Zeppelin Mysteries Hosted by Steve A. Jones

[shinedaddy]

As to Robert's vocals on TSRTS, it may not have been an octave, but close? It sounds like one tone higher and Alvin the Chipmunk would be singing the song, not Robert Plant.

So, a possible unsolved mystery, or no? Just how much were Plant's vocals altered on The Song Remains the Same?

There is NO MYSTERY here. They recorded the instrumental track, regular speed. They played it back a LITTLE slower and had Robert sing over that when they recorded his vocals. They then played it back at regular speed. The instruments went back to their normal pitch and Robert's voice goes a little higher than when he recorded it. NOW Way did he sing it an octave lower than what we are hearing on the LP. My best educated guess, since I actually know what the hell I am talking about here, is that his vocal may have been raised by a third or a fourth, tops! Any more than that and the inflections he would have sang would have sounded weird sped up. Can you imagine him singing some of those lines at a low pitch? There is no way to make a line like California sunlight, Sweet Calcutta Rain sound the way it does if he had sung it low. The pitch we hear is close to the actual pitch he sang it at, case closed. Like I said, maybe a third or a fourth, at MOST!!!

Let's move on to real mysteries here. This one is just a case of either ignorance of studio techniques OR musical theory OR vari-speed possibilites OR whatever, but it aint no mystery!

[Nathan]

There is NO MYSTERY here. They recorded the instrumental track, regular speed. They played it back a LITTLE slower and had Robert sing over that when they recorded his vocals. They then played it back at regular speed. The instruments went back to their normal pitch and Robert's voice goes a little higher than when he recorded it. NOW Way did he sing it an octave lower than what we are hearing on the LP. My best educated guess, since I actually know what the hell I am talking about here, is that his vocal may have been raised by a third or a fourth, tops! Any more than that and the inflections he would have sang would have sounded weird sped up. Can you imagine him singing some of those lines at a low pitch? There is no way to make a line like California sunlight, Sweet Calcutta Rain sound the way it does if he had sung it low. The pitch we hear is close to the actual pitch he sang it at, case closed. Like I said, maybe a third or a fourth, at MOST!!!

Let's move on to real mysteries here. This one is just a case of either ignorance of studio techniques OR musical theory OR vari-speed possibilites OR whatever, but it aint no mystery!

WOAH! I'm sorry, dude. No need to get all huffy about it!

And I will readily admit my ignorance to all of this as it's still another month or two before I head off into the recording studio for the first time. I was making the point that to me it sounds like one tone higher and Alvin the Chipmunk would be singing. I don't think Robert ever hit those vocals live, and, quite frankly, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a guy who could...

Edited April 17, 2008 by Nathan

[shinedaddy]

WOAH! I'm sorry, dude. No need to get all huffy about it!

And I will readily admit my ignorance to all of this as it's still another month or two before I head off into the recording studio for the first time. I was making the point that to me it sounds like one tone higher and Alvin the Chipmunk would be singing. I don't think Robert ever hit those vocals live, and, quite frankly, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a guy who could...

huffy...ha, good one. My point is, lets keep it real mysterious...not just something one or two people cant figure out or are confused on. I mean hell, some people dont know the lead singer's name but it aint no mystery, you get my point?

[Nathan]

huffy...ha, good one.

I try...

My point is, lets keep it real mysterious...not just something one or two people cant figure out or are confused on. I mean hell, some people dont know the lead singer's name but it aint no mystery, you get my point?

Fair enough.

[jabe]

huffy...ha, good one. My point is, lets keep it real mysterious...not just something one or two people cant figure out or are confused on. I mean hell, some people dont know the lead singer's name but it aint no mystery, you get my point?

How many of us have worked in a studio,or even spent time playing a harmoniser?

I dare say more than two people didn't know how this effect was achieved.

You solved the mystery,unless someone refutes it.

As SteveAJones wants in his thread,"collaboration."

[SteveAJones]

You solved the mystery,unless someone refutes it. As SteveAJones wants in his thread,"collaboration."

The collaboration aspect was certainly robust and it seems a consensus was achieved.

Nicely done, everyone.

[deluxe]

There is NO MYSTERY here. They recorded the instrumental track, regular speed. They played it back a LITTLE slower and had Robert sing over that when they recorded his vocals. They then played it back at regular speed. The instruments went back to their normal pitch and Robert's voice goes a little higher than when he recorded it. NOW Way did he sing it an octave lower than what we are hearing on the LP. My best educated guess, since I actually know what the hell I am talking about here, is that his vocal may have been raised by a third or a fourth, tops! Any more than that and the inflections he would have sang would have sounded weird sped up. Can you imagine him singing some of those lines at a low pitch? There is no way to make a line like California sunlight, Sweet Calcutta Rain sound the way it does if he had sung it low. The pitch we hear is close to the actual pitch he sang it at, case closed. Like I said, maybe a third or a fourth, at MOST!!!

Let's move on to real mysteries here. This one is just a case of either ignorance of studio techniques OR musical theory OR vari-speed possibilites OR whatever, but it aint no mystery!

If you can prove that by having Jimmy or someone else explain that I will buy it. I don't think they do what you say they do (slow that track down for vocals then speed it up) because Roberts voice sounds normal in the beginning but at the end it is altered up moreso. If they did that, because of Roberts vocals are higher than the beginning, the music would be in a different key at the end and it isn't. Not to mention the bleeding and detuned issues from slowing down then speeding it up. Roberts voice is detuned like a chorus pedal or pitch shifter but the track isn't shifted at all.So for the record if you can prove what you said, I'm calling bullshit.

[shinedaddy]

If you can prove that by having Jimmy or someone else explain that I will buy it. I don't think they do what you say they do (slow that track down for vocals then speed it up) because Roberts voice sounds normal in the beginning but at the end it is altered up moreso. If they did that, because of Roberts vocals are higher than the beginning, the music would be in a different key at the end and it isn't. Not to mention the bleeding and detuned issues from slowing down then speeding it up. Roberts voice is detuned like a chorus pedal or pitch shifter but the track isn't shifted at all.So for the record if you can prove what you said, I'm calling bullshit.

uh, ok, well let me try to explain that they DON'T HAVE TO DO THE WHOLE SONG IF THEY DON'T WANT TO! You can record a higher pitched vocal in just a single phrase if you wanted to. The parts where Robert sounds normal, they probably let him sing along to the track normal speed. SImple enough for ya?

Also what detuned issues? I think you are WAAAAAAAAY overthinking this...it is actually a very simple procedure. Once you play the tape at the correct speed with all the tracks the ONLY thing that will sound odd is the voice, which is slightly higher than it was when recorded because it was recorded at a slightly slower speed.

Also you seem to think that if they slow and speed up a tape manually that the listener will hear these fluctuations on an LP. WRONG!!!! They play the tape back at a constant 30ips, or 15 sometimes, to master or mix etc, so however they got the sounds on the tape, and at whatever speed, are all being played back together at the same speed so the effect is a harmonious, intended sound. You seem to think we should be hearing different keys, detuning, weird splices...I dont know, but the obvious thing is that you have never recorded or been in a studio with tape. You have NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!

So I am done here. i cant keep explaining the simplest thing just because some numb-nuts cant understand...if you get it, great. if not, then yeah, I guess you are gonna have to call the whole thing bullshit 'cause you DON'T get it!! I guess everything you dont understand is just utter bullshit then, right?

Maybe someone else with more patience can introduce these concepts to you in a simpler, nicer way but I cant and wont. It's not my fault your dense.

An analogy:I dont understand how to fix a submarine but I also dont go onto submarine fixing websites and shout at people who know more about it, and tell them they dont know shit, just because I DON'T UNDERSTAND! That would make me an IDIOT!!

Edited April 18, 2008 by shinedaddy

[deluxe]

uh, ok, well let me try to explain that they DON'T HAVE TO DO THE WHOLE SONG IF THEY DON'T WANT TO! You can record a higher pitched vocal in just a single phrase if you wanted to. The parts where Robert sounds normal, they probably let him sing along to the track normal speed. SImple enough for ya?

Also what detuned issues? I think you are WAAAAAAAAY overthinking this...it is actually a very simple procedure. Once you play the tape at the correct speed with all the tracks the ONLY thing that will sound odd is the voice, which is slightly higher than it was when recorded because it was recorded at a slightly slower speed.

Also you seem to think that if they slow and speed up a tape manually that the listener will hear these fluctuations on an LP. WRONG!!!! They play the tape back at a constant 30ips, or 15 sometimes, to master or mix etc, so however they got the sounds on the tape, and at whatever speed, are all being played back together at the same speed so the effect is a harmonious, intended sound. You seem to think we should be hearing different keys, detuning, weird splices...I dont know, but the obvious thing is that you have never recorded or been in a studio with tape. You have NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!

So I am done here. i cant keep explaining the simplest thing just because some numb-nuts cant understand...if you get it, great. if not, then yeah, I guess you are gonna have to call the whole thing bullshit 'cause you DON'T get it!! I guess everything you dont understand is just utter bullshit then, right?

Maybe someone else with more patience can introduce these concepts to you in a simpler, nicer way but I cant and wont. It's not my fault your dense.

An analogy:I dont understand how to fix a submarine but I also dont go onto submarine fixing websites and shout at people who know more about it, and tell them they dont know shit, just because I DON'T UNDERSTAND! That would make me an IDIOT!!

Unless you were in the booth (if you know what that is since you appear to be an expert) when this song was recorded, you don't know jack shit? A direct quote from Jimmy Page earlier in this thread explains the songs that were altered for speed. TSRTS wasn't one according to the one person who would know and the one person that was there. You are familiar with Jimmy Page and that he produced these records aren't you?

So listen up you condescending know it all fucktard. Like everyone who has to provide PROOF of what Zeppelin did or said, why don't you do the same instead of continually insulting peoples opinions.

Like I said before, prove to me Jimmy Page did what you say he did, and I will believe you. Until then, like before, you don't know JACK SHIT.

EDIT;

Furthermore, you stated that the track was slowed down, Roberts voice put on top, then the whole thing was sped up. Then regarding Plants higher vocals at the end, you say they can go in and alter it( punch in- are you familiar with that term). If thats the case, why would they drop the speed of the song in the first place when all they would have to do is add an effect after the fact on Plants voice. I've been in a studio more than once or twice over a 25 year career as a professional musician and what you're saying would be completely redundant in regards to multi-track recording techniques.

Edited April 18, 2008 by deluxe

[SteveAJones]

shinedaddy & delux: I just thought I'd remind you both you don't have to reach agreement. Each of you raise valid points, and it would probably be best to post only those points, lest your posts be removed. The pointless personal attacks detract from your viewpoints, which are read here by everyone. Thank you for your contributions to this thread.

Edited April 18, 2008 by SteveAJones

[mos6507]

If you want to talk about varispeed, check out Four Sticks as well. Plant sounds even more unnatural there.

[4moz]

sry wrong thread

Edited April 24, 2008 by 4moz

[The Rover]

Big Jim Sullivan

Interesting facts With Other Legendary Guitarists from Wiki

Ritchie Blackmore and Steve Howe were given guitar lessons by Sullivan.

Sullivan, together with Ritchie Blackmore and Pete Townshend, persuaded Jim Marshall to make amplifiers.

Sullivan was known as Big Jim, whilst Jimmy Page was known as Little Jim.

Jimmy Page borrowed Sullivan's Gibson J-200 acoustic for the recording of Led Zeppelin.

[SteveAJones]

Update to post #533 concerning the mystery behind the existence of Barrington Colby

and if any of his other work has been identified:

"Snow Queen" by Barrington Coleby - (link below)

http://www.artistsuk.co.uk/acatalog/GENERA...LER_PRINTS.html

There is therefore the possiblity Barrington Colbey's name is mispelled "Colby" on the

album jacket for 'Led Zeppelin IV' (!) which accounts for why other examples of his work have been hard to locate. Additional searches on Barrington Coleby yield more results.

As a reminder, Barrington was last reportedly known to have moved from Norwich to Switzerland. The main mystery of if he really illustrated the inner album sleeve as Jimmy

has claimed is pretty much solved -- he did.

[4moz]

I think I know the answer to this question but I want to be sure. Are there any video recordings of Zeppelin in studio? If so which songs?

[Cactus]

Jimmy Page borrowed Sullivan's Gibson J-200 acoustic for the recording of Led Zeppelin.

I didn't realise it was Sullivan's guitar but I knew it was borrowed, and Page lamented the fact that he couldn't keep it. It was used on BIGLY and has a beautiful sound.

I think I know the answer to this question but I want to be sure. Are there any video recordings of Zeppelin in studio? If so which songs?

I've never even thought about this, you know. I've certainly never seen video/film footage from the studio, the closest to that sort of thing has been Eddie Kramer's photos, but even then there are very few of them actually recording, it's mostly stuff of them mucking around outside the studio.

[Cactus]

For once in a while this thread is a little quiet. I have a new one.

MrZoSo has made a claim in another thread that Robert Plant sold his songwriting royalties for Led Zeppelin's songs to Jimmy Page in 1983.

Plant sold his rights to the Led Zeppelin material in the early

1980's, although he still maintains 1/3 creative control, but he

doesn't get any royalties from the sales of Led Zeppelin albums,

hence his comment when being interviewed by Letterman about

Zeppelin being more rewarding for Jimmy these days. Robert has

used this control to veto the 20th anniversary single of

"Stairway to Heaven" and the use of any Zeppelin material in the

film "Dazed and Confused."

Can anyone confirm or deny this, or offer any more information?

[SteveAJones]

MrZoSo has made a claim in another thread that Robert Plant sold his songwriting royalties for Led Zeppelin's songs to Jimmy Page in 1983.

Can anyone confirm or deny this, or offer any more information?

Robert Plant did sell his rights to royalties from Led Zeppelin's back catalog circa 1983.

This was during the height of New Wave Pop & New Wave British Heavy Metal music.

I believe he sold them to the label (Atlantic Records).

There was a 20th Anniversary single for 'Stairway to Heaven' but Director Richard Linklater was told he could not use Led Zeppelin music in 'Dazed And Confused' despite having held a favorable private screening with Page/Plant. Some internet sites infer Jones & Page approved but Robert opposed and exerted 1/3 creative control. I

don't specifically remember but I seem to recall Linklater was simply told it was a

"band decision". They had yet to allow their music to be used in any films at that time.

[MrZoSo]

Robert Plant did sell his rights to royalties from Led Zeppelin's back catalog circa 1983.

This was during the height of New Wave Pop & New Wave British Heavy Metal music.

I believe he sold them to the label (Atlantic Records).

There was a 20th Anniversary single for 'Stairway to Heaven' but Director Richard Linklater was told he could not use Led Zeppelin music in 'Dazed And Confused' despite having held a favorable private screening with Page/Plant. Some internet sites infer Jones & Page approved but Robert opposed and exerted 1/3 creative control. I

don't specifically remember but I seem to recall Linklater was simply told it was a

"band decision". They had yet to allow their music to be used in any films at that time.

And in my best Elvis voice...

Huuh Thank u, Steve...Huuih thank u very much.

[MrZoSo]

For once in a while this thread is a little quiet. I have a new one.

MrZoSo has made a claim in another thread that Robert Plant sold his songwriting royalties for Led Zeppelin's songs to Jimmy Page in 1983.

Can anyone confirm or deny this, or offer any more information?

Just to clarify, I said this...

I believe it was 83 when Robert sold his royalties to Atlantic, which wound up in the hands of Jimmy.

[SteveAJones]

And in my best Elvis voice...

Huuh Thank u, Steve...Huuih thank u very much.

In my best Tortelvis voice -

I'll post more details when I find them. I'd never heard he sold them to Jimmy before. So far as I know it was a deal with Atlantic Records which may have been tied into starting his own label (Es Paranza) and launching a solo career so it could have been 1981; my notes elude me at the moment.

Edited May 8, 2008 by SteveAJones

[MrZoSo]

In my best Tortelvis voice -

I'll post more details when I find them. I'd never heard he sold them to Jimmy before. So far as I know it was a deal with Atlantic Records which may have been tied into starting his own label (Es Peranza) and launching a solo career so it could have been 1981; my notes elude me at the moment.

Is why I cleared that part up. I did not say he sold them to Jimmy. Not an issue. It is my understanding however that Jimmy does own/obtained them at a later date. No source on that.

[Cactus]

There was a 20th Anniversary single for 'Stairway to Heaven' but Director Richard Linklater was told he could not use Led Zeppelin music in 'Dazed And Confused' despite having held a favorable private screening with Page/Plant. Some internet sites infer Jones & Page approved but Robert opposed and exerted 1/3 creative control. I

don't specifically remember but I seem to recall Linklater was simply told it was a

"band decision". They had yet to allow their music to be used in any films at that time.

I remember someone said something along the lines of "how much are you going to pay us" and the offer was something like $100,000, and the response was "that's not very much when you have to split it three ways". But I think the financial part of the deal wouldn't have had much to do with the decision not to allow it.

[swandown]

I don't think it's ever been clarified if Robert sold off his songwriter royalties or his Led Zeppelin royalties.

[Cactus]

I don't think it's ever been clarified if Robert sold off his songwriter royalties or his Led Zeppelin royalties.

That's a good point. Has he just sold his songwriting rights? Does he still get royalties as a performer. Does this include TSRTS etc?