Led Zeppelin, just a cut above the rest!

[nirvana]

To continue with the Jimmy principal - I agree, Jimmy "technically" is not the strongest guitarist ever, even in just Rock circles. No. Jimmy has always played "dirty and sloppy" with some technical bright spots, mainly acoustically in my opinion.

However, beyond being with Zep and working his magic, I saw him with the first Firm tour where at one point, during a fair concert performance, he did 2 things that totally blew the crowd away. The first was a "freak-out" theremin laced solo piece where he was on his knees, Gibson on a stand in front of him. He proceeds to bow in front of the guitar and while slowly rising up, he waves both hands in one direction and this freakin' low,low frequency bass comes ringing out from everywhere!

Shook the building! Then he bows again and rises up , head bent backwards, long hair over his face, raises one arm upward and summons green lasers and backward echo theremin-like guitar notes that shot back and forth from all the speakers! Repeated the low freq. notes on the next bow, and then starts waving his arms back and forth slowly with fog and green lasers circling him and all these demon-like notes winging all over the place from the standing Gibson (or so it seemed, but the effect was startling).

So, stage presence? I'll give that to Jimmy beyond anyone, anytime, anywhere.

The next thing was his guitar solo during "Live in Peace"...sublime, emotional, and the crowd was giving a standing O even before he finished it!

And this was all post-Zeppelin Jimmy!

[ZoSo88]

Dirty and Sloppy? Have you listened to Nirvana? lol

[madison]

i think of the Beatles of kings of Pop Rock

Elvis king of Rock

Who King of Rock opera

Beach Boys kings of surf rock

Eagles kings of California Country rock

Pink Floyd as King of theatrical rock

Sex Pistols & Clash as co kings of punk

Nirvana kings of grunge

Boz Scaggs king of Smooth Jazz

BBKing king of Blues

LED ZEPPELIN KINGS AND INVENTORS OF HARD ROCK

[Laughter]

I see the argument you are trying to make but still, you don't have ALL the facts. The Beatles stopped touring in about 1966. The band broke up in 1969. After they stopped touring they produced about 5 albums. From 1963-1966, they produced about 8 albums! So they actually produced the majority of their body of work while they were still an active touring band. Besides, don't you think that the reason for the large amount of great songs comes from the fact that they had 2 guys by the name of John Lennon and Paul McCartney wrting songs?? Its quite possible... They weren't bad songwriters from what I hear

Notice at '66 when they quite they started getting a whole lot more, shall we say, less pop and a bit more refined. The covers were gone and the entrance into Sgt. Pepper land and beyond began.

[Laughter]

A Day in the Life is one of my favorite Beatles songs and I like it as much as STH. Its got a beautiful melody and was executed to a tee. Helter Skelter is not metal. Its punk... And who cares if there is an element of pop in every beatles song?? They were damn catchy and they sold millions!

As the Rutles said, "All You Need is Cash."

Besides, I didn't say it was metal. It's attributed to metal by a ton of idiots. And besides, Communication Breakdown was recorded before The White Album was released as well. Johnny Ramone attributes that to his playing style.

[Mangani]

Yes, they were. There's a reason why there's only three bands who get the phrase "One of the greatest bands of all time" and one of those bands is the Who (Beatles and Stones are the other two).

Where have you been hiding lately??? Zeppelin are often described as the greatest rock band of all time or the ultimate rock band of all time. There has been a lot of similar accolades recently, even in the mainstream press. I've never read many people claim that the Who were the greatest rock band of all time.

And you've seriously never even heard Zeppelin being refered to as "one of the greatest bands of all time"??? Well I take it you haven't been watching or listening to the BBC lately????

I was actually referring to the board as a whole, but while we're at it:

""Townshend did not come up with as many great MUSICAL compositions as Page.

Where do I say Jimmy Page came up with everything Led Zeppelin ever did?????????? You've lost me.

I disagree entirely.

Well this is LED ZEPPELIN board. I'm afraid you are onto a loser if you serious expect us to accept the Who had as many great songs as Led Zeppelin. In fact, I doubt you'd get anybody to agree with you there even on a generic music forum.

Even stuff like Won't Get Fooled Again and Baba O'Riley are not as revered as Stairway, Kashmir or Whole Lotta Love are and that's a fact, jack.

The Beatles were as well, but the Who were ever bit as great as those two bands.

Nup.

They certainly are not in the same way the Who are. Most people can't wrap their heads around the rock operas for quite some time.

No, not in the "same" way. In a different way.

Zep has a shorter gestation period.

Huh? They took less time to have babies????

Oh and that quote from Jimmy was referring to the critics and other bands, not the fans of Zeppelin.

Sorry, the quote is "people", not "critics and other bands". Page was right. Led Zeppelin's albums are not the easiest to get into. You claimed the Who are an aquired taste. I merely pointed out that Led Zeppelin are too. My girlfriend never used to like Zeppelin. Now she's heard their stuff over and over again over many years they have become her favourite band. Yet initially she didn't like them.

You don't have to, I certainly won't be losing sleep because you don't like a band I do.

Well you seem to have been concerned enough about it already because you keep trying to convince me you are right and I am wrong LOL.

Oh that just isn't true, but again, if you don't like the Who, that's just fine with me.

Why do you keep on pulling these things out of fresh air?? I did not say "I don't like the Who". I do like some of their stuff. A fair bit actually. But I don't think they were or are 'up there' with Led Zeppelin, both in greatness and with the wealth of great musical output.

There are lots of other bands I love, but again they weren't up there with Led Zeppelin.

[Mangani]

......the rest of what you said about the Who is factually incorrect. As far as hits go, they have more. Zep really only has a handful of actual hits, but that's a result of their "single" practices.

Zeppelin had more bigger hit albums though....

[Laughter]

The Beatles are most certainly more influential and 'greater' than Zeppelin, no question. The Beatles was the bedrock of all popular music today- they took experimentation to a unprecedented fearless stage, innovated and practically created the rock and roll sound for the generations to come. Without the beatles, there would be no rock as we know it and we would still be mostly playing boogie woogie with Chuck berry and Elvis. Aside from that, Beatles songs are among the world's most popular, next to the obvious tunes everyone knows by Mozart and Beethoven and bach blah blah. Beatles' melodies are enduring and endless... music is melody. Zeppelin has great jives and head banging material that spawned so much to hard rock. The Beatles are accessible to practicably anyone who wants a good listen, while I can definitely see how Zeppelin can scare away a listener with particularly delicate tastes (like my sister, HATES zeppelin).

I'll put it succintly: Led Zeppelin changed hard rock forever. The Beatles changed music forever.

Good night everyone

Hey Timboh, brickfilms Timboh?

Anyway, for you to even imply that Zeppelin didn't change music forever as well is just preposterous. They inspired every genre they've ever touched. That's saying a lot. Look at covers of Kashmir by Moroccan artists or Me Love by a non-artist.

The ignorance of the "all hard rock" stance stuns me. It's pretty easy to spot someone who only sees the Zeppelin that the media let on. Also, Zeppelin had a sound not akin to the Beatles whatsoever. The Rain song doesn't show any melody to you? The mellotron section in Four Sticks doesn't show any melody to you?

[GetTheLedOut]

Zeppelin had more bigger hit albums though....

I'm not sure if that's true or not, but are you implying that makes them better?

[GetTheLedOut]

Where have you been hiding lately??? Zeppelin are often described as the greatest rock band of all time or the ultimate rock band of all time. There has been a lot of similar accolades recently, even in the mainstream press. I've never read many people claim that the Who were the greatest rock band of all time.

So you can only believe something if someone tells it to you? And I'm not contending that the Who are necessarily better, I'm just saying you shouldn't make a naive claim that Zep is the best.

And you've seriously never even heard Zeppelin being refered to as "one of the greatest bands of all time"??? Well I take it you haven't been watching or listening to the BBC lately????

Well as I don't get the BBC, no. And I do agree Zep is one of the best of all time. You'll get no argument with me on that.

Where do I say Jimmy Page came up with everything Led Zeppelin ever did?????????? You've lost me.

I provided the quote, didn't I?

Well this is LED ZEPPELIN board. I'm afraid you are onto a loser if you serious expect us to accept the Who had as many great songs as Led Zeppelin. In fact, I doubt you'd get anybody to agree with you there even on a generic music forum.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought this was a forum for those who like Zeppelin, not a forum for those who ONLY like Zeppelin...

Even stuff like Won't Get Fooled Again and Baba O'Riley are not as revered as Stairway, Kashmir or Whole Lotta Love are and that's a fact, jack.

In case you haven't noticed, many people (including many on this board) despise Stairway To Heaven. Now, I'm not one of those people, but if you want to see what low regard Stairway is held I advise you to see this list. Notice that Stairway is at 31 (which I think is ridiculously low). However, the Who place at 11... Just a sign when you are on a neutral playing field, Zep often is put below other bands, such as the Who.

Nup.

I'm afraid so

No, not in the "same" way. In a different way.

Huh? They took less time to have babies????

Gestation: the conception and development of an idea or plan

Period: an amount of time

Put those two together.

Sorry, the quote is "people", not "critics and other bands". Page was right. Led Zeppelin's albums are not the easiest to get into. You claimed the Who are an aquired taste. I merely pointed out that Led Zeppelin are too. My girlfriend never used to like Zeppelin. Now she's heard their stuff over and over again over many years they have become her favourite band. Yet initially she didn't like them.

Well I don't know about you, but as soon as I was listening to my first Zeppelin album I was enjoying them. I used to not like the Who very much at all, certain not their rock operas. Now I love them.

Well you seem to have been concerned enough about it already because you keep trying to convince me you are right and I am wrong LOL.

Well, you are. No one band has an irrefutable claim at being the best. Just because you and your friends like them more means nothing.

Why do you keep on pulling these things out of fresh air?? I did not say "I don't like the Who". I do like some of their stuff. A fair bit actually. But I don't think they were or are 'up there' with Led Zeppelin, both in greatness and with the wealth of great musical output.

There are lots of other bands I love, but again they weren't up there with Led Zeppelin.

I take issue with you assuming that Zeppelin are the best and that it must be accepted. I have no problem with you saying they're your favorite (as stated before, they're mine too). But to say they are the greatest and that any other band cannot be in contention for the title is ridiculous.

[guitarmy]

This thread has really taken off.

I have to admit that I took a look at the first post and ran for the hills.

I don't really know The Who like I do Led Zeppelin and The Beatles.

I only know the mainstream stuff from The Who, so I guess I can't really compare them here.

But I suppose if I liked their mainstream stuff then I'd have probably checked them out a little more by now.

...

It's natural for Led Zeppelin to be superior to The Beatles because Led Zeppelin came after them.

You would only hope for rock to improve and it did.

...

I don't know if this was said in one of the long blocks of paragraphs above, but Jimmy Page did session work on "I Can't Explain", for The Who's demo tape.

Of course he did it all I suppose.

[GetTheLedOut]

I don't know if this was said in one of the long blocks of paragraphs above, but Jimmy Page did session work on "I Can't Explain", for The Who's demo tape.

Of course he did it all I suppose.

You're real close on that one. Page was brought in for the actual recording. However there are a few stories on exactly what he did.

Townshend claims (perhaps incorrectly) that Page only played on the b-side, "Bald Headed Woman." Page claims he did actually play on "I Can't Explain," but only the rhythm. I tend to believe that the latter is true and that either Townshend was unaware (Shel Talmy was a bit of a shady individual), or that the latter is true and Townshend won't admit to not playing all the guitar on the song.

[spencer]

I think this argument has gotten to the point where we should all just agree to disagree.. I mean we all have our certain bands that we like more than others. It really is pointless to argue over this; I mean its all in your taste. You can argue all day that an apple taste better than an orange or a pear. But how can anyone be right when it all comes down to personal taste? While there may be facts such as impact and album sales and stuff like that to back up our arguments, it really doesn't matter anyway. Its obvious everyone in this forum has pretty good taste in music. You know, at least they aren't arguing that Fall Out Boy or Hinder are better than Zeppelin lol.

[GetTheLedOut]

I think this argument has gotten to the point where we should all just agree to disagree.. I mean we all have our certain bands that we like more than others. It really is pointless to argue over this; I mean its all in your taste. You can argue all day that an apple taste better than an orange or a pear. But how can anyone be right when it all comes down to personal taste? While there may be facts such as impact and album sales and stuff like that to back up our arguments, it really doesn't matter anyway. Its obvious everyone in this forum has pretty good taste in music.

I can agree to that.

You know, at least they aren't arguing that Fall Out Boy or Hinder are better than Zeppelin lol.

And THANK GOD for that . While someone can make an argument for anyone... I'd rather not have to deal with that.

[Mangani]

So you can only believe something if someone tells it to you? And I'm not contending that the Who are necessarily better, I'm just saying you shouldn't make a naive claim that Zep is the best.

LOL, where I have done that? I have never claimed Led Zeppelin are the best and that there is nobody up there with them.

Haven't you been reading my posts?

Can you please stop claiming I have written things I never have? You have done this MULTIPLE times already in this thread and it's quite annoying to be honest. There is nothing worse than trying to discuss a subject with somebody who doesn't even read your posts properly and is deliberately misrepresenting what you have supposedly said just to try and win an argument.

Go back, read all my posts again and please find where I have said "Led Zeppelin were the best and nobody is up there with them".

Ta.

All I have refuted is that the Who weren't. All I wrote in my last post that you quoted was that Zeppelin have been given accolades by the media of being the best rock band of all time or one of the best bands of all time. You claimed they are NOT so honoured. You are wrong on that. Totally. Excuse me but the BBC did claim EXACTLY that on their recent news show and right in front of me I have a Mojo magazine special which says in big letters "Inside the ultimate rock n' roll band.......Led Zeppelin". Neither the BBC nor Mojo magazine are hard rock biased media outlets.

[Mangani]

Well as I don't get the BBC, no. And I do agree Zep is one of the best of all time. You'll get no argument with me on that.

Yes and they are generally considered either the greatest rock band or at least one of the greatest rock bands by most of the media. We have seen that in abundance ever since they announced they are to reform for that gig.

I provided the quote, didn't I?

No you didn't. You never provided a quote where I supposedly claim Jimmy Page came up with everything Zeppelin ever did.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought this was a forum for those who like Zeppelin, not a forum for those who ONLY like Zeppelin...

I like many many bands, not just Zeppelin. You however, are onto a loser in trying to get folks here to agree that the Who came up with as many great songs as Led Zeppelin. I don't think anybody on even a generic music forum would agree with you there.

In case you haven't noticed, many people (including many on this board) despise Stairway To Heaven.

Its generally considered one of the greatest rock songs of all time and it has even topped such polls many times. I've never heard of any Who song being considered the greatest rock song of all time.

Now, I'm not one of those people, but if you want to see what low regard Stairway is held I advise you to see this list. Notice that Stairway is at 31 (which I think is ridiculously low). However, the Who place at 11... Just a sign when you are on a neutral playing field, Zep often is put below other bands, such as the Who.

Oh great. A Rolling Stone article. Such dear friends of Zeppelin, Rolling Stone magazine were hey???

You seriously think Won't Get Fooled Again or Baba O' riley are as widely revered as Stairway, Kashmir or Whole Lotta Love?????????

[Mangani]

Well I don't know about you, but as soon as I was listening to my first Zeppelin album I was enjoying them. I used to not like the Who very much at all, certain not their rock operas. Now I love them.

Took me two years to love Physical Grafitti and Presence, while Houses Of The Holy took me about a year to really like. Led Zeppelin III I couldn't get into for ages either while it was only recently (after being a Zep fan for almost 20 years) that I began to soften towards In Through The Out Door.

Well, you are.

I'm wrong because you say so? Erm, ok cheif. Whatever.

No one band has an irrefutable claim at being the best.

Who said they are?

Just because you and your friends like them more means nothing.

Yeah, it "means nothing" that Zeppelin are the biggest selling albums band behind the Beatles. Doesn't mean a damn thing. Means nothing that they have a huge selling back catalogue...far bigger than the Who. Means nothing. Ok. I see.

I would opinion (which is backed up by at least some facts) that The Beatles, Led Zeppelin and The Rolling Stones are the three greatest British bands of all time.

I take issue with you assuming that Zeppelin are the best and that it must be accepted.

I take issue with you claiming I have said that when I haven't. I haven't said Led Zeppelin are above everybody and nobody comes close.

I have no problem with you saying they're your favorite (as stated before, they're mine too). But to say they are the greatest and that any other band cannot be in contention for the title is ridiculous.

Well if I had actually said that then I would agree with you...................but since I haven't said that then may I suggest that you are simply reading what you want to read and not reading what I have actually written???

You are letting your passion in defending the Who's honour rule your head.

READ POSTS PROPERLY before accusing people.

Cheers.

[GetTheLedOut]

All I wrote in my last post that you quoted was that Zeppelin have been given accolades by the media of being the best rock band of all time or one of the best bands of all time. You claimed they are NOT so honoured. You are wrong on that. Totally. Excuse me but the BBC did claim EXACTLY that on their recent news show and right in front of me I have a Mojo magazine special which says in big letters "Inside the ultimate rock n' roll band.......Led Zeppelin". Neither the BBC nor Mojo magazine are hard rock biased media outlets.

Well then your guilty of what you accuse me of, not reading the posts.

I never said Zeppelin were not "the best," I said no one band can irrefutably be referred to as such. I'll share the subtleties with you so you understand. I'm not saying there are bands superior to Zeppelin, I'm saying no one band can be unconditionally titled the best.

[GetTheLedOut]

Took me two years to love Physical Grafitti and Presence, while Houses Of The Holy took me about a year to really like. Led Zeppelin III I couldn't get into for ages either while it was only recently (after being a Zep fan for almost 20 years) that I began to soften towards In Through The Out Door.

I'd still say the Who are more of an acquired taste.

[GetTheLedOut]

I'm wrong because you say so? Erm, ok cheif. Whatever.

No, but it's an accepted idea. So unless you can make an argument to the contrary, sorry.

Who said they are?

Uhm... you did. Why don't you read YOUR posts.

so i listen to most of all the greats, its just that when one has to pick out a favorite and best...in my case those two titles go hand in hand, i picked led zeppelin.

Seems pretty clear you're calling them the best...

Yeah, it "means nothing" that Zeppelin are the biggest selling albums band behind the Beatles. Doesn't mean a damn thing. Means nothing that they have a huge selling back catalogue...far bigger than the Who. Means nothing. Ok. I see.

When you are comparing the quality of the band's music, no. It means nothing. Those statistics only hold water in conversations about commercial success and popularity, both of which are not what we are discussing.

I would opinion (which is backed up by at least some facts) that The Beatles, Led Zeppelin and The Rolling Stones are the three greatest British bands of all time.

Since no band can be irrefutably called the best, then you have nothing.

I take issue with you claiming I have said that when I haven't. I haven't said Led Zeppelin are above everybody and nobody comes close.

so i listen to most of all the greats, its just that when one has to pick out a favorite and best...in my case those two titles go hand in hand, i picked led zeppelin.

Well if I had actually said that then I would agree with you...................but since I haven't said that then may I suggest that you are simply reading what you want to read and not reading what I have actually written???

You are letting your passion in defending the Who's honour rule your head.

READ POSTS PROPERLY before accusing people.

Or perhaps you're just not reading the posts yourself...

one more time...

I take issue with you claiming I have said that when I haven't. I haven't said Led Zeppelin are above everybody and nobody comes close.

so i listen to most of all the greats, its just that when one has to pick out a favorite and best...in my case those two titles go hand in hand, i picked led zeppelin.

Well, enjoy crafting a hasty denial of the fact you've stumbled over your own words. I do look forward to reading it.

[Ross62]

You were both wrong,'Madness' rules,Baggy Trousers.

[ZoSo88]

No, but it's an accepted idea. So unless you can make an argument to the contrary, sorry.

Uhm... you did. Why don't you read YOUR posts.

Seems pretty clear you're calling them the best...

When you are comparing the quality of the band's music, no. It means nothing. Those statistics only hold water in conversations about commercial success and popularity, both of which are not what we are discussing.

Since no band can be irrefutably called the best, then you have nothing.

Or perhaps you're just not reading the posts yourself...

one more time...

Well, enjoy crafting a hasty denial of the fact you've stumbled over your own words. I do look forward to reading it.

And just how am i stumbling over my own words? You are taking a quote from someone else and then one from me (which contradict) and making it look like i said both. Look at the second to last quote...its not from ZoSo88. Do you just come here to take people's quotes and insult them with little one sentence come backs. The issue shouldn't be with me, it should be with proving that Zeppelin isn't as great as i say they are (which for some reason you take issue with). But in all fairness, all you are giving is a matter of opinion. Yes, its my opinion that Zep is the best, but i have alot of statistical and historical backing to make the point stronger (and yes, their success and popularity has to count for something, we can't just evaluate greatness as matter of opinion). So what is it exactly that puts the Who up there with Led Zeppelin?

[GetTheLedOut]

And just how am i stumbling over my own words? You are taking a quote from someone else and then one from me (which contradict) and making it look like i said both. Look at the second to last quote...its not from ZoSo88.

You're right, it's my mistake. Both of you meld into one most of the time.

Yes, its my opinion that Zep is the best, but i have alot of statistical and historical backing to make the point stronger (and yes, their success and popularity has to count for something, we can't just evaluate greatness as matter of opinion).

Success and sales count for popularity, but not quality. Sales do not equal quality and visa versa.

So what is it exactly that puts the Who up there with Led Zeppelin?

Their catalog which contains great albums and songs from 1965 through 1982 (and off and on again thereafter), and their great live performance (nearly untouched in my opinion). I'm not saying Zeppelin has a lesser catalog or a lesser live performance, but they are not better than the Who in my opinion. And since this is subjective, while you can have preferences it's naive to claim one band as definitively greater than the rest.

[ZoSo88]

You're right, it's my mistake. Both of you meld into one most of the time.

Success and sales count for popularity, but not quality. Sales do not equal quality and visa versa.

Their catalog which contains great albums and songs from 1965 through 1982 (and off and on again thereafter), and their great live performance (nearly untouched in my opinion). I'm not saying Zeppelin has a lesser catalog or a lesser live performance, but they are not better than the Who in my opinion. And since this is subjective, while you can have preferences it's naive to claim one band as definitively greater than the rest.

Well i think thats the most fair way you've put it so far. Of course i disagree that The Who are on the same level as LZ, but its all a matter of opinion i guess. I tell you what though..i'll delve further into the Obscure Who stuff to see what im missing, i like them anyway so you never know what might turn up. But i really think Queen is the only band i'd put anywhere near the same level as LZ, and id still say they are slightly below. They are the only band that could compare with being so versitile, musically brilliant, lyrically genius, and for some reason just evoke that overall sense of brilliance. But to me, there is one and only LZ...i know alot of people don't have favorite and if they do they tend to think everyones around the same level. For me..one has to take the title of greatest and be the "Michael Jordan" of all of music if you will, for me...its Zeppelin.

[Laughter]

The Who songs don't have near the same timeless quality as Led Zeppelin.

(Love how my posts are invisible...)