', Robert proceeded to the studio intent on recording a cover version of 'Incense' by The Angelos but CBS had other ideas for the session. I believe my original post is consistent with Welch and this refers to his

first session.

In Plant's 2005 "Uncut" magazine interview, he says "I wanted to do 'Incense' by the Anglos. But they gave me ballads. They were trying to market me as a blue-eyed soul singer like Long John Baldry. I was embarrassed about it."

I'm inclined to think that the ballad reference was to "Our Song".

Point 2: According to Chris Welch's book 'Power & Glory' as well as 'John Bonham: A Thunder of Drums' John Bonham joined Robert Plant in The Band of Joy in Summer 1967

Here's my convoluted theory: Kevyn Gammond was in the Shakedown Sound just prior to joining the Band Of Joy, and I recall reading somewhere that he had been with the group through September 1967. So that means that the "classic" Band Of Joy lineup (Plant/Bonham/Gammond/Lockey/Brown) came together in September, right? But, Paul Lockey says that Bonham wasn't the first drummer in this lineup. So he must have joined sometime afterwards.

Then again, band lineups were hardly stable in these days, so it's quite possible that Gammond could have played with both bands in the summer & fall of 1967.

Point 3:According to Chris Welch's book 'Power & Glory', Robert Plant and The Band of Joy recorded 8-track demos at Regent Sound Studios in London (circa March '68); 'Adriatic Sea View' & 'Sweet Mary', 'Hey Joe', 'What's That Sound?'.

Hmmm. Very interesting. Did Welch really get the wrong title for Buffalo Springfield's "For What It's Worth"? That would make me wonder if he got the wrong title for "Sweet Mary" as well. Or perhaps it was a cover of the Leadbelly song? And he doesn't mention "Dagger/Memory Lane", which Robert has mentioned in at least 2 interviews.

Welch states Robert cut some demos as a solo vocalist around the same time, to

include a cover of Elvis Presley's 'One Night'.

This must be the Denny Cordell demos mentioned by Dave Lewis' "A Celebration". Interesting that Robert would record the same song with Zep 5 years later.

Edited March 1, 2008 by swandown

[SteveAJones]

So its The Anglos as opposed to The Angelos and clearly, Plant intended to record their song 'Incense' at that session but was pushed to do a ballad instead, 'Our Song'.

The band lineups are a bit of a train wreck. For one thing, Bonham had joined Plant as far back as '65 in The Crawling King Snakes. Perhaps Chris Welch or my notes on his work are mistaken concerning when Bonham joined The Band of Joy, but Chris states

Plant put together a Band of Joy lineup in Jan '67 and at least two others afterward.

It does make more sense that perhaps he JOINED a new lineup in Aug 67 (Summer)

and they began GIGGING in Sept 67 (as the "classic" line-up). Insofar as bandmate

recollections we know how unreliable those can sometimes be.

I agree Welch may have mistitled 'For What It's Worth' as 'What's That Sound?', which

is the chorus! I'm not certain if 'Sweet Mary' is a Leadbelly song, but I can look into

that. I agree 'Dagger/Memory Lane' may very well have been cut as solo demos with

Denny Cordell.

[Fresh Garbage]

Can you cite more specifically where you are pulling Zacron's comments from? Jimmy

lived with his parents at 34 Miles Road in Epsom and yes, he normally entertained his

friends in the living room...jamming there with Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck etc. so Zacron's comment about the Afghan Hound in the living room makes perfect sense.

I sure can Steve:....My Son was Christmas shoping and found a magazine from the Uk titled "Classic ROCK" it was a special collector's edittion DEC.2007 issue with the Zeppelin#3 cover on the front page with a 20+ page write up on Jimmy Page and Led-Zeppelin..... many folks gave stories like:Ian Anderson/Ritchie Blackmore/Marky Ramone/Joe Perry/Eddie Kramer/Tony Iommi/Roy Harper/Paul Stanley/Alice cooper/Danny Goldberge/and many others......

there is also a write up-interview with Zacron himself

[Cecil.]

About the robbery well good luck on that one!

On the run off to ITTOD "strawberry" I have always wondered about that ,any ideas?

[SteveAJones]

About the robbery well good luck on that one!

On the run off to ITTOD "strawberry" I have always wondered about that ,any ideas?

Hello Cecil,

Swandown may be able to nail this one a bit better as far as the specifics but basically it is the name of someone who was involved in the manufacturing of the album on vinyl.

[swandown]

Hello Cecil,

Swandown may be able to nail this one a bit better as far as the specifics but basically it is the name of someone who was involved in the manufacturing of the album on vinyl.

Steve is correct. It just means that the record was mastered by Strawberry Studios. Other records carried the inscription of "PECKO DUCK" or "PORKY" (because they were mastered by George Peckham). Jimmy had nothing to do with those inscriptions.