Jump to content

Jimmy's mostly shoddy playing on the 77 US tour.


Levee

Recommended Posts

I just want to add that my feeling is that in 1977, the band was delivering the show they believed their audience was expecting, whereas in 1972, the audience just happened to be present while the band explored what they themselves wanted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just want to add that my feeling is that in 1977, the band was delivering the show they believed their audience was expecting, whereas in 1972, the audience just happened to be present while the band explored what they themselves wanted.

You Know . That may be the best opinion I've heard on this forum, Cheers Evester :) Ps I can give you a smile but I'm such a Kutse with the computer I don't even know how to cut and paste :D I'm serious :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You Know . That may be the best opinion I've heard on this forum, Cheers Evester :) Ps I can give you a smile but I'm such a Kutse with the computer I don't even know how to cut and paste :D I'm serious :D

Cheers Ally!! While of course it is just my feeling on the topic, I like to believe I've given it due consideration over the years, and maybe am not too far off the mark. Tomorrow will tell when the rest return to rebuke my opinion! :lol:

All the best to you! Have a good one! :wave:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cheers Ally!! While of course it is just my feeling on the topic, I like to believe I've given it due consideration over the years, and maybe am not too far off the mark. Tomorrow will tell when the rest return to rebuke my opinion! :lol:

All the best to you! Have a good one! :wave:

I don't think that'll be the case. You've hit the mark :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, his live rig did change. He was using primarily two 100w Hiwatts from Summer of 69 to December 1971. These were custom made and nowhere near stock.

jp5-sm~0.jpg

From what I've read it what some time after this he had the Marshall's modified to run KT-88 output tubes. There's one well known interview where he says he has his Marshall's modified in New York to put out 200 watts, this doesn't necessarily mean he changed the transformers, in fact that is rather unlikely given that their wasn't an after market for that type of thing at the time and the only transformers that would actually put that out would be the transformers from a Marshall Major, which wouldn't fit properly on a Superlead chassis. The consensus on all the amp building sites is that he simply had the amps re-adjusted to accommodate KT-88's which would cause a large increase in output (read: blown speakers) and give him the headroom he liked so he could change tones with his volume knob. I think around 75 he switched to the lightest strings Ernie Ball made which definitely had an impact on his tone as well.

Sorry for going so far OT.

As for '77? I'm listening to LTTE right now and I love it. I love that whole era, 75 on for me personally is the real hammer of the gods stuff, the mystery. If I could catch any show it might be LTTE or Earl's Court. I got Heavy Metal Kids a few weeks back and it is stunning! I have no idea why the official release has the Kashmir from Knebworth and not that show. Bonham is amazing!

I know and understand the evolution of Page's amps/guitars/equipment and am well aware that he used primarily the Hiwatts in 70/71. However, I was referring to the live tone that Page is known for and that is Les Paul into a Marshall plexi with some wah, phaser, and echoplex here and there. AND considering that tone that Jimmy is known for (tone established in 72/73), he did not change much for the remainder of Zeppelin.

Then there's the theory of the 200 watt Marshalls and KT88s. I think its well documented that before the 77 shows, at least one of Page's Marshall 1959 slp amps was modded to output 200 watts -- they were sent to NYC and an elctrician there, etc etc. Thats great and all -- but is he still changing much? The wattage on the same amp does not affect the overall TONE of the amp as much as you think. The guts are still the same. So is Page really changing his grear by modding his 100 watt amp to output 200 watts? No. At least not enough to make his tone SUFFER, which is what we were talking about originally.

Also, that rumor about the KT88s is just a rumor so I'm told. I read what looked to be a very authentic interview with an english music electrician who did work for Page (not Ray Thomas or any roadies) in the mid to late 70s and he was very educated and remembered a lot about what Jimmy used -- and he dismissed the KT88 theory saying Jimmy only ever had KT66 or EL34s in his amps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just want to add that my feeling is that in 1977, the band was delivering the show they believed their audience was expecting, whereas in 1972, the audience just happened to be present while the band explored what they themselves wanted.

That sums it up nicely although I think that even by 72 audience expectations were taken into account. I'd say it took the band away from what they were best at live aswell, that is looser material rather than the more regimented songs of the latter years. Not that they couldnt perform the latter well at there best but when they werent the negative effect was IMHO more obvious. I was listening to Southampton 73 early today and the sloppy playing in the opening half of the show is rather noticeble but when they move onto tracks like DAC, HMMT, CB etc it becomes much less so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay (stretches and prepares for the worst), yes, Jimmy swapped to KT88s, but his volume was just set a 4-7 depending on venue. Not speaker blowing territory when you look at his rig.

As for heroin, he (as far as I know) never shot with a needle. It was mostly coke with a little smack cut in. Clearly the set had gotten routine by '75. The magic was Bonham by then. He was the beating heart. The improv was gone for the most part. Tight but loose, yes, but the song didn't remain the same. People always want to blame it on the drugs. But it wasn't the drugs. At least not then. It was the road. The lifestyle across the board took its toll. It was just too big. By '77, the groupies weren't getting the services rockstar Page was delivering in '72. It was a diet of banana daiquiries and magazine interviews. Creem magazine painted the iconic picture. But it took Karac's death to plunge Jimmy into full-on self destruction. Yeah, Jimmy was doing some smack in '77, but that's not what broke him. It was the circus around him. It was off the rails (no pun intended), not the dope. That was present yes, but only took over when there was no Zeppelin, when he was sequestered in his home wondering if his band was over. Zeppelin was a band on autopilot in '77, not a band too fucked up to play. There was so much swirling around them. Like I said, it just got so big. It became more about the show than the performance, if you can follow my meaning. The exploration of the music took a back seat, and the spectacle took over. It wasn't the drugs. That happened later.

But does that actually explain his apparent loss of dexterity, and ability to play relatively simple passages and solos? I guess I don't know, I'm asking. I'm a beginning hack of a guitarist, you more of a pro so I guess you'd know better...would the craziness of the road and poor diet account for him sounding like a beginning guitar student in a lot of shows? It just seems to me that there was more going on, but I dunno. I always point to a particular example...on my Destroyer bootleg, when Jimmy is playing The Rover intro to Sick Again, he literally sounds like a kid who JUST learned the riff, very labored and sloppy sounding, just no dexterity of fluency. Does what you described explain that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay (stretches and prepares for the worst), yes, Jimmy swapped to KT88s, but his volume was just set a 4-7 depending on venue. Not speaker blowing territory when you look at his rig.

As for heroin, he (as far as I know) never shot with a needle. It was mostly coke with a little smack cut in. Clearly the set had gotten routine by '75. The magic was Bonham by then. He was the beating heart. The improv was gone for the most part. Tight but loose, yes, but the song didn't remain the same. People always want to blame it on the drugs. But it wasn't the drugs. At least not then. It was the road. The lifestyle across the board took its toll. It was just too big. By '77, the groupies weren't getting the services rockstar Page was delivering in '72. It was a diet of banana daiquiries and magazine interviews. Creem magazine painted the iconic picture. But it took Karac's death to plunge Jimmy into full-on self destruction. Yeah, Jimmy was doing some smack in '77, but that's not what broke him. It was the circus around him. It was off the rails (no pun intended), not the dope. That was present yes, but only took over when there was no Zeppelin, when he was sequestered in his home wondering if his band was over. Zeppelin was a band on autopilot in '77, not a band too fucked up to play. There was so much swirling around them. Like I said, it just got so big. It became more about the show than the performance, if you can follow my meaning. The exploration of the music took a back seat, and the spectacle took over. It wasn't the drugs. That happened later.

Greetings all,

Evster, thanks for this post. You state just about everything I was trying to get my head around in order to respond. 1977 was just a few years before Ronnie and maybe 2 years after the Sex Pistols broke in the US. The late 70's were a truly weird time, albeit not as strange as these days. Things had changed greatly. Rock and Roll would never be the same. It had become a Behemoth, and many great talents were consumed. It was all about to be packaged and neutered. I feel so glad that JP was not another casualty , especially now after 02. All in all we are lucky that JP was still here to play in such good form just over a month ago. Something I never imagined would happen.

Regards-Tralf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm on the side that a lot of Jimmy's playing in '77 sucked compared to past tours...he was way sloppy this tour and it was the first tour where I cringed at some of his solos...still he had A LOT of great moments on this tour. It's a shame becuase Bonzo/JPJ were sky high in '77 (Bonzo was just sick on drums) and Jimmy was going downhill and never really returned to his earlier days....yes, he still blows the doors off most guitarists but up to '73 (maybe '75 but he had the broken finger thing going), no one could touch him....he lost some speed due to his addictions and you can't get that back!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that people started to miss the fire that the band had on their first tours when they were ripping it up on songs like We're Gonna Groove The Ocean & Immigrant song. The band started to go in a different direction with the epics. They were great set lists but were missing the fire on some nights when Jimmy's playing was off and it showed, He had to try to fill in for the overdubed guitar parts, and when he had a good night they were a better band its that simple!! I love all of the epic Zeppelin tunes but when the band started to play 10 of them in a row night after night and went away from some of the shorter tunes it made them darker than they really were. There is a lot of fun & humor in alot of the early stuff they did. I think they tried to get this back on the 80 tour by cutting out the long solos and playing songs like Hot Dog but Jimmy's playing just suffered to much from his lifestyle some nights. There is no way he played guitar as much as he did when he was younger on his days away from the stage and he never got that fast riffing back. It shows up on alot of concert boots from 75-80. 77 Seattle comes to mind, some of his playing is just sloppy. The guitar solo is a mess!! But other nights in 77 he was pretty good so there you go !! Other than a real early 69 or 71 show this to me would be the tour I would have wanted to see. I also think he was better on the 1980 tour than we think, alot of the shows he sounds great but his tone changed to much at this point. Way to bright on some tunes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anybody who beats up on Jimi should be burned. nah just brutally beaten. He is an amazing guitarist and he deserves a big big statue of himself or a shiny medal from the queen

Agreed, Jimmy is a prince, although I think people feel a lingering disappointment over what could have been. Here is how I see it.

1. The songs became longer and more difficult to play for a three-piece (even with the incomparable John Paul Jones who is really equivalent to 2 strictly human musicians)

2. The focus of the band's live show began to shift away from the music to the larger spectacle - lasers, smoke bombs, satin suits, storm trooper get-ups, video screens, 45 minute solos.

3. The venues started shifting from halls to massive stadiums and outdoor festivals - places with questionable acoustics that don't necessarily encourage on stage intimacy. Also, sound reinforcement technology at this time was not entirely up to the task of dealing with a band of Zeppelin's scale.

4. Something changed about Jimmy's gear - we may never know exactly what - but his tone becomes very unforgiving, less compressed and cleaner. A wall of overdubbed guitars that are minimally distorted can sound huge, a single minimally distorted guitar sounds thin in a hard rock context no matter how high you crank it. JPJ also started using some different gear and playing with a pick to keep up with the more challenging songs - I am a fan of the old "round" sound...

5. If you look at the evolution of Jimmy's posture, the guitar strap gets looser every tour until 77. No one can play flawlessly with a guitar riding your ankles. Also, Jimmy's on stage theatrics get more elaborate, dancing, posturing, wild hand gestures. Hendrix's playing also suffered when the impulse to entertain started to prevail over the impulse to make music, the famous Band of Gypsies set was a direct response to this criticism.

6. Stress, ego, and drugs - this goes without saying, coupled with Jimmy Page being a rather unusual and slightly fragile individual. Think about it, he weighed about 115 pounds on a 6 foot frame - he was not what you would call a "healthy addict " like Iggy Pop or Keith Richards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6. Stress, ego, and drugs - this goes without saying, coupled with Jimmy Page being a rather unusual and slightly fragile individual. Think about it, he weighed about 115 pounds on a 6 foot frame - he was not what you would call a "healthy addict " like Iggy Pop or Keith Richards.

There is a paragraph in Hammer of the Gods that I will always remember where it talks about how Jimmy went through a phase on tour where he was eating nothing but an occasional small bag of french fries. It's one anecdote that I can believe. He really started to waste away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Well said Dexter, lot of good points.

Here's a question about the guitar tone/soundboard thing. If Page's weak-sounding tone in '77 was due to the fact that soundboards don't give an accurate picture of what it sounded like live, then why does his guitar sound great on all the '73 soundboards?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good post Levee. I'm all for musical discussion and nothing wrong with comparing shows, versions of songs etc. but it just seems like there's an awful lot of quick to criticise comments not just with Jimmy and the 77 tour, but the endless "oh Robert's voice sucked after 75" and the 02 show was this or that. Drugs or not, they're human and humans have off nights. As you said, you can't make blanket statements becuase of a few rough patches. Robert once said in regards to touring (this was back in 88) that it can often take a good 10 shows before they really gelled.

As the famous expression goes, Zep were tight but loose and that's what makes them so special. You never know what will be and even those moments that may not have worked, I dunno, somehow in the larger picture, aren't so bad.

It's like , just be grateful, ya know. Not everyone has an opportunity to see the Zeppelin. Sure do miss Bonzo. But, how bout dat Jason. Peace out

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...
The two biggest WARTS of the '77 tour were:

The drum solo segment

the "guitar solo" segment

Now Jimi may have been smacked out at various times during the '77 tour but it was these ridiculous mind-numbing solos/segments that were utterly and entirely UNECESSARY!

Zep had the chance to play NEW MATERIAL. And all they attempted was Ten Years Gone, NFBM, a folk song from the 2nd album and what else?

The '77 tour would have really kicked ass if the band had bothered to try out tunes like, In your life and a few others from Presence. What about Wanton Song?? There are so many other cool riffs and tunes that Page composed and the band never bothered to try them live. It's just a shame.

Bonham was no better a drummer in '77 than he was in '75 or prior to that. Page was no better a guitarist in '77 than in '75 (and in '77 he was hampered by a smack addiction).

So we get the boring drum solo from Bonham and the obnoxious sounding guitar sound theatrics of Page (and in some audience tapes you can hear the crowd getting restless for more music and less guitar BS from Page).

If the band had shelved both solos and instead added at least THREE new songs from either Presence or PG, '77 would have absolutely been a PRIMO year for live zep.

Instead, what we really get is LA '77 (truly the best and most inspired of the entire tour, Cleveland, April 28 comes a close second) and the rest of the tour which is OK overall, but falls short because of those obnoxious solo segments and just not enouch new material performed.

Sorry, it's the truth. My truth anyway. :-)

You have some serious issues with your post. The song is not "In Your Life" it's "For Your Life", the "folk" song (I'm assuming you're talking about "The Battle Of Evermore" was from the 4th album.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
Ugh. Friends and foes I'm really getting tired of these comments about the 77 tour because of Jimmys "condition" and how the tour was not up to par with the others.

I've tried to answer politely before that you can't judge an entire tour based on your boot collection, I've never wanted to use the "I was there and you were not card" But I'm using it. I saw them live two nights in Cincy in 77 and the shows and Jimmy were outstanding. And no I wasn't high or drunk, I'm not that stupid to see Zep "impaired".

Was Jimmy sub par on certain nights? Absolutely, but I'm not going to throw the entire tour away because of a few shows, yes that's right, a few shows.

As far as I'm concerned the 77 tour ranks very high , the power, raw energy and probably the best set list of any tour.

So please stop judging Jimmy on whatever boots you own, and I'm sure as hell not going to apologize for being there.

How's it going "Levee?" I know how you feel since I did attend two LED ZEPPELIN concerts in 1977. I attended the L.A. Forum show on 23 June 1977 and the Oakland show one month later on 23 July 1977. The L.A. Forum show, in my opinion, was one of the GREATEST shows that LED ZEPPELIN ever performed live on stage. While on the other hand, the Oakland show on 23 July 1977 was not one of their greatest shows ever. Matter of fact, the Oakland show was worse than the Seattle show on 17 July 1977. You can really clearly see the wear and tear on the faces of both Jimmy and Bonzo in the photographs during the Oakland shows. With everything that I have read here on the forum, I'm more inclined to say that all ZEPPELIN shows were great even when they had bad days. Then again, ZEPPELIN was the GREATEST LIVE BAND ON EARTH even when they had bad days. In other words, ZEPPELIN'S bad days were still better and greater than many other band's best days. ROCK ON!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How's it going "Levee?" I know how you feel since I did attend two LED ZEPPELIN concerts in 1977. I attended the L.A. Forum show on 23 June 1977 and the Oakland show one month later on 23 July 1977. The L.A. Forum show, in my opinion, was one of the GREATEST shows that LED ZEPPELIN ever performed live on stage. While on the other hand, the Oakland show on 23 July 1977 was not one of their greatest shows ever. Matter of fact, the Oakland show was worse than the Seattle show on 17 July 1977. You can really clearly see the wear and tear on the faces of both Jimmy and Bonzo in the photographs during the Oakland shows. With everything that I have read here on the forum, I'm more inclined to say that all ZEPPELIN shows were great even when they had bad days. Then again, ZEPPELIN was the GREATEST LIVE BAND ON EARTH even when they had bad days. In other words, ZEPPELIN'S bad days were still better and greater than many other band's best days. ROCK ON!

You were at the 6/23/77 show? I'd cut off my left nut just to see that concert on

videotape.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You were at the 6/23/77 show? I'd cut off my left nut just to see that concert on

videotape.

How's it going "snapper?" Yes, I was one of the few that were present at the 23 June 1977 Forum show. However, despite seeing and hearing a lot of the show, I was going through a lot of drama in my life at the concert that day. If you ever get a chance, read my "WHAT WAS THE CRAZIEST THING THAT YOU EVER DID AT A LED ZEPPELIN CONCERT" thread located on Page 5 in the Led Zeppelin Master Forum link, you will get an idea of all of the drama I was going through that day (23 June 1977) as well as one month later (23 July 1977). You will get a big kick out of it. ROCK ON!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Matter of fact, the Oakland show was worse than the Seattle show on 17 July 1977. You can really clearly see the wear and tear on the faces of both Jimmy and Bonzo in the photographs during the Oakland shows.

They bought $25,000 worth of hard drugs on Friday night at the San Francisco Hilton.

Then there was the brawl on Saturday. It was a long, ultimately wrong weekend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They bought $25,000 worth of hard drugs on Friday night at the San Francisco Hilton.

Then there was the brawl on Saturday. It was a long, ultimately wrong weekend.

How's it going "SteveAJones?" I hope all is well with you. There was definitely doom in the air that weekend (22, 23 July 1977) Steve, it was really weird. All of the drama and events that happened to me on that Friday leading up to the concert on Saturday (Before the concert even started) was one of the most unforgetable moments in my life. ROCK ON!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...