Jimmy Page the master composer of his era

[sweetjellyroll]

I am not making a stand on this point,and you may not like this topic.

But like i said the composing skills of all mentioned must account for something.

That's the point i am making.

To be adored by the masses,across generations you have to agree,is a musical acheivement.

I am not disrespecting the other 3 in the band or any other performers by putting Page on a pedestal.

But his composing skills hold him up there with the greats.Perhaps a comparison with a classical great was knaive on my part.But the masses can't be wrong.,

Nice debating with u Led

[GetTheLedOut]

I am not making a stand on this point,and you may not like this topic.

But like i said the composing skills of all mentioned must account for something.

That's the point i am making.

They do account for something, but that doesn't mean he's as good as Mozart.

To be adored by the masses,across generations you have to agree,is a musical acheivement.

No, that has nothing to do with music. It just means his music was popular.

I am not disrespecting the other 3 in the band or any other performers by putting Page on a pedestal.

As this is the first time this has come up during the thread, I guess I can't disagree with you on it, but this seems to be an unrelated thought.

But his composing skills hold him up there with the greats.Perhaps a comparison with a classical great was knaive on my part.

Page is great when you are comparing him to other rock songwriters. When you go into the classical realm, no.

But the masses can't be wrong.

They can and often are.

Nice debating with u Led

No problem, it gives me something to do for a few hours until I go out.

[Honeydripper]

Yes, Jimmy was really good at using space in the studio..........but comparing him to Mozart??? Not even close. First off, it's not like Page invented area micing techniques....in fact all he did was replicate what earlier recordings happened to do due to studios being a single room w/ very few mics. (You want a bigger sound....set up in a bigger room/pull the mic further from the instrument...it's that simple) IMO the engineers had as much to do with it as Page. IIRC, it was Eddie Kramer that was called in to save Page's poorly recorded/mixed Zep II reels. And Page certainly learned quite a bit from others during his tenure as a studio musician. And as a composer (writer) Zep was basically a cover band for the first yr+ and built many songs off of live improvs. Now as a producer (the one who has the vision and the final say as to arrangements and production/sound)...now there is where Page shined.

As a composer, I would have to say that Lennon/McCartney.....and even Brian Wilson are leaps and bounds beyond Page.

so in conclusion Page= Mozart.....nope, not Beethoven or Bach either........I'd maybe settle for Brahms.

[The Baroness Von Zeppelin]

But i dont see mozart concerts selling out arenas night after night.

They don't? Alright, so classical concerts tend to be performed mainly in opera houses, but orchestras go on tour sometimes (or do a season at one venue) and I'd be willing to bet most - possibly all - of those concerts sell out because hey, believe it or not, classical music does have a substantial following.

[GetTheLedOut]

so in conclusion Page= Mozart.....nope, not Beethoven or Bach either........I'd maybe settle for Brahms.

True, true.

[MrZoSo]

This will not be a popular opinion but, in text of composing as in comparing a single person to Mozart in the modern day.....My pick would be, Elton John. Do not laugh until you have listened to his music.

He is a brilliant composer.

[MrZoSo]

As a composer, I would have to say that Lennon/McCartney.....and even Brian Wilson are leaps and bounds beyond Page.

I strongly disagree with this comment. Pure opinion though.

While they (Beatles/Wilson) were at the top of the list for the time as composers, they are not in any fashion, leaps and bounds beyond Page in any manner. Phil Spector, was a stand out for his arrangements. (as was Buddy Holly)

Spector was envied during this period, and often imitated.

[ZoSo88]

Yes, the musical styles are worlds apart.To say it is minimalistic,maybe.

But i dont see mozart concerts selling out arenas night after night.

And i don't call 300 million album sales minimalistic.

The music holds up today as back in the 70's and probably they will still be for centuries.

Maybe this is a silly comparison,but the fever this reunion has created says it all for me.

I think some people are overestimating the complication of classical music and underestimating Zeppelin. Yes, orchstras and such have alot of instruments playing, and it is brilliant when done right, but i say Page's mastery of things like Achilles Last Stand blow that out of the water. RARELY is the most comlicated piece the most brilliant. Thats why buckethead is no Jimmy Page, and opera singers are no Robert Plant. The power this group has reached with disgusting album sales, concert attendance, and popularity speak volumes of the brilliance people are picking up. Page in the studio was beyond brilliant. He did everything from technical work, volumes, reverse echo, recording different audio sounds as recorded with bonzo's drum set at the bottom of stairwells, amps in toilet bowls, and every thing one can imagine. It puts every other rock band to shame in that respect, Zeppelin was so well constructed. As fairly as one can make the comparison or assign the title of master composer of the era...Jimmy Page is infact the man in question.

[Honeydripper]

....and if selling out arenas worldwide is the criteria for greatness......I guess Hanna Montana is the new Mozart. LOL

You have to agree though....the timing of Zep's birth....and demise were perfect. They filled a musical void in the ending of the Beatles, death of Hendrix/Joplin/others...and exited right when both the music scene would become stale and bands became carbon copies of last week's hit....that, and the introduction to the cd format. Their sales were as big in the 80's as in the 70's (ABBA was the biggest seller IN the 70's) But, yes...Zep made timeless music mainly because, IMO, they made honest music....leaving in mistakes and warts and all........all in the relm of what their blues heros had previously done. Their music made them seem approachable......wereas most of their contemporaries were either polished or publically open. The less you knew about Zep, the more you wanted to know. It's no coincidence why their fanbase are the most rumor filled/misinformed bunch in R&R.

[GetTheLedOut]

I think some people are overestimating the complication of classical music and underestimating Zeppelin. Yes, orchstras and such have alot of instruments playing, and it is brilliant when done right, but i say Page's mastery of things like Achilles Last Stand blow that out of the water.

I listen to Achilles Last Stand a lot more than I listen to classical music, but does Achilles Last Stand blow the great classical music out of the water...

No. Sorry, but there's a reason why Mozart and other great composers are considered the best ever. Again, I really am not trying to get on Page's back, because he really was great, but great within his own world, not classical music.

[ZoSo88]

I guess that's a matter of opinion. Far easier to compare rock bands even ones who genre's differ, then to compare that to classical. selling out arenas does not make you brilliant, people like Hanna Montana are fads that will die soon. The popularity and crowd size and overall album sales is on a different planet then that of the fads.

[GetTheLedOut]

I guess that's a matter of opinion. Far easier to compare rock bands even ones who genre's differ, then to compare that to classical. selling out arenas does not make you brilliant, people like Hanna Montana are fads that will die soon. The popularity and crowd size and overall album sales is on a different planet then that of the fads.

Exactly.

[Deals]

I think Page is getting way too much credit for "composing" most of the Zeppelin tracks. Lest we forget, JPJ was a major contributor to the bands songs. I personally think he was the driving force they needed. Look at his solo carreer compared to Plant and Page. JPJ and Bonzo were both melded perfectly. JPJ quotes "Bonzo was a bass player's dream". Those two laid out the loudest and tightest rythm section for Page and Plant ot just go off! Just listen for god's sake!! It's incredible. Page and Plant always took most of the spotlight simply because they were standing in front.

This is only my humble opinion.

Peace

[GetTheLedOut]

I think Page is getting way too much credit for "composing" most of the Zeppelin tracks. Lest we forget, JPJ was a major contributor to the bands songs. I personally think he was the driving force they needed. Look at his solo carreer compared to Plant and Page. JPJ and Bonzo were both melded perfectly. JPJ quotes "Bonzo was a bass player's dream". Those two laid out the loudest and tightest rythm section for Page and Plant ot just go off! Just listen for god's sake!! It's incredible. Page and Plant always took most of the spotlight simply because they were standing in front.

This is only my humble opinion.

Peace

Hell, JPJ wrote the riff to Black Dog. Bet you most fans don't know it (although on this board the users are very educated on the subject, so they probably do, especially if they're reading this post).

[achillestand]

Who is such an idiot to compare Mozart with Page? ´There is no way to compare them! For those who dislike Mozart or cklassic music, remember that they inspired many bands from the 70s.

[leddy]

Mozart is Mozart and playing and composing when he was about 6 yrs of age means in my book is a genius so was Paganini, what page offers is alot of his stuff was very original !! In contempory music Page and Zep are up there with them all, but lets get things into context here

[SteveAJones]

Look, I like Led Zeppelin more than the Beatles, but to say that Zeppelin has had a greater impact is just naive and incorrect.

That's not what I said...reread my post

[GetTheLedOut]

That's not what I said...reread my post

No I understood you the first time, my response was just worded poorly. It was meant to confirm your statement, I know you didn't think Zeppelin had a bigger social impact than the Beatles.

[danelectro]

Some people are confusing music composition with stuff like dynamics, recording techniques and having good ideas. I don't necessarily think one is better than the other but having great ideas about miking drums isn't composing. One thing to keep in mind about classical music is it is typically long pieces of music with several parts. By and large rock music is the opposite, not in every case, because it is typically centered around one or two short bits of music that repeat. Jimmy Page is a writer of riffs and a pretty decent improviser live but again most of Zep's music is riff based and built on repeating themes. That doesn't mean it isn't great but it's a long LONG way from classical. Even Zep's somewhat epic stuff like Achilles is compositionally simple compared to most classical pieces.

That said it's not comparing apples to apples, it's a tough sell trying to reason that guys like Page were as adept at composing as any of the classical greats. Rock music is often the antithesis of classical. Honestly that's the way I like it and that's why people like Yngwie Malmsteen turn me off with their mixture of classical and rock, it's too stuffy. Rock is supposed to be dirty and Zep personified that, especially Jimmy with his "loose" playing. I find it strange that someone would compare Jimmy, who often fumbled the simplest of blues moves, to a classical composer or performer. I really don't think that's what Jimmy was going for.

[Charles_Obscure]

Frank Zappa might be the 20th Century "Mozart"...

But not Page.

[GetTheLedOut]

Even Zep's somewhat epic stuff like Achilles is compositionally simple compared to most classical pieces.

That said it's not comparing apples to apples, it's a tough sell trying to reason that guys like Page were as adept at composing as any of the classical greats. Rock music is often the antithesis of classical.

I find it strange that someone would compare Jimmy, who often fumbled the simplest of blues moves, to a classical composer or performer. I really don't think that's what Jimmy was going for.

You're exactly right.

[MrZoSo]

Since it is the norm here for people to think they know what other people think, (especially what Robert thinks for some reason) I will take it upon myself to say....I think Mozart, after hearing ALS for the first time, would strongly disagree with the theory of ALS being simplistic, comparably.

[producergal]

THERE IS something I have to say ABOUT MOZART and contribute to this discussion technically and creatively.

People often cite "Mozart" having little understanding of the technical aspect of his work and how that may impact comparing Page to Mozart.

First, Mozart's "style" of composition was Baroque and what that means is that the "melody" actually tended to be based upon redundant flourishes that were not what we call today "origional". So, you will notice when you listen to Mozart....it sounds a bit like peices of scales just rising and falling. That is the Baroque style and was not meant to be as much origional as a popular song form of his era.

Thus, he died in poverty. In his time, he was not that well thought of by the close of his life.

He was a child prodigy...as a player. He could play the harpsichord blindfolded with a cloth on the keys and his sister was also similarly talented. Both had stage parents who exhibited them publically for show and income. But his skill as a composer is highly debatable in many circles, as it was in his time ! It is just that so many people talk about Mozart and repeat what they have HEARD, but it is a kind of repetition of what they hear rather than knowledge. Mozart was a popular songwriter of his time who wrote in a highly derivative style called Baroque, which means the emphasis is on those "curly" repetative flourishes that lead one to picture French women at tea wearing wigs. Baroque is not a romantic style of composition...meant to be deeply origional and expressive emotionally.

Also, COMPOSERS do NOT just write for orchestras in the number of 80 peices. THAT IS A MODERN EVOLUTION of the much much smaller orchestra composers like Mozart wrote for in his day. In his day, orchestras may have only 20 players in total-rarely more than 35. Further, ... the platform for composers always varied with quartets being most popular ! (4 strings)

Page writes for modern string quartet - employing TWO ADDITIONAL GUITAR TRACKS in most of his work. This is a production technique he is one of the fathers of actually ! Guitars 1/2 with solo. Very important --- he varies the "timbres" of the guitars so as to create the effect of electrified quartet with varying timbre and tonal presentation.

THIS IS DUE TO THE CONCOMMITANT IDEA -- that he composes with these timbres, which require that the guitar be miked and processed differently. SO, Page is a modern composer for string quartet with percussion, in the psychedelic blues style - late 20th c.

He is what we call a "Romantic" composer in that style - he helped to evolve the songform and style based upon an expressive tonality that was not limited to the traditional rock style at the time.Romantic means - deviating from set forms and emotionally self expressive in creating form.

The Beatles were similarly so - and excellent in thier use of simplicity of melodic line (and of course thier primary arranger was Sir George Martin). They were excellent harmony singers, but pre-dated Led Zeppelin and the use of 8/16 track recording, so were from a truly previous era. Creedence CLearwater Revival, displaced them on the charts fairly regularly in thier later years (in the US), and then Led Zeppelin.

I think Page is an excellent composer and instrumentalist in his own way. Achilles Last Stand is a marvelous complex work that uses sliding on the fretboard and continuos panning to make use of the "doppler effect" and in doing so Page was the first composer to fully employ some form of 'true' surround sound in his composition - productionwise on tape.

Best or better is an arguement that is so subjective in reality and often leads to tiffs. There are people who never heard Led Zeppelin. In thier mind, what is best is what is in thier "experience" and culture. It's a very subjective ground. Everyone's got a favorite and all are equal in the human value of thier opinion. I think there is a comparison between PLANT/PAGE (not just Page....someone is forgetting Plant as the composer of the MAIN MELODY LINE in many of these works) and the great modern composers. And, remember 80 peice orchestra is a newer evolution. Mozart NEVER WROTE FOR AN ORCHESTRA THAT SIZE, it's purely modern and not the primary platform for most composers then or today - which is piano and then quartet (including winds or horns).

[producergal]

I really outdo myself with the length of my post. I plead my case. I'm tired.

Still, hand it to the guy who opened this thread - he really is excited. What is life without loving something - Rock and Roll. We got to be a part of the 20th century - together.

[The Rover]

I consider this statement to be true.Listen to the acoustics thruout Zepp IV.

Who would have thought to put Bonzo's drum kit in the hallway and mount multiple mikes

up the staircase to give that incredible drum sound famously heard on When the levee breaks.

Sampled by many.

The Eastern tones on Kashmir

The incredible guitar mixes on Achilles last stand.

But most of all his incredible improvisation skills,the twists and turns thruout Dazed and confused

at the live performances,like a composer he dictated the pace and having Bonzo and Jonesy, who knew the drill,the end result was nothing short of breathtaking.

I remember Steve Tyler at Hall of fame speech saying he sat watching Dazed and Confused and Fuckin' cried.

The Mozart of the 20th Century,without doubt.

In classical composer comparasions, I usually think of Richard Wagner (pronounced 'Vaughner') when it comes to Led Zeppelin. The light and dark of a Wagner piece like "Siegfried's Funeral Music" from the Ring of the Nieblungs Opera "Gotterdammerung" comes to mind.... the dynamics of it all...

I sought out what I feel is the most inspiring version, and found it on a CBS Stereo Cassette Great Orchestral Highlights from "The Ring Of Nieblungs", The Cleveland Orchestra, George Szell conducting, from the October 1968 recordings at Severance Hall.

It's now on a SONY CD: "Wagner Without Words"

"Siegfried's Funeral Music" is also used well by Trevor Jones in the John Boorman film "EXCALIBUR". Check it out if you haven't seen it.