Jimmys lack of intrest in the occult.

[Styrbjorn]

There you have it then. These two are much better than the first, which looks terrible.

He left his Illuminati t-shirt at the Bilderberg group meeting in Geneva the day before.

Doh! That was a secret!! Where's the edit function?

[nirvana]

...and he always keeps a shirt on lest it reveal the huge THUG LIFE tattoo inked across his abdomen.

good one mate!

[Knebby]

Crowley wrote a poem entitled "The May Queen". this was referred to in the track _Stairway To Heaven_ off of _Led Zeppelin IV_ .

I can't agree with this connection. Crowley didn't invent the character "The May Queen" - she is well known in folk history, which Robert is passionate about, and Robert was the one who wrote the lyrics.

Also the Swan Song connection is clutching at straws a bit, as that was also a well-known phrase long before Crowley touched it.

The co-conspirator idea - I totally agree with MSG.

And the t-shirt was not photo-shopped.

Edited April 2, 2008 by Knebby

[Styrbjorn]

I can't agree with this connection. Crowley didn't invent the character "The May Queen" - she is well known in folk history, which Robert is passionate about, and Robert was the one who wrote the lyrics.

Also the Swan Song connection is clutching at straws a bit, as that was also a well-known phrase long before Crowley touched it.

The co-conspirator idea - I totally agree with MSG.

And the t-shirt was not photo-shopped.

He is a member of the Illuminati though. My mate saw him at the "Temple Of The All Seeing Eye" in Shoreditch last week.

[Knebby]

He is a member of the Illuminati though. My mate saw him at the "Temple Of The All Seeing Eye" in Shoreditch last week.

Well we know that's why he picked Robert as vocalist - the Plants being descendants of the Plantards, direct descendants of Jesus.

Edited April 2, 2008 by Knebby

[Bong-Man]

[SteveAJones]

I can't agree with this connection. Crowley didn't invent the character "The May Queen" - she is well known in folk history, which Robert is passionate about, and Robert was the one who wrote the lyrics.

Also the Swan Song connection is clutching at straws a bit, as that was also a well-known phrase long before Crowley touched it.

The co-conspirator idea - I totally agree with MSG.

And the t-shirt was not photo-shopped.

Agreed.

[Bong-Man]

Agreed.

Respectfully disagree. If you're going to focus solely on the ideas that were original to Crowley only, there won't be much left to diagnose. Most of his ideas were borrowed and stolen from elsewhere. He no more invented The May Queen than he did the concept of an Outrider, yet he wrote about both. Just because the concepts were not exclusive to his teachings, really has no bearing on if Jimmy was influenced by what Crowley wrote about those subjects.

My personal opinion is that many of the gentleman who follow Crowley tend to lose a little/lot of interest once they get older and their libido subsides. From reading his writings, and others opinions of him, his teachings can easily be explained as nothing more than an excuse for some old-fashioned Hedonism. Crowley himself pretty much died disillusioned with everything he had written during his life. Just one opinion

[SunChild]

Respectfully disagree. If you're going to focus solely on the ideas that were original to Crowley only, there won't be much left to diagnose. Most of his ideas were borrowed and stolen from elsewhere. He no more invented The May Queen than he did the concept of an Outrider, yet he wrote about both. Just because the concepts were not exclusive to his teachings, really has no bearing on if Jimmy was influenced by what Crowley wrote about those subjects.

My personal opinion is that many of the gentleman who follow Crowley tend to lose a little/lot of interest once they get older and their libido subsides. From reading his writings, and others opinions of him, his teachings can easily be explained as nothing more than an excuse for some old-fashioned Hedonism. Crowley himself pretty much died disillusioned with everything he had written during his life. Just one opinion

Just curious, what leads you to say Crowley was disillusioned by the time he died?

One thing I've wondered about is how much Robert's interest in folkways, Celtic lore, paganism, etc., and Jimmy's interest in the "occult" (strange word, with unfortunately dark connotations) intersected? You hardly ever hear about Robert's spiritual leanings, but from Zep lyrics it seems that there is an intersection there.

I also sometimes wonder how much of a hand Jimmy had in some of the lyrics, for example: "There's an angel on my shoulder, in my hand a sword of gold..." ? Or were the two of them just so much on the same wavelength?

[SteveAJones]

Respectfully disagree. If you're going to focus solely on the ideas that were original to Crowley only, there won't be much left to diagnose. Most of his ideas were borrowed and stolen from elsewhere. He no more invented The May Queen than he did the concept of an Outrider, yet he wrote about both. Just because the concepts were not exclusive to his teachings, really has no bearing on if Jimmy was influenced by what Crowley wrote about those subjects.

I merely agreed The May Queen and Swan Song preceeded Crowley. I wholeheartedly

agree Jimmy was influenced to actually use Swan Song, among many other symbols

and words, as a result of having absorbed Crowley's writings.

[Bong-Man]

Just curious, what leads you to say Crowley was disillusioned by the time he died?

One thing I've wondered about is how much Robert's interest in folkways, Celtic lore, paganism, etc., and Jimmy's interest in the "occult" (strange word, with unfortunately dark connotations) intersected? You hardly ever hear about Robert's spiritual leanings, but from Zep lyrics it seems that there is an intersection there.

I also sometimes wonder how much of a hand Jimmy had in some of the lyrics, for example: "There's an angel on my shoulder, in my hand a sword of gold..." ? Or were the two of them just so much on the same wavelength?

Because even though people interpet Crowley's life and writings many ways, what happened later in his life isn't really disputed. He died a broke heroin addict, and came to admit that many of his actions and writings were simply a means of escaping his privileged yet suppressed childhood. That's why many people dismiss him as being nothing more than the world's first modern rebelling teenager....and why teen-aged baby boomers embraced his philosophies so willingly.

From one site....

Crowley went on to publish more books – such as Magick: In theory and practice and his Confessions – but his reputation had been damaged. As the years passed he began losing touch with reality. He spent his final years penniless, a sad figure living on the favours of friends. A chronic heroin addict, he died in Hastings in 1947, disillusioned and questioning the philosophies he built to escape his repressed Christian upbringing.

The disillusionment started when he couldn't get it up anymore.

I also sometimes wonder how much of a hand Jimmy had in some of the lyrics, for example: "There's an angel on my shoulder, in my hand a sword of gold..." ? Or were the two of them just so much on the same wavelength?

Great question, and I wish I could help you there. I have the same suspicions about the lyrics. I also have my own ideas about "the intersection", but it's all speculation and probably better left unsaid. These are sensitive subjects to some folks, and probably deservedly so. As for myself, I don't believe in any hocus-pocus crap....I've just always thought there's more to this than what we're told.

[SunChild]

Because even though people interpet Crowley's life and writings many ways, what happened later in his life isn't really disputed. He died a broke heroin addict, and came to admit that many of his actions and writings were simply a means of escaping his privileged yet suppressed childhood. That's why many people dismiss him as being nothing more than the world's first modern rebelling teenager....and why teen-aged baby boomers embraced his philosophies so willingly.

From one site....

Crowley went on to publish more books – such as Magick: In theory and practice and his Confessions – but his reputation had been damaged. As the years passed he began losing touch with reality. He spent his final years penniless, a sad figure living on the favours of friends. A chronic heroin addict, he died in Hastings in 1947, disillusioned and questioning the philosophies he built to escape his repressed Christian upbringing.

The disillusionment started when he couldn't get it up anymore.

No doubt. Might have helped a bit if he'd gotten off the junk.

Thanks for your reply, Bongman. I simply haven't gotten that far along into reading him or reading about him. Seems a shame that he ended up that way. I do think he was ahead of his time, which can never be easy. I was discussing this with a friend, about how stuff we take as more acceptable now - yoga, Buddhism, heck, the frickin "Secret" - all seemed quite strange and esoteric in those times. He was several decades ahead of The Summer of Love, dropping acid, etc... very interesting stuff.

Great question, and I wish I could help you there. I have the same suspicions about the lyrics. I also have my own ideas about "the intersection", but it's all speculation and probably better left unsaid. These are sensitive subjects to some folks, and probably deservedly so. As for myself, I don't believe in any hocus-pocus crap....I've just always thought there's more to this than what we're told.

Agree with you, "the intersection" is indeed speculation and should be considered very delicately, if at all. The conversation here just reminded me of the stray thoughts I've had about it. Good to know I'm not alone.

[Styrbjorn]

Dying in Hastings is enough to disillusion anyone, let alone Crowley. Let me guess, Anton Le Vey died in Margate after a satanic donkey ride incident?

[SunChild]

Dying in Hastings is enough to disillusion anyone, let alone Crowley. Let me guess, Anton Le Vey died in Margate after a satanic donkey ride incident?

Heh.

So, the soul of a donkey was created below?

(Le Vey died in a Catholic hospital in San Francisco and his funeral service was in Colma, a strange little town that is mostly cemeteries - talk about disillusion.)

[Reggie29]

Because even though people interpet Crowley's life and writings many ways, what happened later in his life isn't really disputed. He died a broke heroin addict, and came to admit that many of his actions and writings were simply a means of escaping his privileged yet suppressed childhood. That's why many people dismiss him as being nothing more than the world's first modern rebelling teenager....and why teen-aged baby boomers embraced his philosophies so willingly.

Baby boomer hate that label!

As a teenager in the 70's IMHO Crowley was (and still is), a crackpot who tried to impose his lifestyle and mindless ramblings on any fool who would care to listen.

Apparently he did all right until he shot it all up his arm.

I find it interesting that in later life he blamed his childhood for his predicament and took no responsibility himself.

Then again everyone who has major self inflicted problems usually blames society or something else on the given situation.

Whilst Jimmy took an interest I don't think he took Crowley too seriously.

So what if he purchased Boleskine House, I could think of worse places to live than on Loch Ness.

Wonder if Jimmy ever saw Nessie?

[AllisonAdler]

I don't think AC was ever a teenager in the 70s...

However, he was quite an intelligent and extremely well-educated man and Jimmy's interest in him appears to have been/be serious and sustained. I'm not sure why this should bother people. Crowley was not some Satan-worshipping weirdo, he was an occultist. These are absolutely not the same things!

Baby boomer hate that label!

As a teenager in the 70's IMHO Crowley was (and still is), a crackpot who tried to impose his lifestyle and mindless ramblings on any fool who would care to listen.

Apparently he did all right until he shot it all up his arm.

I find it interesting that in later life he blamed his childhood for his predicament and took no responsibility himself.

Then again everyone who has major self inflicted problems usually blames society or something else on the given situation.

Whilst Jimmy took an interest I don't think he took Crowley too seriously.

So what if he purchased Boleskine House, I could think of worse places to live than on Loch Ness.

Wonder if Jimmy ever saw Nessie?

[SunChild]

I don't think AC was ever a teenager in the 70s...

However, he was quite an intelligent and extremely well-educated man and Jimmy's interest in him appears to have been/be serious and sustained. I'm not sure why this should bother people. Crowley was not some Satan-worshipping weirdo, he was an occultist. These are absolutely not the same things!

Agreed. I don't see how a man who died in 1947 could possibly impose his beliefs on anyone in the 1970s.

Not to mention, how does one impose the belief "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law"? His philosophy is the very antithesis of imposition.

[SteveAJones]

I don't see how a man who died in 1947 could possibly impose his beliefs on anyone in the 1970s. Not to mention, how does one impose the belief "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law"?

Through Led Zeppelin of course!

[kakdaddy]

I don't think it was mentioned that Crowley was a teenager in the 70's. I'm pretty sure the point was that he never got over his childhood & became a self important rambling junkie because he never felt paid attention to unless he acted out over the top. No teenager from the 70's could be accussed of that Psychiatry was only on a boom after that. Now if Crowley lived today he could have "hugged it out". Poor bugger.

Crowley wasn't a "Satanist weirdo". Crowley was an Occultist... "crybaby". Now that that's straightened out..

[kakdaddy]

As far as Crowley not trying to impose his beliefs on anyone, come on. He, (like the Pope, Lavey, Mao, G.W.Bush, Bin Laden, Castro, L.Ron Hubbard, your congressman etc...) is a carny who completely tried impose his doctrine on others. Why come up with a published "system of belief" if you are not trying to make it a doctrine for others? Only as a guide? His "beliefs" have been around for thousands of years, nothing new except his name became attatched to it, which only smacks of meglomania.

Crowley was a well read, charasmatic guy with issues & a smack problem who has been romanticised. You may have met him before if you took Theology & Literature classes in College... he's your Professor. Not so romantic now.

[SunChild]

Through Led Zeppelin of course!

Oh shit, and it seems to be working...

[SunChild]

I don't think it was mentioned that Crowley was a teenager in the 70's. I'm pretty sure the point was that he never got over his childhood & became a self important rambling junkie because he never felt paid attention to unless he acted out over the top. No teenager from the 70's could be accussed of that Psychiatry was only on a boom after that. Now if Crowley lived today he could have "hugged it out". Poor bugger.

Crowley wasn't a "Satanist weirdo". Crowley was an Occultist... "crybaby". Now that that's straightened out..

Ok, I did chuckle at the image of spoiled teenagers from the 70's (though they have nothing on the freakin' brats of today!) And LOL at "Occultist crybaby..."

I take your point. I just note that people who became interested in Crowley in the 70's could hardly be said to have his beliefs IMPOSED on them. They chose to pursue them.

Anyway, I can't blame him for not getting over his childhood, I've yet to get over mine. I'd wager that in more ways than you might want to admit, you've yet to get over yours, either. I mean, are we meant to, completely? Wouldn't that be like rejecting who you are? (Psychiatry was a serious study long before the 1970s, it just became more acceptable to the mainstream.)

Childhood is where we learn things that are very difficult to unlearn... Crowley offered a system to attempt to move beyond that, perhaps. To choose to do so is the individual's decision. There is a fine line to walk between self-indulgence and discovering one's true will, which is a serious notion that many people reject out of hand. (Kind of like you seem to be doing.)

I've no doubt it's Jimmy Page's true will to be a guitar player, for example.

As far as Crowley not trying to impose his beliefs on anyone, come on. He, (like the Pope, Lavey, Mao, G.W.Bush, Bin Laden, Castro, L.Ron Hubbard, your congressman etc...) is a carny who completely tried impose his doctrine on others. Why come up with a published "system of belief" if you are not trying to make it a doctrine for others? Only as a guide? His "beliefs" have been around for thousands of years, nothing new except his name became attatched to it, which only smacks of meglomania.

Crowley was a well read, charasmatic guy with issues & a smack problem who has been romanticised. You may have met him before if you took Theology & Literature classes in College... he's your Professor. Not so romantic now.

His system is an amalgam of other influences, but they are genuine mystical and occult influences, some of thousands of years standing, which science is busy confirming all the time. That he studied and picked and chose is just a reflection of "Do What Thou Wilt" as opposed to doing what the Pope or the Guru or the Imam demand of you.

Have you ever read anything by Aliester Crowley? In some ways you might as well say those egotistical attention-seeking physicists are trying to impose the Law of Gravity on us all.

Edited April 6, 2008 by SunChild

[Cactus]

Page strongly believed that a person had to follow their own spiritual journey and that is why he never talked about his practices/beliefs until recently.

[nirvana]

Crowley's True mission was accomplished. He achieved The KCHGA...however late in Life. Was he perfect in is paths?...as an outsider looking in - probably not, the drug thing will break the most determined Will. But, none of us here, on this board, have led or walked the perfect path so judging A.C. is hypocritical.

His Mission was accomplished, let it stand at that.

[Suz]

No, I don't want to let it stand. I want to wonder. Mainly, I want to wonder if I missed out by being the first generation of "Free to be You and Me" kids......with nothing to rebel against. Because I read somewhere that AC had a hardass, fundamentalist upbringing. People like that fascinate me. Repressed people really fuckin' freak out on stuff and create amazing things. Look at Maynard from Tool. Damn, I wanna be pissed off at something, but when I am it's only a mood swing.

How do we know he was totally depressed and lost at the end? Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. Maybe being a worn out old junkie had something beautiful in it that none of us will ever know. I love to wonder.