Zeppelin Mysteries Hosted by Steve A. Jones

[Pat71]

"St Tristan's Sword"??!!! I don't think so Steve...

[SteveAJones]

"St Tristan's Sword"??!!! I don't think so Steve...

Nah, your right. Underlying Christian theme doesn't work for a pagan album. I don't think either one of these tracks exist. It's just a Black Dog chasing it's own tail is what it is.

[fsmith9095]

I'm inclined to believe it may be wishful thinking too. But it coming from Dave and in print leads me to think there may be more to it. Lost in Space sounds like it ould have been a working title for a track that was later discarded or re-titled.

But now that I think of it,I seem to recall a quote from Robert about "Lost in Space" too. I'll have to check my notes. Or we could just contact Dave and ask him about it.

The game is afoot !

BTW,Steve; Would you be the same Steve Jones who's been compiling the comprehensive Interview set with Nech and I ? Or is that another Steve Jones ?

[SteveAJones]

I'm inclined to believe it may be wishful thinking too. But it coming from Dave and in print leads me to think there may be more to it. Lost in Space sounds like it ould have been a working title for a track that was later discarded or re-titled.

BTW, Would you be the same Steve Jones who's been compiling the comprehensive interview set

Dave's a terrific guy and second to none as a contributor to Led Zeppelin's legacy but

there are small, relatively insignificant discrepancies to be found in some editions of his books. There are discrepancies to be found in nearly all printed materials concerning rock music because of the manner in which the music was created and in how books are published.

Quick example: for years a debate raged over if Led Zeppelin was ever BILLED as The New Yardbirds. Books were published based upon what was known to be the truth at the time. Over the intervening years, promo materials were discovered which changed

the outcome of the debate. It's no knock against against the authors of those books that those books subsequently contain small discrepancies.

You've heard the saying "the power of the written word". There's a lot of truth behind that, but a book about rock music cannot necessarily convey absolute truth once it is published. This is why new and revised editions follow. Anyone who's endeavored to write or collaborated on a book about anything knows what I'm talking about.

Edit: Yes, I made my mastertapes available for the interview compilation project.

Edited December 29, 2007 by SteveAJones

[fsmith9095]

Dave's a terrific guy and second to none as a contributor to Led Zeppelin's legacy but

there are small, relatively insignificant discrepancies to be found in some editions of his books. There are discrepancies to be found in nearly all printed materials concerning rock music because of the manner in which the music was created and in how books are published.

Quick example: for years a debate raged over if Led Zeppelin was ever BILLED as The New Yardbirds. Books were published based upon what was known to be the truth at the time. Over the intervening years, promo materials were discovered which changed

the outcome of the debate. It's no knock against against the authors of those books that those books subsequently contain small discrepancies.

You've heard the saying "the power of the written word". There's a lot of truth behind that, but a book about rock music cannot necessarily convey absolute truth once it is published. This is why new and revised editions follow. Anyone who's endeavored to write or collaborated on a book about anything knows what I'm talking about.

Edit: Yes, I made my mastertapes available for the interview compilation project.

Sure, I've noticed discrepancies in the books out there;including Dave's. However,I'm perplexed as to why he would insert 2 specific song titles in his book and attribute them to the fourth album. I mean,those titles apparently are not random and must have come from somewhere. Dave is not beyond making a mistake and it does seem odd that his is the ONLY reference to these supposed "lost" tracks. But I'm thinking that there may be something worth pursuing.

"St. Tristan's Sword" certainly seems like a Plant written title to me.

Also hoping our interview project sees the light of day some time soon. There must be well over 100 seperate interviews between your contribution,Nech's stuff and mine.

[swandown]

Which Dave Lewis book ?? and is Ross halfin a bit of a joker then ???

"St. Tristan's Sword" is originally mentioned in "The Concert File". It's listed as having been recorded c. 1970 and considered for the 4th album. Personally, the song title doesn't sound to me like something Plant would have written lyrics for. I have wondered if the song was actually the unreleased "all piano piece" that Jimmy mentioned in a 1970 interview.

"Lost In Space" was first mentioned by Ross Halfin in his 11/23/04 diary entry:

"Jimmy Page rang this morning telling me he's found a load of outtakes including a song with John Paul Jones singing, called 'Lost In Space'..."

Now, maybe Ross was just joking; maybe he wasn't. But the song was also mentioned in (I think) the re-print of "The Concert File" (or was it another Dave Lewis Book??), where it was listed as a "Physical Graffiti" outtake.

[leddy]

"St. Tristan's Sword" is originally mentioned in "The Concert File". It's listed as having been recorded c. 1970 and considered for the 4th album. Personally, the song title doesn't sound to me like something Plant would have written lyrics for. I have wondered if the song was actually the unreleased "all piano piece" that Jimmy mentioned in a 1970 interview.

"Lost In Space" was first mentioned by Ross Halfin in his 11/23/04 diary entry:

"Jimmy Page rang this morning telling me he's found a load of outtakes including a song with John Paul Jones singing, called 'Lost In Space'..."

Now, maybe Ross was just joking; maybe he wasn't. But the song was also mentioned in (I think) the re-print of "The Concert File" (or was it another Dave Lewis Book??), where it was listed as a "Physical Graffiti" outtake.

Thanks I have that book, on the St Tristans Sword bit I think it would been rt up Plants street

Cheers

[The Baroness Von Zeppelin]

Could the two titles in question be the working titles for songs that were later released under other names? Or the original versions of songs that were quite different in their finished (released) forms?

[MrZoSo]

Jimmy Page & Charlotte Martin, Montreal, 1970. More information to follow.

As requested by Steve A. Jones.

[SteveAJones]

Jimmy Page & Charlotte Martin, Montreal, 1970. More information to follow.

As requested by Steve A. Jones.

It's said that a picture often speaks a thousand words. Take a good look at this one

submitted to me by Horselunges and posted to the board by Mr. Zoso:

Jimmy Page and his companion Charlotte Martin upon arrival, Dorval Airport in Montreal. They look so pissed off! Here's why:

The April 18th 1970 edition of The Montreal Gazette reported Led Zeppelin departed Minneapolis for Montreal at 6am the day of the show. They transited Milwaukee before arriving in Toronto, where they encountered a very frustrating delay to clear customs.

Ultimately, they arrived in Montreal frazzled, with a show to perform that same night!

Another interesting mystery concerning Montreal 1970 is they actually returned a couple days after their Montreal Forum concert. Jimmy went browsing thru the antique district looking for a Tiffany lamp on April 15th.

More on this submitted to me from Grandmeaulne:

There is indeed an antique shopping district just a few blocks south of the old Montreal Forum. It's located on Notre-Dame street, roughly between Atwater and Guy streets.

I kick myself for throwing out my older-brother's copy of a French-language weekly entertainment paper. He attended the concert and it covered the 1970 concert straight from the moment the band landed at the Dorval airport (with pictures of the band in the arrival area) to gossips about what they did and where they went. And there was a pic of Jimmy with Charlotte waiting for their luggage!

I also remember the story because it detailed how the concert was a marketing break-through for the promoter, Donald K. Donald. Back then (and still today, to a much lesser degree) the city of Montreal was divided into two hermeticaly closed communities: English and French. While French Canadians bought records, they rarely attended concerts at the Forum (located in the English part of town) with marketing limited to the English-language press and radio. But the reviewer wrote that for once, French-Canadians did attend the show en-masse, which probably led to its record attendance for a rock concert.

I think the paper was Echo-Vedette. It still exists today as a sort of star-oriented supermarket tabloid. I'm tempted to convince the publisher to dig into his archives for that copy.

Steve, I just want to thank you for your contributions on this forum. It's good to have a devoted connaisseur who hasn't moved to a more specialized board.

Edited December 30, 2007 by SteveAJones

[fsmith9095]

Could the two titles in question be the working titles for songs that were later released under other names? Or the original versions of songs that were quite different in their finished (released) forms?

[Krish]

Lost in Space was an impromptu jam session with Page, Jones & Bonzo messing around with Jeff Beck's Starcycle, and St Tristan's Sword morphed into No Quarter, I think.

K

[SteveAJones]

Lost in Space was an impromptu jam session with Page, Jones & Bonzo messing around with Jeff Beck's Starcycle, and St Tristan's Sword morphed into No Quarter, I think.

K

[fsmith9095]

You sound quite convinced in the first instance and somewhat certain in the second.

What makes you say so, in either case?

Ditto to Steve's comment. Interesting comments and quite plausible. What makes you certain that St Tristan's Sword morphed in to No Quarter and what happened to the Starcycle/Lost in Space jam ?

I should say,what makes you think St Tristan's Sword morphed in to No Quarter ?

Edited December 31, 2007 by fsmith9095

[swandown]

Lost in Space was an impromptu jam session with Page, Jones & Bonzo messing around with Jeff Beck's Starcycle

"Star Cycle" was released in June 1980, 10 years after the date associated with "Lost In Space" and long after the last known Zep studio session. Any chance you could provide a source to bolster your claim?

Thanks.

[Krish]

I have no sources for those comments, it's just what I was thinking based on the song titles that someone else posted on this same thread a few pages back. I'm sorry if I confused anyone but something like Lost in Space seems like 'lost in a jam' of some sorts b/c I can't imagine Zep writing lyrics to a song named after a television show (like many metal bands do these days), and St Tristan's sword while I know Plant likes the Lord or the Rings and perhaps the fantasy genre, I think that when Plant writes in that mindset he's not so obvious, that genre is more subltely referenced in his work or morphed altogether - eg., taking the Misty Mountains from LOTR and writing a song called Misty Mountain Hop is an example of morphing to me. Just my thoughts. K

[mos6507]

Here are some more questions for the masters...

Could someone detail how Coda was pieced together?

Maybe this is in the liner notes of the current release, but I've only heard about this here and there.

I know the three songs from the ITTOD sessions were originally intended for an extra EP so I'm assuming those were already complete.

Was Walter's Walk "the slog" or Slush or whatever the lost track was from the Houses sessions?

Robert had to record a vocal track to Walter's Walk in 1982, right?

I'm also assuming that Jimmy added guitar overdubs here and there, like the "suboctavider" portion of We're Gonna Groove? Or maybe also the solo?

Did JPJ have anything to do with any of this?

Also, does anyone know exactly why 'Baby Come On Home' wasn't included on LZ I? Was it a running time issue? Why do you think it wasn't put onto Coda originally? How could it have been completely forgotten all that time?

[sam.e138]

Many thanks for that contribution to the thread. Clearly, this mystery is solved.

You're welcome! Damn interesting thread.

I have a little query meself. Years back when I was getting into seriously listening to Zep a friend gave me a tape of I & II, the a side "Led Zeppelin I" finished at what you could call the 'end' of "How Many More Times" immediately preceding Robert's little moan into the "Oh Rosie/The Hunter" section of the track. The tape me mate gave me was duped from a cassette copy of LZ I he had borrowed from somewhere and my tape had room to spare so my question is - is this a 'common' mispressing on cassette or was my boy just unfotunate enough to pick up a defective original?

PS The 2003 'special' issue of Q magazine is well worth hunting down as is the 2005 Photo special they did on LZ also. The magazine itself's pretty crap these days but when they do these single artist specials they're usually worth nabbing. And no you can't have mine's.

Happy NY!

[SteveAJones]

You're welcome! Damn interesting thread.

I have a little query meself. Years back when I was getting into seriously listening to Zep a friend gave me a tape of I & II, the a side "Led Zeppelin I" finished at what you could call the 'end' of "How Many More Times" immediately preceding Robert's little moan into the "Oh Rosie/The Hunter" section of the track. The tape me mate gave me was duped from a cassette copy of LZ I he had borrowed from somewhere and my tape had room to spare so my question is - is this a 'common' mispressing on cassette or was my boy just unfotunate enough to pick up a defective original?

It sounds to me like something went wrong during the dubbing process, although some eight track tapes "turn over" at points different than would happen with a cassette. I

doubt he was dubbing eight-track to cassette. Enough said on this one I think.

[Joelmon]

^ On the original vinyl jackets, 'How Many More Times' had a listed running time of 3m30sec. and it was actually about 8m30sec. Maybe the cassette dubbers saw that and just ended it at that !

[swandown]

Could someone detail how Coda was pieced together?

I'm not sure what they were thinking. The 3 songs from 1978 were basically complete, along with "Bonzo's Montreux" and "Poor Tom". But I have no explanation for Jimmy's decision to overdub "Walter's Walk" and the Royal Albert Hall recording of "We're Gonna Groove". It would have made more sense to use "Hey Hey What Can I Do" or one of the BBC recordings, but maybe he felt that he didn't want to "cheat" the fans by releasing songs that were already publicly available?

Was Walter's Walk "the slog" or Slush or whatever the lost track was from the Houses sessions?

No. "Slush" was most likely "The Rain Song" or TSRTS. And "The Slog" was just a made-up bootleg title.

Robert had to record a vocal track to Walter's Walk in 1982, right?

Yes.

Did JPJ have anything to do with any of this?

I don't know.

Also, does anyone know exactly why 'Baby Come On Home' wasn't included on LZ I? Was it a running time issue? Why do you think it wasn't put onto Coda originally? How could it have been completely forgotten all that time?

I think it was left off for 3 reasons:

1. it was so different from the tone of the rest of the album. Much more soulful. I think they were concerned about being compared to Vanilla Fudge.

2. it has the least-prominent guitar part of all the songs from the 1st album sessions

3. the writing credit. They knew that they wouldn't be able to get away with crediting themselves for the song (since the original was just 3 1/2 years old). And they didn't want to share credit.

As for why it was forgotten......supposedly the master tape was lost until it surfaced in an Olympic Studios garbage can c. 1991. I guess everyone had just forgotten about the song (no one ever mentioned it in any interview prior to 1993), which is a shame because IMO it's one of the best songs they ever recorded.

Edited January 1, 2008 by swandown

[supraphonic]

Welcome to my thread, won't you come inside. Miracles may happen, every now & again.

This thread is going to be about UNSOLVED LED ZEPPELIN MYSTERIES.

I am the thread starter and these are my guidelines:

1. Stay on topic. If your post doesn't pertain to an Unsolved Led Zeppelin Mystery

you will be placed on ignore.

2. Anyone can post what THEY believe to be an Unsolved Led Zeppelin Mystery, or

respond to one already posted. If you make a claim that solves a mystery be prepared to SUBSTANTIATE IT (news article, photo, credentials, etc).

3. NO BLACK MAGIC / BACKWARDS MASKING posts. I WILL ignore you.

Enjoy the thread! Here's hoping we can all solve a mystery or two together.

mr.jones what can you tell us about studio outtakes that are mysteriously there but cant be heard?

[SteveAJones]

mr.jones what can you tell us about studio outtakes that are mysteriously there but cant be heard?

Well, my original reply seems to have been deleted by the mods so all I'll say is surf the

net. They're out there.

[MadScreamingGallery]

I made a statement in the muscle car thread that I seemed to remember John Bonham purchased vehicles on one of the band's trips to the U.S. I can't remember if it was during one of their tours or when they were here for the Swan Song launch. I don't have any more information other than what I remembered hearing at the time.

Questions:

1. When, where, and what did he purchase? (type, make, model, year)

2. I seem to recall Mr. Grant went with him to make the purchases. Is that true?

3. How large a collection did John have?

3. Are the vehicles still in the Bonham family?

Thanks.

[croquet'n'cocaine]

I have a little query meself. Years back when I was getting into seriously listening to Zep a friend gave me a tape of I & II, the a side "Led Zeppelin I" finished at what you could call the 'end' of "How Many More Times" immediately preceding Robert's little moan into the "Oh Rosie/The Hunter" section of the track. The tape me mate gave me was duped from a cassette copy of LZ I he had borrowed from somewhere and my tape had room to spare so my question is - is this a 'common' mispressing on cassette or was my boy just unfotunate enough to pick up a defective original?

This is genuine.

When I first left home I only had a Walkman for listening to music (state-of-the-art in those days - hard to believe now) and bought everything on cassette for a many years. Naturally, I got the Zep albums and was horrified to find that the official cassette release of Led Zep I had the chopped off How Many More Times as described above. The jam section at the end is one of the major highlights of that album. Shocking. But true.

Edited January 7, 2008 by croquet'n'cocaine