SteveAJones Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Was any audience taping expressly allowed during the O2 performance? The main floor was a sea of cellphones and digital cameras regardless. Somewhat less so in the more distant sections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Zeppnile Posted March 5, 2008 Author Share Posted March 5, 2008 Well, here's my question: How can you deprive them of money when they weren't even going to release the shows themselves? Certainly Led Zeppelin (or any other band's) fans have already bought all there was to buy legitimately. Live shows are the icing on the cake. Again, I'm speaking strictly of live shows. Not demos, outtakes, etc. That's a different matter altogether. Good question. It's probably hard for die hard fans to grasp this, but there may be people out there who have not heard many of a bands live performances, and in that case the poor quality of a bootleg may have the effect of creating a negative impression of that band which may in turn equal loss of sales on other authorized live releases. At least that is the way the lawyers often look at it. And I know you excluded demos and outtakes as examples, but let me give my experience within the film industry. Quite often some pre-released material of a film will get out on the street. Many times it is in the form of work prints or other screening matierial that has not been finalized in terms of color correction, audio augmentation, special effects, or contains 'story board shots' used to fill in some scenes... And never intended for the general public to see. This stuff will get out and get duplicated by pirates and then end up widely distributed on the internet. And sometimes it is the poor quality of this unfinalized material, that ends up costing the studios sales of either the cimema release or later DVDs. I believe a similar case can be made about concert bootlegs. And besides, ultimatly it should be up to the artist/label to make the decisions about their own creative content in every situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock Action Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Good question. It's probably hard for die hard fans to grasp this, but there may be people out there who have not heard many of a bands live performances, and in that case the poor quality of a bootleg may have the effect of creating a negative impression of that band which may in turn equal loss of sales on other authorized live releases. At least that is the way the lawyers often look at it. And I know you excluded demos and outtakes as examples, but let me give my experience within the film industry. Quite often some pre-released material of a film will get out on the street. Many times it is in the form of work prints or other screening matierial that has not been finalized in terms of color correction, audio augmentation, special effects, or contains 'story board shots' used to fill in some scenes... And never intended for the general public to see. This stuff will get out and get duplicated by pirates and then end up widely distributed on the internet. And sometimes it is the poor quality of this unfinalized material, that ends up costing the studios sales of either the cimema release or later DVDs. I believe a similar case can be made about concert bootlegs. And besides, ultimatly it should be up to the artist/label to make the decisions about their own creative content in every situation. You make some very good points. There are different ways of looking at things. As to the poor live boots, the first Zep I ever heard live was No Quarter from Seattle 1973 (this was back in '74). And due to the nature of the recording, I thought there was no bass being played on the song. Couldn't hear it, and Jonesy was on keys so I thought they just omitted bass. Whoops. So I can understand someone getting the wrong idea if they are a new fan. Us old fans just take things for granted I guess. And you're right- an artist should have the right to make the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwizard03 Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Well i far one have never made a dime on a boot recording but i have traded till i got completly wore out from it.Now i just help out a friend on occasion .I do still buy every new release the bands i have boot material from anyway .The Allman brothers allow taping and also sell copies of thier stuff on thier website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kissandra Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Unauthorized selling or sharing of live music is illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redeyedrichard Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Or do you draw a distinction between the bootlegging of material for fan appreciation/preservation and that just done as piracy for profit? Apprieciation and preservation is one of the great advantages of bootlegging. But I am strongly against ripping a good band off by selling bootlegs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Zeppnile Posted March 6, 2008 Author Share Posted March 6, 2008 Keith Richards once said; "If you're not being bootleged, then you need to worry about your carrer." I think that's a very healthy additude to have. Sheryl Crow's popularity seems to be slipping, (not that she's hard up yet), and I've noticed at the record shows that I've been at, there isn't many, if any bootlegs of her. If there was a pristine bootleg video available of the O2 concert taken from the video switcher in the arena would you buy it? And if you then had it would you share it with your friends? (anyone may answer this question) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock Action Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 If there was a pristine bootleg video available of the O2 concert taken from the video switcher in the arena would you buy it? And if you then had it would you share it with your friends? (anyone may answer this question) Yes to both. I would gladly buy it and then pass out free copies to friends. Would I SELL copies? No fuckin' way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahfin Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 If there was a pristine bootleg video available of the O2 concert taken from the video switcher in the arena would you buy it? No, because if such a video existed I would think someone would also upload it to a torrent site. On a somewhat similar note, R.E.M., along with Springsteen, the Beatles and Dylan are among the most heavily bootlegged artists out there. For that reason alone there are hundreds and hundreds of bootlegs out there of their shows (as well as studio outtakes, etc.). In recent years a concentrated effort has begun amongst fans to "liberate" those recordings by uploading them to torrent sites like Give It Away at Murmurs.com. That way everyone can share in them for free. I have no idea but I would surely hope something along that same sense of community would occur amongst Zeppelin fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattmc1973 Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Bootlegging is a victimless crime, like drugs, prostitution, and assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Zeppnile Posted March 6, 2008 Author Share Posted March 6, 2008 Yes to both. I would gladly buy it and then pass out free copies to friends. Would I SELL copies? No fuckin' way. Would you do the same with other types of stolen property? Say a guy offered you a case or iPods stolen from a warehouse for the low price of $200. Would you buy them and then give them out to your friends? I am not trying to question anyone's morality. I am just curious why people think creative content (music downloads, video games, computer software) is not in the same category as other types of property? No, because if such a video existed I would think someone would also upload it to a torrent site. On a somewhat similar note, R.E.M., along with Springsteen, the Beatles and Dylan are among the most heavily bootlegged artists out there. For that reason alone there are hundreds and hundreds of bootlegs out there of their shows (as well as studio outtakes, etc.). In recent years a concentrated effort has begun amongst fans to "liberate" those recordings by uploading them to torrent sites like Give It Away at Murmurs.com. That way everyone can share in them for free. I have no idea but I would surely hope something along that same sense of community would occur amongst Zeppelin fans. Define free? Is anything really free, or doesn't someone else end up paying for it? Bootlegging is a victimless crime, like drugs, prostitution, and assault. Very funny Matt Although I believe I will have that post moved to the 'Sarcasm thread' where it will be more on topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahfin Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Define free? Is anything really free, or doesn't someone else end up paying for it? If people do B & P (blanks & postage) the only cost is that of the blank CD and the postage. If you download from torrent sites the only cost is the amount of time it takes to download. Fans of the Grateful Dead (as well as other artists) have been trading shows for free for decades. In fact, I'd go as far as saying they're pretty much the model for trading shows for free amongst fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pb Derigable Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 If there was a pristine bootleg video available of the O2 concert taken from the video switcher in the arena would you buy it? And if you then had it would you share it with your friends? (anyone may answer this question) Yes, i would. In fact if i went to the O2 concert, i would try to find a way to steal the feed. Ive stolen a bunch of shit from work before. So maybe im not the best examle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JethroTull Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 I'll come clean. During the summer of 1973 during a visit to the New Jersey shore, I spotted an LP by Jethro Tull that I had never heard of, at one of those wheels of chance on the boardwalk. It took only 7 or 8 spins at .25 cents a pop before I won my choice of a prize. I must have been a bit green at the time, because it took me a listen or two before I realized it was a bootleg concert!! What has eventually become the infamous April 1972 Ticketron Tull bootleg. I still own it and quite enjoy it. I also own a two LP bootleg of Springsteen from about 1976. LP #1 is a red/white swirled vinyl. LP #2 is green/white swirled vinyl. A gift from a long lost friend. I own a fair number of Tull and Dictator bootlegs. During the late 90's I went to a slew of Dictator shows and made friends with a guy who taped every show. After a couple of even/steven trades, he just started making duplicate copies of the shows and gave me the extra. Most of the Tull bootleg tapes were also given to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JethroTull Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Bootlegging is a victimless crime, like drugs, prostitution, and assault. I was all prepared to give you some shit for this and then realized you were joking. You were joking right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Unauthorized selling or sharing of live music is illegal. There are over 100 nations in the world. Laws do vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evster2012 Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 I think the bottom line is this: It's up to the artist. Jimmy said during the bottleg trial in Scotland last year that he has no problem with free trading of Zeppelin shows among friends. It's just when people package it for sale that he is vehemently against. When a show is packaged as product, people can be fooled into thinking it's official, and who knows what they're getting (eg: the Earl's Court dvd that came out last year). In Page's opinion, trading of boots among friends is fine, just don't sell them for profit or package them as if they're the real thing. Other artists may feel differently, but that's Jimmy's stand. I wouldn't buy an unofficial copy of the O2 on dvd. I'll just wait for my copy to arrive free from a friend. I would never take money out of an artist's pocket, regardless of how wealthy that artist may be. Property is property. Plain and simple. Oh, and Kissy, legal or not, if Jimmy says it's cool with him to trade freely Zep shows, I'm grabbing all I can get! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzldoc Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 If people do B & P (blanks & postage) the only cost is that of the blank CD and the postage. If you download from torrent sites the only cost is the amount of time it takes to download. Fans of the Grateful Dead (as well as other artists) have been trading shows for free for decades. In fact, I'd go as far as saying they're pretty much the model for trading shows for free amongst fans. This is where people F#*K up. There are more people busted for mail fraud than just about any other law. It's the governments failsafe when local laws are weak. By the way the Postal Inspection Service has the highest conviction rate of any law enforcement agency in the country at 98% People need to think harder about what they send through the mail, oh and electronic transfers fall under the same postal regulations it's called wire fraud. http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/smittleSent.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahfin Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 It's not illegal to send CDs (home recorded, blank or otherwise) through the mail. With the advent of torrent sites doing B & Ps has pretty much fallen by the wayside anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzldoc Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 It's not illegal to send CDs (home recorded, blank or otherwise) through the mail. With the advent of torrent sites doing B & Ps has pretty much fallen by the wayside anyway. No it's not. But when copyright materials are sent for illicit purposes then THEY call it wire fraud. Trust me on this one Individual small potatoes they may not bother with, but those like the one posted in the link above mass producing for profit will fall hard. Not trying to be a party pooper just want to make people aware of the potential. There are three agencies in this country that make and play by their own set of rules. The Railroad Police, The IRS and the US Postal Inspection Service. Peace Out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evster2012 Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 A bootleg is not a copyrighted material. It has not been registered with the library of congress, nor does it fall under basic copyright law. Besides, Jimmy says free trading's cool with him. Nice job of ignoring my post, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzldoc Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 Sorry about ignoring your post if you were implying me. What I meant by copyright was the music itself. I'm all for free sharing if the artist is for it. Hell I remember making all kinds of casette tapes back in the day for my own listening pleasure and letting friends share. I was just making the point about how the government can be heavy handed when they want to and they can tailor laws to fit the crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwizard03 Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 I think the bottom line is this: It's up to the artist. Jimmy said during the bottleg trial in Scotland last year that he has no problem with free trading of Zeppelin shows among friends. It's just when people package it for sale that he is vehemently against. When a show is packaged as product, people can be fooled into thinking it's official, and who knows what they're getting (eg: the Earl's Court dvd that came out last year). In Page's opinion, trading of boots among friends is fine, just don't sell them for profit or package them as if they're the real thing. Other artists may feel differently, but that's Jimmy's stand. I wouldn't buy an unofficial copy of the O2 on dvd. I'll just wait for my copy to arrive free from a friend. I would never take money out of an artist's pocket, regardless of how wealthy that artist may be. Property is property. Plain and simple. Oh, and Kissy, legal or not, if Jimmy says it's cool with him to trade freely Zep shows, I'm grabbing all I can get! Thanks now i feel better about all my bootlegs not that i was gonna return them anyway .I would have just felt bad .But i am glad he is not against trading because i have done a lot of it and have gave a lot away to .Great to get that off my chest .By the way the 02 show was pretty good but far from perfect .I want the offical release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahfin Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 I know dozens of people that have done B & Ps over the years. Among them I don't know of a single case of mail fraud. I seriously doubt there's ever even been a case of that when it comes to CD trading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kissandra Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 There are over 100 nations in the world. Laws do vary. I know it's illegal in the United States. Oh, and Kissy, legal or not, if Jimmy says it's cool with him to trade freely Zep shows, I'm grabbing all I can get! Well yeah, that would be authorized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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