Is Burn like a candle better than HTWWW?

[ISIS]

I've just recently got hold of a copy of "Burn Like a Candle" which is the show that was used for the majority of HTWWW.

Is it just me, but I actually prefer the "raw" audience recording more than the polished produced sound on HTWWW.

[Fresh Garbage]

I do as well....I like bootlegs over official releases anyday. I remember listening to the Royal Albert Hall fragment (from Lemon Song) so much that when I got the DVD I started to miss the old muddy radio brodcast. kinda crazy if you think about it. I think it has more to do with me listening to audiance recordings for 25+ years, they kind of grow on you. and then when you hear a fresh clean version, it's like your not hearing the same show.

I really like they way they are taking SB recordings and mixing them with great audiance (matrix). I will take some more of those instead.

plus+ the editing on these official releases is for the birds!

Edited February 18, 2008 by Fresh Garbage

[georgio]

I do as well....I like bootlegs over official releases anyday. I remember listening to the Royal Albert Hall fragment (from Lemon Song) so much that when I got the DVD I started to miss the old muddy radio brodcast. kinda crazy if you think about it. I think it has more to do with me listening to audiance recordings for 25+ years, they kind of grow on you. and then when you hear a fresh clean version, it's like your not hearing the same show.

I really like they way they are taking SB recordings and mixing them with great audiance (matrix). I will take some more of those instead.

plus+ the editing on these official releases is for the birds!

It's definitely a more complete show. I have the version called "Heartbreak Hotel". I prefer the version of Rock and Roll on mine and probably Stairway to Heaven and SIBLY - these versions were better than the ones on HTWWW

[Joelmon]

It's definitely a more complete show. I have the version called "Heartbreak Hotel". I prefer the version of Rock and Roll on mine and probably Stairway to Heaven and SIBLY - these versions were better than the ones on HTWWW

You've actually picked the songs that were sourced from the Long Beach show of the 27th, not the LA forum show of the 25th, which was 'Heartbreak Hotel' and 'Burn like a Candle'....

Did you know that ? You're very discerning.

Check here for reference sources for HTWWW...

http://www.thegardentapes.co.uk/htwww.html

Edited February 20, 2008 by Joelmon

[jaimerosario]

Yes and No...

Yes: HTWWW is better in sound quality an delivers the "perfectionism" of what Led Zeppelin was about to project while playing. It really takes you like it was played yesterday.

No: The bootlegs always offers "AS-IS" policy in what happened and what was played. Also, the sound quality drops a lot, but you get that atmoshpere that the "crowd fade in & out" between songs doesn't. You get unadultered and unedited songs, plus material not released officially. Also, you won't get the "Knife of Perfectionism" by Jimmy Page.

Edited February 25, 2008 by jaimerosario

[georgio]

You've actually picked the songs that were sourced from the Long Beach show of the 27th, not the LA forum show of the 25th, which was 'Heartbreak Hotel' and 'Burn like a Candle'....

Did you know that ? You're very discerning.

Check here for reference sources for HTWWW...

http://www.thegardentapes.co.uk/htwww.html

Esteemed Joelmon -

I have a missing link pressing of Heartbreak Hotel which states "LA Forum"....the versions of the songs i prefer are on this one.....i think u misread but thanks anyway. the black dog and othafa on htwww are from this if i recall!.....cheers

[Joelmon]

Esteemed Joelmon -

I have a missing link pressing of Heartbreak Hotel which states "LA Forum"....the versions of the songs i prefer are on this one.....i think u misread but thanks anyway. the black dog and othafa on htwww are from this if i recall!.....cheers

Oh...my confusion.....thanks for pointing that out.

I was having a dyslexic moment.

[One Symbol]

Yes and No...

Yes: HTWWW is better in sound quality an delivers the "perfectionism" of what Led Zeppelin was about to project while playing. It really takes you like it was played yesterday.

No: The bootlegs always offers "AS-IS" policy in what happened and what was played. Also, the sound quality drops a lot, but you get that atmoshpere that the "crowd fade in & out" between songs doesn't. You get unadultered and unedited songs, plus material not released officially. Also, you won't get the "Knife of Perfectionism" by Jimmy Page.

Amen to that, really!

[NYC6880]

I prefer Candle over HTWWW personally. I love the atmosphere and performance and the fact its an unedited presentation of the band. HTWWW is great but I havent listened to it much since I got boots of Candle and the 27th.

[Cactus]

I think they both serve a purpose and both deserve to exist

[georgio]

I think they both serve a purpose and both deserve to exist

Yep. But why Page left off Communication Breakdown and Louis Louis will remain a mystery. Sad.

[percy the gardner]

Yep. But why Page left off Communication Breakdown and Louis Louis will remain a mystery. Sad.

Or why they took out the dedication to LA off from the beginning of WLL (that people from elsewhere would get jealous?) and edited the whole medley leaving out great stuff like "Slow Down". Beats me but I am glad we can get both. Well, I wouldn't mind having the audio quality of HTWWW AND the original content, eh?

Cheers!

[Cactus]

Well, I wouldn't mind having the audio quality of HTWWW AND the original content

This possibly/probably exists...Depending of course on Kevin Shirley's work methods, he could have mixed the whole show before they edited out the parts you talked about. Meaning that somewhere a mix of these songs would exist.

[Pb Derigable]

If they released HTWWW with Louis Louis , wouldn't they have to give part of the money from that album to the writers of that song! I know they Incorporated other people songs into their songs, but since its only tidbits of said song, it doesn't need to be credited? Like did the writer of "San Fransisco" got money from TSRTS. or even the tunes they threw in Wholo Lotta love.

Heres another question, if Page released the 77 forum shows somehow, and master them like he did with TSRTS and HTWWW, would you guys still love Listen to this Eddie and badge-holders more.

[Cactus]

If they released HTWWW with Louis Louis , wouldn't they have to give part of the money from that album to the writers of that song! I know they Incorporated other people songs into their songs, but since its only tidbits of said song, it doesn't need to be credited? Like did the writer of "San Fransisco" got money from TSRTS. or even the tunes they threw in Wholo Lotta love.

They should pay royalties to anyone whose music is incorporated into the recording (whether they do is another matter!) Technically they should have paid royalties every time they played a cover on stage, and I don't think they did. The HTWWW album does include credits for the various covers they played, however.

Would San Francisco get royalties? That's a bit of a grey area - Jimmy's playing is all original and Robert did a lot of improvisation around the original lyrics, so I think they would have a case to argue that it is a new work and don't owe royalties.

Heres another question, if Page released the 77 forum shows somehow, and master them like he did with TSRTS and HTWWW, would you guys still love Listen to this Eddie and badge-holders more.

They would all have a place, I think. Each fulfilling a different purpose. The whole thing about a live recording is that is it just that - a recording. Every person who goes to a show experiences it differently, depending on where they sit etc. A recording reflects that difference of experience. Obviously a fully mixed and mastered multi-track recording will give the best aural experience.

But part of the fun of collecting and listening to bootlegs is to do with the history of that particular show - when it was, who recorded it and how, what songs were played, what improvs were done, what Plantations Robert made, what mistakes happened. So bootleg recordings will always have a place.

[005]

if Page released the 77 forum shows somehow, and master them like he did with TSRTS and HTWWW, would you guys still love Listen to this Eddie and badge-holders more.

As nice as those audience recordings sound, it's tough to beat a professionally recorded and mixed CD set. I'd buy an official release of that material in a heartbeat. But I'd keep Eddie around because inevitably there'd be some bits that Page would want to edit out of the official release for whatever reason, and I still want to have the full show, with all its quirks.

[Chien Noir]

Well, I don't mind Jimmy's editing on the official releases but what I miss the most are the Plantations.

[Killing Floor Blues]

Well, I don't mind Jimmy's editing on the official releases but what I miss the most are the Plantations.

I personally don't mind the editing either. But if I could change anything about the official releases, I'd also add in a lot more of Plant's jabbering between songs.

[chicagogarza]

On 3/3/2008 at 8:27 AM, NYC6880 said:

I prefer Candle over HTWWW personally. I love the atmosphere and performance and the fact its an unedited presentation of the band. HTWWW is great but I havent listened to it much since I got boots of Candle and the 27th.

Sameeee! I love Robert's loud howls man. Also they cover the Beatles and Elvis in "Whole Lotta Love". That was a huge bonus not in HTWWW. Also "Louie, Louie" took the cake for me. Candle over HTWWW anyday.

[Inthelateafternoon]

I have the Godfather box set of the HTWWW shows. How does their versions compare to Burn Like A Candle and A Night at Heartbreak Hotel?

[Mr_K]

HTWWW in its remastered form is better than the original HTWWW over a decadel ago. Bass stronger. Drums not as compressed. But it still feels over-produced and incomplete. Wish someone would work on Burn Like A Candle and make a clean, clear version. We have the technology. If I just had the equipment....

Read the recent post on 1971/09/29. Listen to the snippet. Nice job on an old rough recording.

[SteveZ98]

1 hour ago, Mr_K said:

Wish someone would work on Burn Like A Candle and make a clean, clear version. We have the technology. If I just had the equipment....

Read the recent post on 1971/09/29. Listen to the snippet. Nice job on an old rough recording.

I believe I'm the one who did the 1971/09/29 show you mentioned. While Burn Like a Candle (BLAC) is good for an audience recording from 1972, it's not suitable for remastering like the 1971/09/29 was. I just tried it and it wasn't even worth posting a sample, that's how bad it came out. Granted, it took me the better part of two years to finish the Japan show, but I could tell immediately that it could be chiseled into shape given enough time. With BLAC, it can definitely sound better than it currently does, but the ceiling for how good it can sound with current technology is relatively low.

My hope for shows like BLAC is that software gets to the point where we can have a computer listen to the show and create midi files of the various instruments. We could then take an existing professional recording and split the instruments on it into samples (e.g. the individual chords and notes played on a guitar), then use a software to play the appropriate samples back when the midi files says a particular note or chord was played. In the case of BLAC, we could have the computer figure out what was played and then use samples from HTWWW when it's time to create the show. That sounds far fetched, but it already exists in rudimentary form for guitars (and I haven't researched the state of the art in a while, so it may be more advanced than I realize) and there are already drum replacement programs that let you take a drum hit in a song and replace it with a drum hit from another kit. I'm not sure how long this will take to come together, and some people may not even consider the result a true representation of the performance, but I think it's the direction that will produce the most listenable results. At least for instruments. I'm sure you could do something similar for vocals, but I'm not certain the results would be acceptable because we're so attuned to the sound of human voices that anything that's not perfect may sound too odd to be acceptable.

Edited September 14, 2020 by SteveZ98

[Mr_K]

54 minutes ago, SteveZ98 said:

I believe I'm the one who did the 1971/09/29 show you mentioned. While Burn Like a Candle (BLAC) is good for an audience recording from 1972, it's not suitable for remastering like the 1971/09/29 was. I just tried it and it wasn't even worth posting a sample, that's how bad it came out. Granted, it took me the better part of two years to finish the Japan show, but I could tell immediately that it could be chiseled into shape given enough time. With BLAC, it can definitely sound better than it currently does, but the ceiling for how good it can sound with current technology is relatively low.

My hope for shows like BLAC is that software gets to the point where we can have a computer listen to the show and create midi files of the various instruments. We could then take an existing professional recording and split the instruments on it into samples (e.g. the individual chords and notes played on a guitar), then use a software to play the appropriate samples back when the midi files says a particular note or chord was played. In the case of BLAC, we could have the computer figure out what was played and then use samples from HTWWW when it's time to create the show. That sounds far fetched, but it already exists in rudimentary form for guitars (and I haven't researched the state of the art in a while, so it may be more advanced than I realize) and there are already drum replacement programs that let you take a drum hit in a song and replace it with a drum hit from another kit. I'm not sure how long this will take to come together, and some people may not even consider the result a true representation of the performance, but I think it's the direction that will produce the most listenable results. At least for instruments. I'm sure you could do something similar for vocals, but I'm not certain the results would be acceptable because we're so attuned to the sound of human voices that anything that's not perfect may sound too odd to be acceptable.

"I believe I'm the one who did the 1971/09/29 show you mentioned... "

Yes, that was the one.

 

This is an interesting reply. I sure hope technology comes so a computer program can make their old shows sound good, like you did with 9/29. Of course it will still take good ears, like yours, to make it in the mix right.

Thanks.

[rm2551]

The technology to turn fairly clear boots (SB, or very good AUD) into stuff that sounds professionally multi-tracked is inevitable. It is just a matter of when. I hope to fuck it is within my lifetime....

[KillingFloorBlues]

We do have Winston's remaster "How the West Was Redone" where he took the separate tracks from the 5.1 surround sound DVD and did some remixing. It's a definite improvement over the official HTWWW CD, IMO as the sounds 'breathes' a bit more. Less brickwalled, JPJ's playing comes out much clearer. My only complaint for lack of a better word, is it lacks some of the punchiness of the Shirley mix. 

Steve, my ears would loves to hear your attempt at that project!