Zeppelin Mysteries Hosted by Steve A. Jones

[zepyep]

Hi all,

Steve,where in LOTR is the word Hobbstweedle?

KB

Book writers and webmasters everywhere please note Hobbstweedle is in Lord of the Rings, but Robert Plant altered the spelling for his band in '68:

"Obstweedle" -- direct quote from Robert in response to inquiry, Toronto, July 4 1998

Mothers in Birmingham

June 8 1968

Scan courtesy of dazedjeffy

[SteveAJones]

Hi all,

Steve,where in LOTR is the word Hobbstweedle?

KB

In Post #987 of this thread Meg Ireland posted:

I wonder why Plant changed the spelling? It's Hobbstweedle in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.

I took what Meg said at face value. I'm not an avid Tolkien enthusiast, nor highly familiar with his work so perhaps someone here can confirm beyond any doubt if the name does or does not appear in Tolkien's books.

[Evster2012]

In Post #987 of this thread Meg Ireland posted:

I wonder why Plant changed the spelling? It's Hobbstweedle in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.

I took what Meg said at face value. I'm not an avid Tolkien enthusiast, nor highly familiar with his work so perhaps someone here can confirm beyond any doubt if the name does or does not appear in Tolkien's books.

There is no Hobbstweedle in any of Tolkien's books with either spelling that I can find. My guess is that whoever coined the name was combining Hobbits and Tweedle, as in Tweedle Dum and Dee, merging Tolkein and Louis Carroll from Alice in Wonderland.

Edited August 8, 2008 by Evster2012

[SteveAJones]

There is no Hobbstweedle in any of Tolkien's books with either spelling that I can find. My guess is that whoever coined the name was combining Hobbits and Tweedle, as in Tweedle Dum and Dee, merging Tolkein and Louis Carroll from Alice in Wonderland.

Evster, many thanks for the clarification of this matter. Your suggestion is certainly

worthy of further examination.

Edit: Does anyone know if there are variants to the pronunciation of the word "Hobbits" in Tolkien's Elvish Middle Earth Languages?

I ask because in the July 4 1998 interview to which I referred earlier the interviewer pronounces the word Hobbstweedle as "Hahbbstweedle" (the "H" is heard) and Robert immediately interjects with a corrective pronunciation of "Awhbstweedle" (the "H", if any, is silent). So there was a distinct difference in vocal inflection.

What I am getting at is the possibility Robert was correcting the pronunciation of the

band name as opposed to the spelling? Evster's suggestion is compelling enough to

merit a reconsideration of the original exchange between the interviewer and Robert.

However, bear in mind that newspaper ad from thirty years prior ("Obs' tweedle").

Edited August 8, 2008 by SteveAJones

[Evster2012]

Well Steve, I think the "Obs" pronunciation may just be the English manner of not pronouncing the "H" in some regions.

As for Elvish words for Hobbit: Periannath or Berian

[lzfan715]

I had heard it pronounced: Hob-stweedle.

[SteveAJones]

Well Steve, I think the "Obs" pronunciation may just be the English manner of not pronouncing the "H" in some regions.

As for Elvish words for Hobbit: Periannath or Berian

I suspect that could well be his intent and I don't want to take it too far and assume he was asserting a particular spelling as well. It just seemed awkward the manner in which he abruptly corrected the foreign interviewer. Regardless, assuming "Obs'tweedle" is

correct it could be traditional spelling was altered to ensure proper pronounciation...just as "Lead Zeppelin" was changed to "Led Zeppelin".

[widget]

Steve, I found this correspondence from Bill Bonham in the letters column of the December 2007 issue of Brum Beat:

"I'm so happy to have found your page. I now live in Anaheim, California but was raised as a kid at the "Three Men In A Boat" pub in Walsall where I remember all these great bands. I played with Robert Plant in a band called "Obs-Tweedle" and Ace Kefford in another "Ace Kefford Stand" as well as in a band called Spread Eagle. I also played for "Sight And Sound" in the early 70s as well as the Terry Reid Band. I was and still am a keyboard player.

It has been such a long time, but Obs-Tweedle actually started when Tommy Burton left. Mac Bailey and the bass player at that time formed a group with another drummer called "The Answer" I also joined. We actually played in Casablanca and Germany where we changed guitarist to a guy from Scotland. I know we changed personnel a few times and when Robert Plant joined, my father who ran the Three Men In A Boat Pub in Walsall suggested "Obs-Tweedle". That was the band that Jimmy Page and Peter Grant came to see at Walsall College and Robert went to what was then "The Yardbirds" and I joined Terry Reid. When I left Reid, Ace Kefford had just abandoned "The Stand" though Ace and myself did play as the Ace Kefford Stand. Also as Kefford-Bonham and when we got a drummer, we changed our name to "Spread Eagle". We broke up around 1970.

Thank You - Bill Bonham."

So we've established so far it wasn't Robert's band and it was Bill Bonham's father who came up with the name, not any of the band members. Note the spelling though. It's with a hyphen not an apostrophe. So what does Obs-Tweedle mean? Obs is sometimes used as a standard dictionary shortening of "obscure". I've found one dictionary mention of tweedle:

–verb (used without object)

to produce high-pitched, modulated sounds, as a singer, bird, or musical instrument.

–verb (used with object)

to lure by or as by music: The Pied Piper tweedled the children into following him.

Maybe Obs-Tweedle thus means "Obscure sound"?

Meg

I suspect that could well be his intent and I don't want to take it too far and assume he was asserting a particular spelling as well. It just seemed awkward the manner in which he abruptly corrected the foreign interviewer. Regardless, assuming "Obs'tweedle" is

correct it could be traditional spelling was altered to ensure proper pronounciation...just as "Lead Zeppelin" was changed to "Led Zeppelin".

[eagle87]

Yallah originated within the Arabic language, but is also spoken amongst Hebrews

(it's meaning is "go") and Moroccans (loosely translated as "come on!" or "let's go!").

Robert undoubtedly became familiar with it during his many excursions to Morocco.

Nice. That's the information that I was looking for...

I suspect that could well be his intent and I don't want to take it too far and assume he was asserting a particular spelling as well. It just seemed awkward the manner in which he abruptly corrected the foreign interviewer. Regardless, assuming "Obs'tweedle" is

correct it could be traditional spelling was altered to ensure proper pronounciation...just as "Lead Zeppelin" was changed to "Led Zeppelin".

So the pronounciation for Led is the same in English than in Spanish?

[Aquamarine]

Steve, I found this correspondence from Bill Bonham in the letters column of the December 2007 issue of Brum Beat:

"I'm so happy to have found your page. I now live in Anaheim, California but was raised as a kid at the "Three Men In A Boat" pub in Walsall where I remember all these great bands. I played with Robert Plant in a band called "Obs-Tweedle" and Ace Kefford in another "Ace Kefford Stand" as well as in a band called Spread Eagle. I also played for "Sight And Sound" in the early 70s as well as the Terry Reid Band. I was and still am a keyboard player.

It has been such a long time, but Obs-Tweedle actually started when Tommy Burton left. Mac Bailey and the bass player at that time formed a group with another drummer called "The Answer" I also joined. We actually played in Casablanca and Germany where we changed guitarist to a guy from Scotland. I know we changed personnel a few times and when Robert Plant joined, my father who ran the Three Men In A Boat Pub in Walsall suggested "Obs-Tweedle". That was the band that Jimmy Page and Peter Grant came to see at Walsall College and Robert went to what was then "The Yardbirds" and I joined Terry Reid. When I left Reid, Ace Kefford had just abandoned "The Stand" though Ace and myself did play as the Ace Kefford Stand. Also as Kefford-Bonham and when we got a drummer, we changed our name to "Spread Eagle". We broke up around 1970.

Thank You - Bill Bonham."

So we've established so far it wasn't Robert's band and it was Bill Bonham's father who came up with the name, not any of the band members. Note the spelling though. It's with a hyphen not an apostrophe. So what does Obs-Tweedle mean? Obs is sometimes used as a standard dictionary shortening of "obscure". I've found one dictionary mention of tweedle:

–verb (used without object)

to produce high-pitched, modulated sounds, as a singer, bird, or musical instrument.

–verb (used with object)

to lure by or as by music: The Pied Piper tweedled the children into following him.

Maybe Obs-Tweedle thus means "Obscure sound"?

Meg

So the name essentially doesn't have anything to do with hobbits, which is a relief as I've read LOTR numerous times and couldn't place the name.

Also, this was the period when many bands were using names that were essentially nonsense syllables, or had only some sort of private meaning. In other words, they chose the name just because the word(s) sounded cool.

Edit for speling.

Edited August 8, 2008 by Aquamarine

[swandown]

Maybe Obs-Tweedle thus means "Obscure sound"?

Keep digging, you're on the right track.

[widget]

So the name essentially doesn't have anything to do with hobbits, which is a relief as I've read LOTR numerous times and couldn't place the name.

Which it means once more just about every book and magazine article on Led Zeppelin is incorrect, including an Oxford University guide on Tolkien.

Meg

Edited August 9, 2008 by Meg Ireland

[widget]

Keep digging, you're on the right track.

Well if it was named by a publican in a working class part of Walsall, you can imagine what he's alluding to

[SteveAJones]

Steve, I found this correspondence from Bill Bonham in the letters column of the December 2007 issue of Brum Beat:

(edit)

So we've established so far it wasn't Robert's band and it was Bill Bonham's father who came up with the name, not any of the band members. Note the spelling though. It's with a hyphen not an apostrophe. So what does Obs-Tweedle mean? Obs is sometimes used as a standard dictionary shortening of "obscure". I've found one dictionary mention of tweedle:

–verb (used without object)

to produce high-pitched, modulated sounds, as a singer, bird, or musical instrument.

–verb (used with object)

to lure by or as by music: The Pied Piper tweedled the children into following him.

Maybe Obs-Tweedle thus means "Obscure sound"?

Meg

Absolutely splendid contribution! Roaring applause and a standing ovation for you, Meg.

[SteveAJones]

So the pronounciation for Led is the same in English than in Spanish?

Well, last time I was in Spain it seemed to me it was. Regardless, Peter Grant was primarily concerned Lead would be mispronounced as lead ("as in lead you down the garden path) in the American market, to a lesser degree in the UK, not elsewhere.

[MadScreamingGallery]

Pop Proms at the Royal Albert Hall, Sunday June 29, 1969. Members of Blodwyn Pig and the Liverpool Scene join Led Zeppelin on stage for the encore of "Long Tall Sally". The objects on the stage floor are flowers that were thrown there by members of the audience.

Meg

Meg, thanks so much for the information on that photo. From the looks of Robert and Jimmy, I thought it might be '69 but beyond that, I had no idea. I like that the audience threw flowers at them.

[Medhb]

Megster! You are an awesome breath of fresh air! You have so much knowledge to share in a place where almost everything you can think of that is Zep related has been discussed by many knowledgable people! Thanks for joining our group!!

[widget]

Megster! You are an awesome breath of fresh air! You have so much knowledge to share in a place where almost everything you can think of that is Zep related has been discussed by many knowledgable people! Thanks for joining our group!!

I don't know as much as many others here and don't claim to.

[Aquamarine]

The fact you don't claim to is refreshing in itself.

Edited for speling AGAIN.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Aquamarine

[Medhb]

The fact you don't claim to is refreshing in itself.

Edited for speling AGAIN.

Ditto

[lynn]

Edit: Does anyone know if there are variants to the pronunciation of the word "Hobbits" in Tolkien's Elvish Middle Earth Languages?

I ask because in the July 4 1998 interview to which I referred earlier the interviewer pronounces the word Hobbstweedle as "Hahbbstweedle" (the "H" is heard) and Robert immediately interjects with a corrective pronunciation of "Awhbstweedle" (the "H", if any, is silent). So there was a distinct difference in vocal inflection.

What I am getting at is the possibility Robert was correcting the pronunciation of the

band name as opposed to the spelling? Evster's suggestion is compelling enough to

merit a reconsideration of the original exchange between the interviewer and Robert.

However, bear in mind that newspaper ad from thirty years prior ("Obs' tweedle").

Hi all,

Regarding this discussion I looked at the liner notes of a booklet that accompanied the CD, "Sixty Six to Timbuktu" which were written by Robert. He writes........I persuaded Alexis Korner to hire me for a spell of interesting gigs. Alexis' encouragement was invaluable. His family gave me a home away from home. "Operator" was one of two cuts recorded together with the excellent Steve Miller on piano in London 1968. Simultaneously I was working with a Buffalo Springfield clone band OBSTWEEDLE when Jimmy Page, Peter Grant and Chris Dreja came to check me out one night in a empty venue in Birmingham.

[SteveAJones]

Hi all,

Regarding this discussion I looked at the liner notes of a booklet that accompanied the CD, "Sixty Six to Timbuktu" which were written by Robert. He writes........I persuaded Alexis Korner to hire me for a spell of interesting gigs. Alexis' encouragement was invaluable. His family gave me a home away from home. "Operator" was one of two cuts recorded together with the excellent Steve Miller on piano in London 1968. Simultaneously I was working with a Buffalo Springfield clone band OBSTWEEDLE when Jimmy Page, Peter Grant and Chris Dreja came to check me out one night in a empty venue in Birmingham.

I'll be damned, so we have more written confirmation in addition to verbal confirmation.

The only remaining point of contention concerns use of a hypen, an apostrophe or not.

Way to go, Lynn!

[lynn]

I'll be damned, so we have more written confirmation in addition to verbal confirmation.

The only remaining point of contention concerns use of a hypen, an apostrophe or not.

Way to go, Lynn!

Aw, thanks Steve.

Considering that by 3PM on any given day I couldn't tell you what I had for breakfast that morning.......I'm amazed I remembered reading that when I first got the CD, I bought it probably 2 years ago!

Anyway, I typed it as it was written by RP, no hyphen or apostrophe.

[Cecil.]

Aw, thanks Steve.

Considering that by 3PM on any given day I couldn't tell you what I had for breakfast that morning.......I'm amazed I remembered reading that when I first got the CD, I bought it probably 2 years ago!

Anyway, I typed it as it was written by RP, no hyphen or apostrophe.

Hope you are not Lynn Truss, I was asked if Led Zeppelin have a Database,Do they?

[SteveAJones]

Hope you are not Lynn Truss, I was asked if Led Zeppelin have a Database,Do they?

They have their official timeline on this site, if that's what you mean.