SunChild Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 ... Mozart was a popular songwriter of his time who wrote in a highly derivative style called Baroque, which means the emphasis is on those "curly" repetative flourishes that lead one to picture French women at tea wearing wigs. Baroque is not a romantic style of composition...meant to be deeply origional and expressive emotionally. ... is what we call a "Romantic" composer in that style - he helped to evolve the songform and style based upon an expressive tonality that was not limited to the traditional rock style at the time. Romantic means - deviating from set forms and emotionally self expressive in creating form. What a lovely post, producergal, thank you. I'm pretty ignorant about music (I know what I like), but I've thought of Jimmy's playing as Baroque, because he uses those "curly, repetitive flourishes." Sometimes not so curly, and more pile-driving. But, there's alot of derivation, too (some call in plagiarism, even... silly people). Simultaneously, the sound is a leap forward compared to the blues or early rock, as you say, deviating from set forms, and it is emotionally self-expressive for sure. Where I compare Mozart to Page (and Zeppelin, you're right, really they all contributed greatly) is, I love the music the same way. The music envelops me differently than other music, even if it may be technically more simple or what have you. In TSRTS there's a lovely dark haired woman in a white cowled top shown about 20 minutes in, who is almost hugging herself, looking at Jimmy or Robert or both with an amazed smile on her face, like she can't believe what she's seeing and hearing. She's just in love - it's a revelation and a delight. Her boyfriend smiles at her, but I don't think he has a clue what she's feeling or thinking (he may have ended up being called by the wrong name that night, heh). That's probably the look on my face sometimes when I listen to Mozart, too. Music is ineffable, after all, the best stuff can't be explained in words. Why is it that I always return to rock no matter how much I might appreciate other music intellectually? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 yeah he's good at crafting songs but the attributes mentioned in your post are of sound /recording engineering. modern composing genius title should probablly be split somewhere between jeff lynne & roy wood. don't forget about zappa and capt. beefheart. the dude in elp was good at this as well. and what about robert fripppp? so many good & unique composers of music. hard to say who's the most badassed. it's not kerry king or that dude from korn i can only say that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamG Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 I consider this statement to be true.Listen to the acoustics thruout Zepp IV. Who would have thought to put Bonzo's drum kit in the hallway and mount multiple mikes up the staircase to give that incredible drum sound famously heard on When the levee breaks. Sampled by many. The Eastern tones on Kashmir The incredible guitar mixes on Achilles last stand. But most of all his incredible improvisation skills,the twists and turns thruout Dazed and confused at the live performances,like a composer he dictated the pace and having Bonzo and Jonesy, who knew the drill,the end result was nothing short of breathtaking. I remember Steve Tyler at Hall of fame speech saying he sat watching Dazed and Confused and Fuckin' cried. The Mozart of the 20th Century,without doubt. I agree about the sound quality of Led Zeppelin records, I think the old adage 'necessity is the mother of invention', rings true. But it's not his composing that you are speaking of; it's their delivery. (although it is a combination of both) Personally I find Kashmir over rated, it's way too long and not interesting enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetTheLedOut Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axA-YxHuySQ I truly believe there isn't a single Led Zeppelin song that could not be compared to a classical composition because of the various arrangements within the songs and the multiple changes. There isn't just one break, then chorus, and break and also because there was so much improvisation. Mr. Page said it himself. There is not a single band who has been able to do this and according to Jimmy in his latest interview (2007) states, "even if they did, they didn't do it as well". While you can compare anything to anything if you desire, Zeppelin songs are not similar to classical pieces. Certain not: Good Times Bad Times Your Time Is Gonna Come Communication Breakdown Whole Lotta Love What Is And What Should Never Be The Lemon Song Heartbreaker Living Loving Maid Ramble On Bring It On Home Immigrant Song Friends Celebration Day Since I've Been Loving You Out On The Tiles Gallows Pole Tangerine That's The Way Bron-Yr-Aur Stomp Hats Off To (Roy) Harper Rock And Roll Misty Mountain Hop Four Sticks Going To California When The Levee Breaks Over The Hills And Far Away The Crunge Dancing Days D'Yer Mak'er No Quarter The Ocean Custard Pie The Rover In My Time Of Dying Houses Of The Holy Trampled Under Foot Down By The Seaside Night Flight The Wanton Song Boogie With Stu Black Country Woman Sick Again For Your Life Royal Orleans Nobody's Fault But Mine Candy Store Rock Hots On For Nowhere Tea For One In The Evening South Bound Suarez Fool In The Rain Hot Dog All My Love I'm Gonna Crawl And those are just selections limited to the main studio albums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seals Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Look, he was good, but it's a lot easier to write a five minute song than a real symphony. Frankly, I don't think the two music styles are comparable as they are built on two different kinds of ideas. I very much doubt that Jimmy Page would bother composing anything that would last less than 5 minutes, unless under duress! He started his symphony more than 40 years ago and I don't think he's finished! I am a resurrected fan and looking back over the tracks it is quite obvious that there is fluidity and passion in all that Led Zep has produced. Real music has nothing to do with style. It's fluid and creative, and takes alot of dedication. A true composer absorbes all that is around him and is not inward looking. And anyway, I very much doubt that Mozart had any time for ideas, he was to busy feeling sorry for himself! He was just in the right time at the right place. Even I can play some of his pieces and I can't even read music (and my friend only showed me once)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seals Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 I agree about the sound quality of Led Zeppelin records, I think the old adage 'necessity is the mother of invention', rings true. But it's not his composing that you are speaking of; it's their delivery. (although it is a combination of both) Personally I find Kashmir over rated, it's way too long and not interesting enough. Bloody Hell! Poor You! You don't just listen to it...you feel it. Close your eyes and they will take you there!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RjK Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 I think you have to throw John Paul Jones into the mix he is just as responsible for alot of the textures and sounds your hear on everything post Zepplin III as well as his arrangement skills are unsurpassed, just listen to the strings he brought into "The Rain Song" ...... just stunning !!!! Jimmys true genious is in his ears. His engineering skills were way ahead of their time as well (distance makes depth) was his favorite saying and nobody new how to record a rock band properly back when he wrote the book on it. He is a big fan of Les Paul who was a Great Guitarist and invented multi-track recording equipment among many other things. Anywayz yes he is a master but don't forget about Jonsey !!!! RjK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lzzoso Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 In my opinion, 100 years from now, Led Zeppelin's musical catalog will stand and pass the test of time. From Led Zeppelin I (1969) to Coda (1982), just like Mozarts music has to this day. I believe that alot of this has to do with the unprecedented production work of the one and only, Mr. Jimmy Page. I could say and have more input on this topic but I think what I have written should speak for itself. LED ZEPPELIN'S MUSIC WILL STILL SELL AND BE MORE POPULAR 100 YEARS FROM NOW THAN IT IS AT THIS VERY MOMENT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harp0 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Jimmy Page the master composer of his era? John Williams will most likely go down in history as the master composer of this era, I could be wrong but I doubt it will be Jimmy Page. I think Page will go down as the master rocker of his era though, without question. it's much more appropriate to use the word composer, when speaking of rockers to the likes of ELO, Queen, and Frank Zappa. Paul McCartney gave the composing thing a go for a while, and the response was so so. I think there is a chance that Randy Rhoads would have been a great composer had he lived. This is not to put down Jimmy Page in any way, it's just that I have never thought of him as a composer in the way that the word composer is generally thought of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huw Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Wow - talk about reviving an old thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. E. Pennypacker Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Sorry to bump this old thread, but as a lover of both Led Zeppelin and certain classical composers, I had to get a word in here. Obviously Jimmy Page is a genius. Just because his music is simpler than the classical composers doesn't mean it's of any less quality. It's only simpler because of the era he was born in. I guarantee if he had been born in the 1800's he would be mentioned in the same breath as Chopin, Brahms, Wagner, Tchaikovsky, Debussy, etc. That's not to say complexity equals quality. Quite the contrary. It takes a true genius to make something brilliant yet simple. Musical architects such as Bach and Beethoven often bore the shit out of me, while more concise composers like Chopin and Debussy touch me greatly. Having said that, it's important to remember that the very specific level of complexity in Led Zeppelin's music is intrinsic to the greatness of it. If it were any different, it wouldn't be Zep. Genius is genius, regardless of complexity or medium. Such judgements should be made on a case by case basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagefan55 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Sorry to bump this old thread, but as a lover of both Led Zeppelin and certain classical composers, I had to get a word in here. Obviously Jimmy Page is a genius. Just because his music is simpler than the classical composers doesn't mean it's of any less quality. It's only simpler because of the era he was born in. I guarentee if he had been born in the 1800's he would be mentioned in the same breath as Chopin, Brahms, Wagner, Tchaikovsky, Debussy, etc. That's not to say complexity equals quality. Quite the contrary. It takes a true genius to make something brilliant yet simple. Musical architects such as Bach and Beethoven often bore the shit out of me, while more concise composers like Chopin and Debussy touch me greatly. Having said that, it's important to remember that the very specific level of complexity in Led Zeppelin's music is intrinsic to the greatness of it. If it were any different, it wouldn't be Zep. Genius is genius, regardless of complexity or medium. Such judgements should be made on a case by case basis. Your thoughts very closely mirror my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matjaz1 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Some good points made, but it should be added, that there are basicaly really no styles, just music! You can certainly still pinpoint certain styles, atleast to a degree and we all pretty much agree what is a symphony! But it's very hard to say, if Jimmy's work is simple and sometimes it's definately very complex and the rhytm section is playing very complex patterns and Jimmy at times suggested what they should play, there are many ovedubbed guitar parts and Jimmy has proven himself in harmonising too! Robert is totally an opera singer if he wants too! And in orchestras, many isntruments don't play all the time and many play the same thing at the same time! You don't have that much going many times and in the past orchestras have been a lot smaller, even too small to effectively play Achilles last stand! It's hard too say, whether Jimmy's playing and composition is simple or not, many times it's complex, sometimes atleast because you got fast flurries of many, many, many notes and it doesn' matter how many scales he uses! What matters is what he creates, incredible cadences and riffs, icredible ideas, far beyond the blues, that have touched the hearts of millions and even if we can't completely objectively say why, the evidence for that is here!! I think Jimmy certainly is a great composer, who has at least touched the hardest compositional challenges! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabbath Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Good composer , yes. Far from the best of his era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabbath Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I kinda agree, Page was at least the Paganini of the 70's. He had more talent than anyone else overall and wrote the most effective, memorable pieces, at least in the rock/acoustic genre. That's actually funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matjaz1 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 It's nice you posted such great exampels and points! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstork Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Good composer , yes. Far from the best of his era. Okay, I'll bite. Who do you like better, Sabbath? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagefan55 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Okay, I'll bite. Who do you like better, Sabbath? Why? I'd like to hear the answer, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. E. Pennypacker Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Black Sabbath should not be mentioned in the same breath as Led Zeppelin. They are a third class act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Black Sabbath should not be mentioned in the same breath as Led Zeppelin. They are a third class act. Actually, if you take the time to listen to their compositions, they are a first class act, but Zeppelin and Sabbath are two different animals, and they each do their "thing" very well. Both bands were game changers in their respective sub genres of hard rock. Zeppelin top the cake though when it comes to overall talent and versatility; handling so many instruments "in house" without a need to bring in hired assistants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. E. Pennypacker Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Actually, if you take the time to listen to their compositions (...) I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I have. Oh, that's too bad. So, what did you think of the album Forbidden? Which of the four studio album front men did you think best suited the band? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. E. Pennypacker Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I don't know their work well enough to form an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the chase Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Black Sabbath should not be mentioned in the same breath as Led Zeppelin. They are a third class act. Nobody did from what I can see... the poster's name is Sabbath.. To me and I dare say to most... the key to great music is a simple, strong, memorable Melody.. Black Sabbath ... even at their heaviest have always been very melodic.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabbath Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Black Sabbath should not be mentioned in the same breath as Led Zeppelin. They are a third class act. I was under the impression this thread was about Page as a composer, not Zeppelin as a band composing. Zeppelin the band can't hold a candle to Black Sabbath, nor can Page to Iommi, I was thinking that would be common sense. I was actually thinking of many other superior composers from that era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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