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SteveAJones

Zeppelin Mysteries Hosted by Steve A. Jones

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Just noticed this in an article from their tour of Holland October 1969: "...T.V. cameras were everywhere..." :ohmy:

Wonder if the footage still exists....

top_pops_oct_1969.jpg

Maybe we could find out his e-mail or something?

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hey steve

today i noticed that the songwriting credits on rock and roll have changed over the years. on the 4th album, the original SRTS soundtrack and mothership it's credited to all four members of the band but on HTWWW and the new SRTS bonham isn't listed at all. any info on this?

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I don't know of nor can I think of any reason why he was not credited on those particular releases so unless someone can provide an explanation I'll have to chalk it up to a typo or an oversight on the part of Atlantic records. It is known that Bonham's main contribution to the song is derived from Little Richard's 'Keep a Knockin', which was recorded in 1957 with Charles Connor on drums.

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imo сredits of a few songs have been revised and changed in recent years, more likely under the critics' pressure and the threat of court

although the first swallow was the case with "THE LEMON SONG" - with originally credits (Page / Plant/ Jones / Bonham),

then LZ desided to change the name and credits as: "KILLING FLOOR" (Burnett),

but later returned to previous names

In December 1972, Arc Music, owner of the publishing rights to Howlin' Wolf's songs, sued Led Zeppelin for copyright infringement on "The Lemon Song". The parties settled out of court. Though the amount was not disclosed, Wolf received a check for $45,123 from Arc Music immediately following the suit, and subsequent releases included a co-songwriter credit for him.

[Mick Wall, When Giants Walked the Earth: A Biography Of Led Zeppelin, London: Orion, p. 150, 2008]

so now we have: "THE LEMON SONG" (Page/ Plant/ Jones/ Bonham/ Burnett)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

later Willie Dixon successfully sued with Zeppelin:

"WHOLE LOTTA LOVE" - was originally (Page / Plant / Jones / Bonham)

now credits goes to: (Jones/ Plant/ Page/ Bonham/ Dixon)

[also I met such version of writing: (Bonham / Jones / Page / Plant / Dixon) - have no idea who and why constantly changing the order in credits? - this tricks with order we can find in a lot of their songs.

but i sure that the order means something as involvement into the song]

"BRING IT ON HOME" - originally (Page / Plant) - so, they took full writing credits for the song, where intro and outro parts had been written by Willie Dixon.

Dixon's publishing company sued Zeppelin. A settlement was reached out of court:

so, Led Zeppelin gave up full credits and now stated -> (Williee Dixon),

this story most weird as the main memorable moment - "middle section riff" - is of Page! and Zeppelin gave up all credits! WHY?

version included on the live release "How the West Was Won" listed the song as a medley on the cover.

"Bring It On Home" was credited to Dixon, while the middle section, newly named "Bring It On Back", was credited to (Bonham / Jones / Page / Plant).

in the movie "Cadillac Records" mentioned that "Willie Dixon successfully sued Led Zeppelin for 1 million dollars"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"BABY, I'M GONNA LEAVE YOU" -> was (trad.- arr. J.Page)

became (Bredon / Page / Plant)

Since 1990 the Led Zeppelin version has been credited to Anne Bredon / Jimmy Page & Robert Plant, and Bredon received a substantial back-payment in royalties.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"DAZED AND CONFUSED" -> not clear about a court, but I've already met credits writing as (Holmes)

----------------------------------------------------------

Even I think there was a talk and inside of the band to make more precise order in some credits:

"YOUR TIME IS GONNA COME" (Page, Jones) changed to -> (Jones, Page)

----------------------------------------

I could suggest the case with "ROCK AND ROLL" probably initiated by Page - more strictly divide authorship - the real decent income, as with other songs his credits had to move a bit aside and he lost a lot of money.

if to look - what's Bonham's involvement as author into the song in compare with others?

Edited by Ledy Mazeppa

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There's something I've been wondering about for years. I know that Page did some guitar overdubs, studio tweaking, etc. for the Coda album. Did Jones and Plant provide any new overdubs as well? I thought I read something years ago stating that they had, but haven't found any evidence since then to confirm this.

I realize that information is pretty scant on this album considering it was just a matter of tweaking existing tapes, but I was always intrigued by Coda. It was the second Zeppelin album I ever bought ($2.99 cutout from Record Town!). This album whetted my appetite for discovering the rest of the band's catalog, and I later would find it odd that it was generally slagged by a lot of people.

Different strokes I guess, but I love this record!

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There's something I've been wondering about for years. I know that Page did some guitar overdubs, studio tweaking, etc. for the Coda album. Did Jones and Plant provide any new overdubs as well? I thought I read something years ago stating that they had, but haven't found any evidence since then to confirm this.

I realize that information is pretty scant on this album considering it was just a matter of tweaking existing tapes, but I was always intrigued by Coda. It was the second Zeppelin album I ever bought ($2.99 cutout from Record Town!). This album whetted my appetite for discovering the rest of the band's catalog, and I later would find it odd that it was generally slagged by a lot of people.

Different strokes I guess, but I love this record!

I like it too RUSHZEP (good name) I find the leftovers from ITTOD to be good songs, also We're Gonna Groove, I can't Quit You....Lots of good tracks. I think the obscurity of it, is what attracts people to it. I have a few friends from High School that swear by this album. It's a favorite for some. It does have a certain appeal-and funny you bring up Coda, as I pulled it out for a good listen twice through today as I worked around my house........

I recall hearing the same thing about some overdub work, but that was a long long time ago, and don't remember the source of info. I will say it wasn't from the internet. It was from a magazine of some kind, I believe.

Edited by Rock Historian

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There's something I've been wondering about for years. I know that Page did some guitar overdubs, studio tweaking, etc. for the Coda album. Did Jones and Plant provide any new overdubs as well? I thought I read something years ago stating that they had, but haven't found any evidence since then to confirm this.

The album has more than a few edits and is loaded with overdubs, the most striking being the vocal track Robert Plant recorded for Walters Walk in 1982.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlk0WOrEftw

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Steve,

Wondering about the 4th US Tour of 1969, which started in October, when LZ2 was finally released, along with their Olympic Studio recording sessions in mid to late November, following their last three Winterland San Francisco dates in early November, which ended the 4th US tour.

  • 4th US Tour - why was only Heartbreaker and WIAWSNB added to the set from LZ2, especially after they tested Whole Lotta Love during the 2nd US tour? Seems interesting that they played Killing Floor as well (morphed into The Lemon Song) during the first two tours of the US, but didn't come back to that in that 4th tour. I don't count Moby Dick, as that was an extension of Pat's Delight. It looks like they still had supporting acts, perhaps their shows were only 1.5 hours or less, and they didn't want to take away from the longer Zep1 pieces (D&C, HMMT, WS)? Or maybe they didn't feel as confident in performing the new material, as they literally composed and recorded the songs in various places while on the road, and didn't have a chance to rehearse them after the 3rd US tour ended? I find it interesting that they did expand and change the set greatly though, in two months time, with the '70 UK tour.

  • Olympic Studios recording session November 1969: know an electric version of Bron Y Aur Stomp was composed, but where there others that were recorded, and ended up on LZ3 (or even ideas that appeared on later albums)? Also, how long were they in the studio that November?

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I'm familiar with his connection to Kellerman, but have not seen that document until now. It's going to take me some time to figure it out. The quick answer to your main

question is that I believe Spicer's recollections to be accurate. I believe Jimmy went

to Art School from 1960 onward, for about 18 months COLLECTIVELY, during and

after which he started doing studio work. Here's a data dump (it won't go into this forum properly formatted) for Page 1944-1964. It's not complete, just a rough outline:

January 9 1944 Sun Heston, Middlesex, England Grove Nursery Grove Road

James Patrick Page is born

??? ?? 19??Northamptonshire, England

The Page family moves to 400-acre farm property owned by Jimmy's Great-Uncle

??? ?? 1952Feltham, London, England

The Page family returns to Feltham for a short time

??? ?? 1953Feltham, London, England Hanworth Road School

Page is a student at this school

??? ?? 1953Epsom, London, England 34 Miles Road

The Page family moves again to escape the noise of Heathrow Airport

October 12 1953Epsom, London, England Pound Lane School Pound Lane

Page is admitted on this date as a transfer from Hanworth Road School in Feltham

??? ?? 195?-195?Epsom, London, England Dane Tree School

Page attends this school until the age of 15 or 16

??? ?? 1958Page and a band of boys including one David Hampson perform two songs on the BBC television program 'All Your Own' with host Huw Wheldon

??? ?? 19?????, England

Page attends a Ravi Shankar concert with a girl who was a friend of Shankar…they meet afterward and Shankar writes down sitar chords for Page

??? ?? 195?Epsom, London, England St. Barnabus Church

Page sings in the church choir

??? ?? 195?Epsom, London, England Foresters Hall Waterloo Road

Page attends dances held here on occasion

??? ?? 195?Epsom, London, England Toby Jug

Page also attends dances held here on occasion

??? ?? 195?Epsom, London, England Ebbisham Hall

Page attends a Joe Brown concert and records some of the gig

??? ?? 195?Epsom, London, England Granada Cinema

Page brings an ice cream to a girl of similarage and asks her out on a date but she refuses

??? ?? 1959Epsom, London, England Ebisham Hall

Page attended a few Red E. Lewis and The Redcats gigs, chatting to the band afterward and using the guitarist guitar to play licks, riffs and Chuck Berry solos

April (?) ?? 1959Epsom, London, EnglandChris Tidmarsh (Red E. Lewis and The Redcats manager) contacts Page after lead guitarist Bobby Oats announced he'd leave the band to go to drama school

April (?) ?? 1959Shoreditch, England Unknown pub

Chris Tidmarsh invites Page to where the band rehearsed in a room above a pub…he arrives with a solid body guitar and they jammed…he was invited to join band

??? ?? 1959-60The band gig around for a year until vocalist Lewis is replaced by Tidmarsh, who changed his name to Neil Christian…Page's stage name was Nelson Storm

??? ?? 59London, England City of London Recording Studios Brick Lane

Shortly after the lineup change, Christian took the band into the studio for a two-hour session and recorded four demos towards securing a recording contract

??? ?? 1959/60Sheffield, EnglandLive performance as guitarist with Neil Christian & The Crusaders

??? ?? 1960Surrey, England Sutton Art School

Having left Neil Christian and The Crusaders, Page enrolls in art college and studies there for about 18 months

??? ?? 1961London, EnglandAlbert Lee and Jimmy Page meet for the first time; they go on to often play records at each other's houses

??? ?? 1961Page develops an affinity for Albert Lee's sound (Gibson Les Paul Custom with Supro Amp) and buys a Supro of his own

??? ?? 196?Mermaid Theatre Puddle Dock Blackfriars EC4V 3DB

??? ?? 196?Cyril Davies invites Page to join his band…Page rehearses with Davies and Nicky Hopkins but declines

?? ??? 1962 or 1963Studio session for Brian Howard and The Silhouettes (from nearby Mitcham) first EMI single 'Somebody Help Me'

?? ??? 1963Studio session for Brian Howard and The Silhouettes (from nearby Mitcham) second EMI single 'The Worryin' Kind'

?? ??? 1962Page decides to drop out of art college to become a studio musician

February 25 1963 Mon London, England Pye Studios

Studio session for London All Stars album 'British Percussion' (Barclay BB 86) released in France in 1965

??? (mid) ?? 1963London, EnglandStudio session for Jet Harris & Tony Meehan single 'Diamonds'

??? ?? 196?London, England Decca Studios

Studio session for Dave Berry single 'My Baby Left Me'; meets Big Jim Sullivan for the first time

May 31 1964 Sun Kingston, London, England The Cellar Club 22-A High Street

Live performance as guitarist with Mickey Finn

June 29-July 7 1964 Mon/Tue London, England Decca Studios

Andrew Oldham Orchestra session…guitar and/or bassist on 'Try A Little Harder' (2:28) with various artists

June 29-July 7 1964 Mon/Tue London, England Decca Studios

Andrew Oldham Orchestra session…guitar and/or bassist on 'Somethings Just Stick In Your Mind' (2:30) with various artists

July 21-23 1964 Tue-Thu London, England Regent Sound Studios

Andrew Oldham Orchestra session…bassist on 'Heart of Stone' (3:49) with Jagger/McLaughlin/Cattini

September 17 1964London, England

Guitarist on 'Is It True?' with Brenda Lee…written by Carter Lewis, produced by Mickie Most and released on Decca (#31690)

September ?? 1964London, England

Guitarist on 'Just Behind the Rainbow' with Brenda Lee…b side of the 'Is It True?' single released on Decca (#31690)

September ?? 1964London, England

Guitarist on ''What'd I Say?' with Brenda Lee from the same session as 'Is It True?" and 'What'd I Say?'

October ?? 1964London, England

Studio session with Them for their single 'Baby Please Don't Go'; rhythm guitarist

??? ?? 1964Croydon, England Fairfield Halls Park Lane CR9 1DG

Attends John Lee Hooker's performance

.....For 1963 I found this information from Official Autobio. of R. Shankar...scanned Text Link:

ravishanker5.jpg

ravishankar3.jpg

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it seems unlikely that a typo error could occur on two releases

For what it's worth, Bonham is still credited as a co-writer by the ASCAP song publishing organization, and he was also listed as a co-writer in Led Zeppelin's 2002 lawsuit with Atlantic Records.

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imo сredits of a few songs have been revised and changed in recent years, more likely under the critics' pressure and the threat of court

although the first swallow was the case with "THE LEMON SONG" - with originally credits (Page / Plant/ Jones / Bonham),

then LZ desided to change the name and credits as: "KILLING FLOOR" (Burnett),

but later returned to previous names

In December 1972, Arc Music, owner of the publishing rights to Howlin' Wolf's songs, sued Led Zeppelin for copyright infringement on "The Lemon Song". The parties settled out of court. Though the amount was not disclosed, Wolf received a check for $45,123 from Arc Music immediately following the suit, and subsequent releases included a co-songwriter credit for him.

[Mick Wall, When Giants Walked the Earth: A Biography Of Led Zeppelin, London: Orion, p. 150, 2008]

I think Mick Wall is exaggering when he says that Howlin' Wolf received a check "immediately following the suit". From what I've read, Arc Music tried to keep the money for themselves, and they did not pay Wolf until after he sued them in 1974.

later Willie Dixon successfully sued with Zeppelin

It's true that Dixon's name was subsequently added to the credits of "Whole Lotta Love", but his name was recently removed by ASCAP and he's no longer listed as the song's co-writer by the U.S. Copyright Office.

Also, Dixon did not win his lawsuit. It was settled out of court on the second day of trial.

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Your Shankar posts are interesting but this was probably a year or more after the Shankar gig Jimmy attended, which presumably was in or around London.

...yes, it was bit doubtful, but these years are also the "art school Years", I think....

The Asian Music Circle in London in that era promoted R. Shankar's "Musical Performances" (previously he was a Stage Artist)....most noteable bookings at the Royal Festival Hall beginning in '58....I will have closer look at year of '61 and '62, as '60 appears to be bit before Pagey's time...

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With regard to the 4th US tour my notes show that Richard Cole said Jimmy & Charlotte had travelled to Morocco & Spain for about a month. That trip was probably in September which was the break between the 3rd and 4th US tours. Throw in the one Dutch, one French and one UK date in October and it leaves next to no time for rehearsing prior to their October 16th flight departure from Heathrow. Of course there could be any number of reasons why the setlist played out as it did on that tour, or perhaps no particular reason at all.

The November '69 studio sessions were tentative insofar as their approach and focus. Think embryonic as Jennings Farm Blues was certainly conceived. Unfortunately I don't have confirmation as to which dates of the month they were in session. They would have benefitted greatly in this regard by having a Bill Wyman in the band to document such activities as they happened. Any chronology of Led Zeppelin's sessions is bound to be imprecise, especially if one is expecting the level of detail found amongst some of their contemporaries.

Edited by SteveAJones

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...yes, it was bit doubtful, but these years are also the "art school Years", I think....

The Asian Music Circle in London in that era promoted R. Shankar's "Musical Performances" (previously he was a Stage Artist)....most noteable bookings at the Royal Festival Hall beginning in '58....I will have closer look at year of '61 and '62, as '60 appears to be bit before Pagey's time...

I wouldn't rule out '58 just yet, but again whichever year it was held it was almost certainly at a venue in the Greater London area.

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Why do the 1977 soundboard tapes have cuts in the music around the 45 minute mark due to tape flips, but the 1975 shows do not.

I would think that for every tour the board people would flip the tapes between the songs so as to not miss anything important, why didn't they do this in 1977?

Edited by mrledhed

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With regard to the 4th US tour my notes show that Richard Cole said Jimmy & Charlotte had travelled to Morocco & Spain for about a month. That trip was probably in September which was the break between the 3rd and 4th US tours. Throw in the one Dutch, one French and one UK date in October and it leaves next to no time for rehearsing prior to their October 16th flight departure from Heathrow. Of course there could be any number of reasons why the setlist played out as it did on that tour, or perhaps no particular reason at all.

The November '69 studio sessions were tentative insofar as their approach and focus. Think embryonic as Jennings Farm Blues was certainly conceived. Unfortunately I don't have confirmation as to which dates of the month they were in session. They would have benefitted greatly in this regard by having a Bill Wyman in the band to document such activities as they happened. Any chronology of Led Zeppelin's sessions is bound to be imprecise, especially if one is expecting the level of detail found amongst some of their contemporaries.

that's looks like a big mystery - whether "Kashmir" was inspired by a trip to Morocco, or Jimmy didn't go to Morocco till '75 and inspired by records of Arabic/ North African music ?

Page at least twice denied - in an interview at different time

Page interview for William Burroughs [Rock Magis by William Burroughs, Crawdaddy Magazine, June 1975]

86444128.jpg

recent interview for GW:

Page: I did a joint interview with William Burroughs for Crawdaddy magazine in

the early Seventies, and we had a lengthy discussion on the hypnotic

poser of rock and how it paralleled the music of Arabic cultures. This

was an observation Burroughs had after hearing "Black Mountain Side",

from our first album. He then encouraged me to go to Morocco and

investigate the music first hand, something Robert and I eventually did.

Edited by Ledy Mazeppa

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With regard to the 4th US tour my notes show that Richard Cole said Jimmy & Charlotte had travelled to Morocco & Spain for about a month.

Jimmy didn't start up with Charlotte until 9 January 1970, Jimmy's birthday and the date of the Royal Albert Hall gig.....

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Backwards Masking on Stairway to Heaven?

Coincidence, Imagination, Perception, Inscription or Fiction?

It's coincidental. If you sing the lyrics to the "my sweet satan" section and then play those backwards, it's the same lyrics as the original Stairway to Heaven section. Therefore, one can conclude that those backwards lyrics were entirely coincidental. There's no evidence that there was any intentional hidden message in the song.

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Jimmy didn't start up with Charlotte until 9 January 1970, Jimmy's birthday and the date of the Royal Albert Hall gig.....

You are absolutely correct. Though the date of the trip is unconfirmed it definitely wasn't '69, and I'm reminded of Page's remarks to Burroughs.

Sorry, my powers of concentration are waning this week.

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It's coincidental. If you sing the lyrics to the "my sweet satan" section and then play those backwards, it's the same lyrics as the original Stairway to Heaven section. Therefore, one can conclude that those backwards lyrics were entirely coincidental. There's no evidence that there was any intentional hidden message in the song.

Correct. In other words if you record yourself singing the lyrics and play it backwards the sounds approximate the same as those found on the original recording.

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The album has more than a few edits and is loaded with overdubs, the most striking being the vocal track Robert Plant recorded for Walters Walk in 1982.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlk0WOrEftw

That is very very interesting. Now realizing that he did recorded it at that time (1982) it makes sense, as you can hear it in his altered voice (style) compared with the Pictures at Eleven release that year. Very similar in approach, tone, etc. It certainly isn't the same vocal we would have heard at the time of the original recording. I think the vocal track is strong-what I don't like is the overall mix.

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Steve,

I`ve always wondered about whether the boys played more than just Dazed and Confused at the Staines 69 show and if so whether any of these other songs might have been filmed. Any ideas?

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