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Jimmy Page the master composer of his era


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Ok, the fact is music, like most things, is subjective. You really cannot quantify who is a better composer because it all comes down to taste. No one can say Black Sabbath are better then Zep or vice versa and actually be able to prove it because that is impossible. I have a friend who loves the Ramones and he feels they are the pinnacle of musical achievement...who am I to argue? I am sure Tiny Tim had his groupies, again, who am I to argue?

To me the pinnacle of composition is Chopin because of the emotional content I perceive in his music. I am also in awe with what Hildegard Von Bingen did in the 12th century, Ordo Virtutum is pure magic to my ears, but that is only my opinion, it really means nothing in the greater scheme.

Zeppelin or Sabbath? Cream or milk? Who cares.

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Ofcourse he was a composer, he just didn't write many vocal melodies and lyrics, like Mccartney did!

I like vocal melodies; I like music I can hum along to. Vocal melodies weren't Zep's forte. I like a lot of their music but they're not my favorite rock band for this reason.

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Things are still objective to quite a large degree! Just the amount and complexity of ideas Zep had, Plant's voice, technical ability, ability to jam and yes even musicality, compositional ability and ability to play together and arrange, this are all very obviously better and far more present in Zep, then in Black Sabbath!

So saying Sabbath is better in those things, just because you like them more, is ridiculous!

Zep many times had strong vocal melodies, just usually not in the pop sort of way, but even that happened with things like Night flight, Tangerine, Hot dog, That's the way,....!

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complexity of ideas Zep had, Plant's voice, technical ability, ability to jam and yes even musicality, compositional ability and ability to play together and arrange, this are all very obviously better and far more present in Zep, then in Black Sabbath!.!

Objectively and Subjectively, you can't truly believe this^^^^

At least I hope not, otherwise how do you all take each other serious over here.

Lpman and disco duck very well constructed and accurate trains of thought!

And yes there is no doubt that never an artist before or since can touch the melody process, of the Beatles and Black Sabbath, the keys to intelligent song writing, not just a self indulgent mess, and in Sabbath's case true complexity with merit, taste and composition.

Old friend, don't respond, just read, for in the end I won't be a fan favorite amongst these intellectuals :)

Trying to bring a treasure in for you, fingers crossed and God Bless

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There was a funny story where Plant & Bonham went along to an early Black Sabbath gig & left because they thought it was crap (despite being mates with Sabbath).

I love both bands for different reasons, pointless fighting over who is better.

Although it was clearly Led Zeppelin *runs for cover*

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Although it was clearly Led Zeppelin *runs for cover*

Love it!

No matter how fast they ran, even to this day, they can't escape it, Plant-less looses sleep over even the mention of the mighty Sabbath.

Yet the Sab's can care less, they just roll right along creating history!

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Objectively and Subjectively, you can't truly believe this^^^^

At least I hope not, otherwise how do you all take each other serious over here.

Lpman and disco duck very well constructed and accurate trains of thought!

And yes there is no doubt that never an artist before or since can touch the melody process, of the Beatles and Black Sabbath, the keys to intelligent song writing, not just a self indulgent mess, and in Sabbath's case true complexity with merit, taste and composition.

Old friend, don't respond, just read, for in the end I won't be a fan favorite amongst these intellectuals :)

Trying to bring a treasure in for you, fingers crossed and God Bless

Nice that you once again said nothing! The only thing you did is compare the melodies of Beatles and Sabbath, which especially without proper arguments is, I'm sorry to say that, totally insane!

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And I can see you are trying to oppose me in the sytle of 'you are telling me, that your statements are absolute, so I will do the same, just for fun!'

But obviously, I have given you a lot of content, while you gave nothing! Let's put it down to one simple example! Let's call it 'what happens example!?'

Show me a Sabbath song, where even remotely as much happens music wise, as in Ten years gone, Kashmir or Achilles last stand! We won't

even talk about the content, we already did, just show me one such song! And don't say to me, it can't be objectively said!

It can be to a degree, especialy when the difference between The writ, or Megalomania and Achilles lat stand is so tremendous!

And don't say it's minimalism against Zep! I don't particulary like minimalism, but it can be so great, far better then Sabbath

and in Sabbath's case it's not a decision, they just didn't have the ideas Zep or The Beatles had and these two bands were better!

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And I can see you are trying to oppose me in the sytle of 'you are telling me, that your statements are absolute, so I will do the same, just for fun!'

But obviously, I have given you a lot of content, while you gave nothing! Let's put it down to one simple example! Let's call it 'what happens example!?'

Show me a Sabbath song, where even remotely as much happens music wise, as in Ten years gone, Kashmir or Achilles last stand! We won't

even talk about the content, we already did, just show me one such song! And don't say to me, it can't be objectively said!

It can be to a degree, especialy when the difference between The writ, or Megalomania and Achilles lat stand is so tremendous!

And don't say it's minimalism against Zep! I don't particulary like minimalism, but it can be so great, far better then Sabbath

and in Sabbath's case it's not a decision, they just didn't have the ideas Zep or The Beatles had and these two bands were better!

:yourock: I would add Rain Song to that list!

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Thanks! Yeah shure!

But this is getting pointless, because in some way, Sabatth truly are better, to him ofcourse! So it's just about enough!

Yes , Sanbath truly are , and by a significant degree , the argument to me is irrelevant , but has become very entertaining , my absolutes are just very prevalent in my listening of these particular artist , I'm not asking for you to hear it any other way then the way you perceive it.

What has struck me in a very funny way , no insult to you , is your lack of understanding of my prior 12 post , which very "clearly" says everything , but again , as with your obvious perception of what you describe in your fondness for Zeppelin , your not actually hearing what is being said.

Your argument is based on your perception of what you believe to be talent , great song writing and musicianship , and though I don't particularly disagree with you , your rational is just , well , plain silly.

When you throw a song title out in the air and describe how you hear it , all you did was just that , and I'm just thinking "ok" kudos , good job , enjoy. But in reality what your describing as great is nothing more then slightly above average to my ear.

And when you describe your lack of knowledge and appreciate for Sabbath , you have then indirectly proven your point and my point at the exact same time , and that's ok.

Zeppelin is a good band , no doubt , so please enjoy! ..... wait , "what's that I hear" , O my the opening riff to Sabbath Bloody Sabbath , got's to go listen to TRUE greatness! ... God Bless mate

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Objectively and Subjectively, you can't truly believe this^^^^

At least I hope not, otherwise how do you all take each other serious over here.

Lpman and disco duck very well constructed and accurate trains of thought!

And yes there is no doubt that never an artist before or since can touch the melody process, of the Beatles and Black Sabbath, the keys to intelligent song writing, not just a self indulgent mess, and in Sabbath's case true complexity with merit, taste and composition.

Old friend, don't respond, just read, for in the end I won't be a fan favorite amongst these intellectuals :)

Trying to bring a treasure in for you, fingers crossed and God Bless

I'll admit I'm not familiar with most of Black Sabbath's catalog. I know they're considered one of the pioneer heavy metal bands along with Zep and Deep Purple. I'm a big fan of the latter two bands but, I haven't heard enough of Sabbath's music to have an opinion.

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End of discussion from my side! ;):friends: Listening to Sabbath right now and they are definately the best!

Respect!

(Comparing Sabbath with the Beatles where melody is concerned is pretty funny too, good one.) Mstork.....

Interesting comment , forgive me if your not being sincere , but if by chance you are , well , then , here is a lesson in the relation of how music works between hearing and listening.

Sabbath , in fact , are more melody based then even the Beatles , who deal more with harmony to "create" there illusion of constant melody , though they are masters of presentation regarding melody as well , now we're talking about a truly innovative band to the likes of a Black Sabbath.

Where Sabbath do use harmony through vocals "A hard Road" , and through instrument "Who are You" , to great success and more inventive , innovative and experimental then most , Sabbath are truly pioneers of "melody through expression" , a term lost on musicians of today's age , Sabbath were and still are melodic monsters!

And dare I say it , no one , and I mean no one , created a melody in the world of music pertaining to vocals with the degree of cleverness , as Mr Osbourne himself!

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I think young composers these days could learn from page, jones and bonham...just from studying the effect of guitar riffs reacting against drum beats. But I don't know how they could apply the gumption of rock music to classical.

Considering the rain song, or plants sea of love, page/plants use of strings on golden horse and jpj's use on snake eyes....they didn't use strings a lot.

Other than the arrangements of Kashmir, in the light, maybe achilles and carouselambra... I don't know what else was inspired by classical music to any degree.

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And dare I say it , no one , and I mean no one , created a melody in the world of music pertaining to vocals with the degree of cleverness , as Mr Osbourne himself!

Hmmm, Mr Osbourne Himself. A short time ago in a discussion in this forum I found out something I never knew about the band and that is that Ozzy was not the principal song writer of the band. Just about all of Sabbaths songs were written by Geezer Butler. According to Sabbath fans at Sabbath online Ozzy only wrote 2 songs, Who are you and Am I going insane.

So not so many melodies from Ozzy during his Sabbath years

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Hmmm, Mr Osbourne Himself. A short time ago in a discussion in this forum I found out something I never knew about the band and that is that Ozzy was not the principal song writer of the band. Just about all of Sabbaths songs were written by Geezer Butler. According to Sabbath fans at Sabbath online Ozzy only wrote 2 songs, Who are you and Am I going insane.

So not so many melodies from Ozzy during his Sabbath years

Actually, to clarify a bit, Tony and Geezer wrote the music, and Geezer wrote the lyrics. Despite this, Ozzy took the words and created the melodies. He does have an innate sense of melody, but then again, so do most singers. That's why they are singers and front men. Ozzy was very talented in this area, and one listen to War Pigs, should prove that fact, as his sinister lyric truly suits the song.

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I love Ozzy He's is a great Frontman and his voice works perfectly for Black Sabbath but I do not consider him a singer in the classic sense of the word. In that I wouldn't say his voice is full of beautiful tones.

I agree, but melody does not always mean beautiful tones. Generally, Ozzy would create the melody for a track, with lyrics that he made up on the spot. Geezer would then take the demo and come up with lyrics that fit the song and Ozzy's melody. By melody, I refer to the symbiosis between voice and instrumentation.

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  • 2 months later...

I have been playing guitar since 1972 and was stationed in California. I went to many a concert at the Forum and I even spent a lot of time at The Whisky. I used to feel that Jimmy Page was the Greatest guitar player in the world because of his talent and technique but now I realize that his true talent was in his creativity. For him to come up with the rifts for Over the Hills and Kashmir and the Ocean (to name a few) is and will remain musical genius. As a guitar player I listen to him play and I wonder how in the hell did he come up with that chord or that combination? The combined work and content is unmatched in all music of that era. The sad fact is that you really have to know music theory or technique to really appreciate the work. Jimmy didn't care about all of that he just wrote and composed while in the zone and he was the only one residing in that particular musical zipcode. He had his finger on the heartbeat of all of us rock and roll lovers and he channeled pure magic every time he laid down a track. I feel that Jimmy Page was the Mozart of our time. His rifts were the leit motifs and themes similar to the great composers of a bygone era...Jimmy just ramped up the sounds using his telecaster and his les paul instead of the violins and harpsichords of the past. I feel that Mozart would have been a Stratocaster kind of guy but that is another post.

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