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SteveAJones

Zeppelin Mysteries Hosted by Steve A. Jones

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I doubt very much that the audio of the bootleg came from the multitrack - it was a most likely a soundboard source recorded straight to stereo from the engineers desk (Roberts voice has that horrid harmoniser on it :( blech)

There was only one feed coming from Jimmy's cabinet.

I don't understand why Jimmy wanted to include TYG from Knebworth but not something like Kashmir from Earls Court or other better performances.

Edited by Geezer

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There was only one feed coming from Jimmy's cabinet.

I don't understand why Jimmy wanted to include TYG from Knebworth but not something like Kashmir from Earls Court or other better performances.

Agree completely. Many other performances from EC or Knebworth would be more suitable for the masses than the TYG. I love TYG in the studio but only the best gigs from 77 do the song justice IMO. Maybe the Copenhagen gigs' TYG too.

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There was only one feed coming from Jimmy's cabinet.

I don't understand why Jimmy wanted to include TYG from Knebworth but not something like Kashmir from Earls Court or other better performances.

I'm only quoting what I remember from what Jimmy himself has been quoted as saying, and he gave TYG as a specific example. (On a side note, as a guitarist I personally would not use the same amp for a Les Paul and for a Tele as there is so much difference in tone between the two guitars - If Jimmy used a separate amp for the Tele, that would explain why there was no feed. Don't forget he had a stack of amps & cabs up there and nobody really seems to know for certain how he had them wired. Also bear in mind they only had 16 tracks of audio to play with, between 7 and 10 of which were probably used solely for the drums! Add in multiple keyboards, Bass Guitar and Vocals.....)

There would obviously been personal preference amongst the band members to take into consideration, both from an audio and video perspective. (Personally I reckon they thought Roberts voice was in better condition at Knebworth than EC)

Edited by woz70

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I don't like that approach at all.

For example, what was the need for overdubbing for TSRTS in 2007? The performances were top-notch.

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I'm only quoting what I remember from what Jimmy himself has been quoted as saying, and he gave TYG as a specific example. (On a side note, as a guitarist I personally would not use the same amp for a Les Paul and for a Tele as there is so much difference in tone between the two guitars - If Jimmy used a separate amp for the Tele, that would explain why there was no feed. Don't forget he had a stack of amps & cabs up there and nobody really seems to know for certain how he had them wired. Also bear in mind they only had 16 tracks of audio to play with, between 7 and 10 of which were probably used solely for the drums! Add in multiple keyboards, Bass Guitar and Vocals.....)

There would obviously been personal preference amongst the band members to take into consideration, both from an audio and video perspective. (Personally I reckon they thought Roberts voice was in better condition at Knebworth than EC)

I heard that EC and Knebworth were recorded on a 24 track machine - Knebworth was recorded with the Rolling Stones Mobile Studio, and at that point it was equiped with a 24 track machine, so they probably just forgot to send the signal from the mixing board to the recording machine when he used a different amp. I also heard that Jimmy's guitar from one of the nights didn't get recorded on TYG, thus why they wouldn't release both nights, he probably changed amps more so alot of songs missed the guitar. I'm just assuming, I see no reason why Jimmy wouldn't want to release the full show.

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I see many reasons why he wouldn't want to release the entire concert.

Why didn't he release all three MSG concerts?

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I don't like that approach at all.

For example, what was the need for overdubbing for TSRTS in 2007? The performances were top-notch.

Whether you like that approach or not is immaterial. I don't think there is a single commercially available recording by Led Zeppelin that does not make use of editing a performance to make a finished product to some degree (and I include the studio albums in this, probably more so than the live recordings!)

Also, I think you're confusing overdubbing with editing, and this can be a bit misleading for others reading this.

Overdubbing is recording brand new parts over an existing recording. This was absolutely not done for the 2007 release of TSRTS.

TSRTS is an edit, or a montage, where different performances have been spliced together to make a whole

They made it clear that the reasons for the edits in TSRTS were to match the audio as closely as possible to the visuals. I think, and many agree, that they should have taken the original approach to TSRTS and had separate audio for the actual film and the CD soundtrack. However, this would probably have meant paying Kevin Shirley twice - once to mix to viisuals, and again to have an audio only mix, so this may have been an issue in the decision process. It would have been a better solution all round, but it didn't happen.

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I heard that EC and Knebworth were recorded on a 24 track machine - Knebworth was recorded with the Rolling Stones Mobile Studio, and at that point it was equiped with a 24 track machine.

I didn't check on this and you are probably right for Knebworth. Pretty sure EC was 16 track. Mistakes happen though. It's live and you don't get second takes!

Edited by woz70

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Why didn't he release all three MSG concerts?

Wouldn't make much sense from a record company point of view - Three concerts from three concurrent days with pretty much the same set list? That really only makes sense to the supreme fans who will buy everything. Commercially it wouldn't make a great deal of sense flooding the market with overly similar product. At the end of the day music is still business (sadly). Also, all three surviving members have to agree to any release, and nobody's going to spend time and money polishing something that won't get unanimous approval.

Er.... sorry to SAJ if I appear to be derailing this thread.

Edited by woz70

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all three surviving members have to agree to any release

all three adore Led Zeppelin and each would never get in the way of something if it was of the right heart and right timing and what is best for the band. Insofar as "its a business"

"Demand unprecedented" applies to one band only. No Led Zeppelin Mystery at all on this.

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all three adore Led Zeppelin and each would never get in the way of something if it was of the right heart and right timing and what is best for the band. Insofar as "its a business"

"Demand unprecedented" applies to one band only. No Led Zeppelin Mystery at all on this.

Ha! Very true. But the record company still has to agree to release it too and will analyse the commercial viability of a release. Don't forget they're only in it for the money..... Three versions of essentially the same product would only be of interest to a niche market in the eyes of the number crunchers, and they have to weigh up production cost against acceptable profit margin. I don't disagree with your take, I'm just trying to get people to see the larger picture.

At the end of the day (TSRTS re-release aside... grrr) what has been released has been the best of the best, from the best. If it hasn't been released, there's generally a pretty good reason for that. Us lot aren't worried about warts'n'all, but Led Zeppelin has always been about the best they could do at the time they did it, and in order to maintain the mystique and legend of the band for new and future fans they really aren't going to release anything that could be construed as sub-par.

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Deep Purple's Live in Japan was recorded on three consecutive days and the band released all three concerts without any editing or overdubbing.

Edited by Geezer

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Deep Purple's Live in Japan was recorded at three consecutive nights and the band released all three of them without any editing or overdubbing.

And your point is? Different stroke for different folks. Purple are not Zeppelin. We have what we've been given, based on the choices made by either the band, or Jimmy in Zep's case, and the producers in Purple's case (can't remember who gets production credit for Made In Japan).

Jimmy has been an editing fiend from the day Led Zeppelin first stepped into the studio. (TSRTS version of Dazed and Confused wouldn't have fit onto vinyl without some editing!) If you're a Zep fan that's just something you have to accept - without Jimmy's production decisions they would not have been what they were and you have to just take the good decisions with your definition of the bad ones, bearing in mind that those decisions are inextricably linked with the way the band has been perceived. It's hard, but you can't have it both ways!

Edited by woz70

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My point is that if Deep Purple can "risk" releasing a live album that consists of three consecutive concerts, so can Zep. There's absolutely no question that any Zep product will be at least a slight commercial success.

Jimmy is an excellent studio producer, but releasing a live album does not need production skills at all. There are only two steps - mixing and mastering. The less edits/overdubs there are, the better the overall product is.

I don't understand how you can look at this in a different way.

Edited by Geezer

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Jimmy is an excellent studio producer, but releasing a live album does not need production skills at all. There are only two steps - mixing and mastering. The less edits/overdubs there are, the better the overall product is.

Mixing a live album is generally regarded as far more difficult than mixing a studio album, but I'm afraid the same processes apply and production skills are very much needed. If you think it's simply a process of bringing up the faders and that's it, you're very sadly mistaken. If that was the case Jimmy wouldn't have even bothered with multitracking the performances and would have flooded the market with the soundboard recordings in his possession rapidly putting all the bootleggers out of business!

I totally agree with the less is more approach to editing (I reiterate that the only commercially available live recording of Zeppelin with overdubs is the original release of TSRTS), but frankly Jimmy is the producer, period. His decisions are his to make in that role and that is that (and generally I can understand the choices he has made, aesthetically).

With all due respect, If you don't like his choices then you have the choice as a consumer not to listen to it, simples.

For example, I personally loathe the new version of TSRTS, so I choose to listen to the original release (with all it's inherent faults).

edited:(I've just done a bit of research, and Made In Japan seems to be regarded as a bit of a rarity for live recordings in that there are no edits.)

Edited by woz70

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What production skills are required when you already have the recorded material? It's all about mixing and mastering.

Do you know why bootlegs sound better than official releases?

Edited by Geezer

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What production skills are required when you already have the recorded material? It's all about mixing and mastering.

The producer oversees the whole project from start to finish. A hell of a lot can be done to change the way things sound during both the mastering, and especially the mixing process, and it's the producers vision of the project that shapes how this will be. Mixing covers not only balancing all the elements within a recorded track but how each of those elements are processed and treated before they even get to being mixed together (compression, gating, equalisation and other sound shaping processes etc..) in order for them not only to sound their best, but to fit within the producers concept of how they should sound. Generally the guy doing the mixing will produce far more than one mix of a track, and then will bow to the producers choice and continue working in the direction that the producer - not the mixing engineer - wants to progress. This is true for any recording, be it live in concert, a band playing live in a studio, or a band playing their parts separately (overdubbing!) in a studio.

The producer then takes the mixed track to the mastering engineer, who will also have his own ideas about how it should sound, but has the benefit of the producer who has seen the project through from start to finish and who is able to guide the mastering engineer into realising the producers vision of the track. Without production skills you would have three or four different peoples ideas of how a track should sound imposed on it and generally you end up with a mess that nobody is happy with (been there, done that).

Do you know why bootlegs sound better than official releases?

That's pretty subjective, and depends on the source, so I'm not prepared to get into a 'well I think that sounds better' discussion. Some bootlegs are horrific, some are awesome. The sound at most gigs is pretty poor for the first three or four songs anyway, unless you're REALLY lucky.

I have yet to hear many bootlegs that are better sound quality than an official release in my opinion. I fully appreciate you have your own opinions, and as I have said before, you are fully entitled to them whilst appreciating that I am entitled to mine.

Edited by woz70

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I know all of that stuff. What you're failing to grasp is that none of Zep's live releases have been acclaimed by audiophiles or anyone. In fact, I've seen many people criticize most of Zep's live releases for different things, myself included. So yeah, I don't think Jimmy is a good "live album producer" because I've seen much better live albums than TSRTS. Even HTWWW has many edits - this is just inexcusable.

Re: "I have yet to hear many bootlegs that are better sound quality than an official release in my opinion" - how can a soundboard tape sound better than a professionally mixed multitracked audio? We're talking about editing here. Unedited shows are always better than edited ones.

Edited by Geezer

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I know all of that stuff. What you're failing to grasp is that none of Zep's live releases have been acclaimed by audiophiles or anyone. In fact, I've seen many people criticize most of Zep's live releases for different things, myself included. So yeah, I don't think Jimmy is a good "live album producer" because I've seen much better live albums than TSRTS. Even HTWWW has many edits - this is just inexcusable.

Re: "I have yet to hear many bootlegs that are better sound quality than an official release in my opinion" - how can a soundboard tape sound better than a professionally mixed multitracked audio? We're talking about editing here. Unedited shows are always better than edited ones.

I'm not claiming that they've been acclaimed. All I've said all along is that they are what they are, and that's all we've got as an official release. If you prefer the bootlegs stay with them. I really enjoy HTWWW, and I think it sounds awesome - especially the acoustic set. It's not badly mixed, it's got dynamic range (quiet bits and loud bits) the drums thump you in the guts on decent stereo. It's not for audiophiles, but then it's a recording of a live performance, so that doesn't really matter.

Yes there are edits, some for aesthetic reasons and some for copyright reasons, but they don't stick out like a sore thumb like some of the edits on TSRTS do, and frankly about 90% of the people who bought and listen to HTWWW are unaware of any edits and love it for what it is - damn good music. For me it is what it is, what any recorded music is, a decent representation of the sound the band is making, but unfortunately without the atmosphere of actually being there and feeling the music. I think it sounds great, energetic and exciting and that's good enough for me. The fact that we can no longer hear Roberts voice fail to hit a note in Immigrant Song, or that some missed cue has been tidied up is not really relevant to me. What does it really matter?

It has obviously detracted from your enjoyment (probably because you already know the boots inside out and find it jarring to hear any changes), and that's sad. But you've still got the boots, so go back to them, forget about HTWWW or TSRTS and let everyone else who does enjoy it, enjoy it! But on the same note, stop clamouring for Jimmy to release more stuff because you'll probably bitch about it if he does.

As I said before, you can't have it both ways. He will not allow anyone else to produce Zep material, so you either need to accept that if and when anything more is released it will be 'tidied' (for want of a better word), or stop asking for more and enjoy what the bootleggers have for you. From what you've said so far, I reckon the bootleggers have the edge.

Edited by woz70

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Okay, I disagree with everything you're saying but we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Edited by Geezer

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Okay, I disagree with everything you're saying but we'll have to agree to disagree here.

God dammit, just let it go... You're questions are always about the same thing and when the awnser's not what you think it is you bitch about it...

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What does "bitching about" mean? Yeah I don't like the production of TSRTS and I don't think I'm alone here. Only an outright fanboy would defend Jimmy when it comes to things like this.

Engineering on HTWWW is just horrific and I know what I'm talking about. Bonham's flattened drum sound speaks for itself.

Edited by Geezer

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What does "bitching about" mean? Yeah I don't like the production of TSRTS and I don't think I'm alone here. Only an outright fanboy would defend Jimmy when it comes to things like this.

Engineering on HTWWW is just horrific and I know what I'm talking about. Bonham flattened drum sound speaks for itself.

I agree that there's just way to many plugins being used on HTWWW but TSRTS is a great live album. I never dug the sound of HTWWW but the show is still tremendously good, possibly one of the best Zeppelin shows ever, and thank god we have a cleaned up version of the show for us to listen to, but man... those drums sound overproduced as hell... that snare in the beginning.. sounds like the shirley put some god awfull plugins on that, the guitar is all over the place, but I still love it anyways, and I listen to it regularly... I've always loved TSRTS and I never quite got the whole hatred towards the mixing. The older version sounds better than the remastered version, but it's still awesome, at least to my ears. Black Dog from TSRTS made me want to pick up the guitar. There's just something about Jimmy's tone in that show...

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I've been saying for a long time that TSRTS needs to be done from scratch. It has a huge potential to become much better than it already is. The older version is better than the newer one but it's way too short and the mixing isn't good at all.

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Okay, I disagree with everything you're saying but we'll have to agree to disagree here.

I really don't understand what you're disagreeing with, but if you feel the need I'm happy with that. I've agreed with you on some points (maybe you missed that???) so if you disagree with everything I'm saying it seems you can't agree with yourself either. :mellow:

Basically it seems that you hate the bootlegs (you disagreed with everything I said, remember. Maybe you didn't actually read it all.....) and you hate Jimmy's production on the official releases? Is there anything you do like about what we've been discussing?

Just curious.

Edited by woz70

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