Pick-ups for Zeppelin tone?

[kev]

I am planning to buy new pick ups for my epi les paul guitar so i was wondering if anyone can suggest anything, mainly for a jimmy tone.

[Cactus]

Get the Jimmy Page modified pickups with push-pull pots etc then.

[kev]

Where can i get those?

[PJD]

The "Page-Bucker" that the Jimmy Page Les Paul comes with aren't available from Gibson without buying the whole guitar.

I've heard you can order the same spec pickup from the Seymour Duncan Custom Shop but I don't know if thats true.

As for a good P.A.F. tone, I've been very, very happy with my Seymour Duncan Antiquity. I've got one of those in the bridge and a neck pickup from my 71 SG in the neck (this is in my 96 Gibson Standard). Get's me into that territory quite nicely.

Bare Knuckle pickups makes an unofficial Jimmy Page model called the Black Dog. It's a vintage PAF style scatter wound pickup that comes stock with 4 conductor wiring for coil tapping/series parrellel. At 9.75K it's hotter than a straight ahead "PAF" replica but that's in line with where the Page-Buckers are reputed to be.

And as the previous poster said, coil tapping pots will give you more of those choices but IMHO it's a real pain in the ass to restrict your pickup search to pickups that come with 4 conductor wires. Torres engineering sells a kit with the corect pots but I can't vouch for the quality. Torres Pagebucker wiring harness

In any case it would definitely be worth changing out the stock Epi pots.

[facetious11]

Check out WB pickups, they make a wide variety of handmade pickups and they just came out with a new one with called the BB customs, in which they say they would "make you beleive you were flying a Zeppelin". Also, at their website http://www.wbpickups.com/, they make custom made pickups where you tell them exactly the sound you want, for about $270 a set, they are great pickups. They are the custom tuned pickups. Good Luck

[kev]

thanks guys

[Stargazer]

http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/ZH-blackdog.html

these are good, a bit hoter than a classic PAF.

[huw]

...mainly for a jimmy tone.

The question is, which "Jimmy tone" do you want? There have been several.

Ignoring the Telecaster or the many guitars he used in the studio, the Les Paul has had it's pickups changed at least once, posibly more than that.

Originally, when JP got the guitar in 1969 it had a standard pair of PAFs giving quite a fat tone. By 1970 he'd removed the cover from the bridge pickup: most people accept this as still the same pickup, although a few have wondered if it was changed then. It's certainally still a PAF tone.

The real change is in 1972 when that pickup died and was replaced with a new Gibson pickup with a chrome cover: known as a T-top this is the pickup that Gibson were making then, and it sounds different to a PAF. The sound is weaker & not as full, although that can make it more versatile. The tone of the middle position (both pickups on) changed at this point, and Jimmy began to utilise it more frequently.

Around 1988 the pickup cover disappeared again - possibly a sign of another pickup change, possibly not. This is also probably when #1 had the push/pull knob installed to increase the switching options.

So you need to pick which years your favourite "Jimmy tone" is from. If it's the early stuff, like RAH '70 then a PAF style pickup will do you. However, if you want a more '73 onwards, TSRTS (movie) tone, then you should consider less powerfull, more articulate pickups.

Whatever you do, there are a few tweaks you can make to your guitar for free that can help tune in on the tone you're after. The simplest of these is to take a small screwdriver & experiment with pickup height, & adjusting the polepieces.

Lowering the pickups produces a weaker signal, which can add some clarity to the tone. The opposite is true when you raise them.

Raising the polepieces (careful not to get the strings caught in them!) will make the tone brighter, lowering makes the tone darker & fatter. It's quite common to see guys lower the neck pickup & raise the polepieces, whilst raising the bridge pickup & lowering its polepieces so that they can achieve a more useable balance between them.

You'd be surprised how much difference you can make by experimenting like this - you might not even need to change the pickups at all.

And, of course, for any kind of Page-tone crank the mids on your amp, reduce the bass & set the overall tone on the bright side. Then use the guitars tone controls to trim the top end as you like it.

Then you'll have a useable range of travel on the tone controls, which is vital for emulating Jimmy.

[LednyrdZepnyrd]

Check out WB pickups, they make a wide variety of handmade pickups and they just came out with a new one with called the BB customs, in which they say they would "make you beleive you were flying a Zeppelin". Also, at their website http://www.wbpickups.com/, they make custom made pickups where you tell them exactly the sound you want, for about $270 a set, they are great pickups. They are the custom tuned pickups. Good Luck

Those WB's ROCK, you should try them

[Evster2012]

As HUW will certainly agree, the Page tone isn't in the pickups. It's in the hands. While a good set of pickups can make a subtle difference, it's about the whole package put together. Marshall Plexis in the early 70s, upgraded with KT88 tubes in 73. In the studio it could've been ANYTHING! Cause he used it all! Pickups are the least of it. You won't find the magic with that. A Les Paul with a decent set of burstbuckers will get you there, IF you play like Jimmy. That's the real trick, cause Jimmy sounds like Jimmy regardless of what he's using. Telecaster, Strat, Les Paul, whatever. It still sounds like Jimmy, and those instruments have radically different sounds. Look at the solo from Hummingbird. It's so Jimmy it's sick! 1973 LP with stock pickups and a little amp, with a b-bender. Nothing special. The gear won't get you there (I know, I was a gear hound for years). It's how you approach the instrument. That's what matters. Just keep playing!

[huw]

As HUW will certainly agree, the Page tone isn't in the pickups. It's in the hands. While a good set of pickups can make a subtle difference, it's about the whole package put together.

Hi Ev - long time no see.

I certainly do agree.

I'd make just a slight addition to what you said "...isn't just in the pickups. It's also in the hands." because I don't think you can take the equipment out of the way entirely.

But you really nailed it here: "...it's about the whole package put together""

Amen, brother, amen...

[Evster2012]

Hi Ev - long time no see.

I certainly do agree.

I'd make just a slight addition to what you said "...isn't just in the pickups. It's also in the hands." because I don't think you can take the equipment out of the way entirely.

But you really nailed it here: "...it's about the whole package put together""

Amen, brother, amen...

Back atcha my friend!

And yes, I agree with your amendment of what I said completely!

Cheers!

[Humbucker]

Why do you want to sound like Jimmy Page? Surely it's better to develop your own sound, which, as pointed out in the replies above, you already naturally have. The world doesn't need another Page: we've got one, already. Be yourself, damn it!

RB

[andrew]

The question is, which "Jimmy tone" do you want? There have been several.

Ignoring the Telecaster or the many guitars he used in the studio, the Les Paul has had it's pickups changed at least once, posibly more than that.

Originally, when JP got the guitar in 1969 it had a standard pair of PAFs giving quite a fat tone. By 1970 he'd removed the cover from the bridge pickup: most people accept this as still the same pickup, although a few have wondered if it was changed then. It's certainally still a PAF tone.

The real change is in 1972 when that pickup died and was replaced with a new Gibson pickup with a chrome cover: known as a T-top this is the pickup that Gibson were making then, and it sounds different to a PAF. The sound is weaker & not as full, although that can make it more versatile. The tone of the middle position (both pickups on) changed at this point, and Jimmy began to utilise it more frequently.

Around 1988 the pickup cover disappeared again - possibly a sign of another pickup change, possibly not. This is also probably when #1 had the push/pull knob installed to increase the switching options.

So you need to pick which years your favourite "Jimmy tone" is from. If it's the early stuff, like RAH '70 then a PAF style pickup will do you. However, if you want a more '73 onwards, TSRTS (movie) tone, then you should consider less powerfull, more articulate pickups.

Whatever you do, there are a few tweaks you can make to your guitar for free that can help tune in on the tone you're after. The simplest of these is to take a small screwdriver & experiment with pickup height, & adjusting the polepieces.

Lowering the pickups produces a weaker signal, which can add some clarity to the tone. The opposite is true when you raise them.

Raising the polepieces (careful not to get the strings caught in them!) will make the tone brighter, lowering makes the tone darker & fatter. It's quite common to see guys lower the neck pickup & raise the polepieces, whilst raising the bridge pickup & lowering its polepieces so that they can achieve a more useable balance between them.

You'd be surprised how much difference you can make by experimenting like this - you might not even need to change the pickups at all.

And, of course, for any kind of Page-tone crank the mids on your amp, reduce the bass & set the overall tone on the bright side. Then use the guitars tone controls to trim the top end as you like it.

Then you'll have a useable range of travel on the tone controls, which is vital for emulating Jimmy.

I'm 95% sure that Page generally plays with his pickups out of phase whenever hes in that middle position. Its an easy and cheap mod, and it sounds pretty good. I actually have a phase switch installed on my guitar and it just opens up a completely new range of sounds that are unlike any that you can get on a stock les paul (including that elusive Page "honk" that you hear in live performances '73 on). I almost never use the middle the setting without it activated, with the setup I have (SD 59 and JB) its usually just too muddy to run both at once in phase.

Heres an example of what I'm talking about

Skip to 4:13 where he plays "The Ocean", and "Houses of the Holy", he has his neck pickup out of phase (and for HOTH, his neck humbucker split as well) and you can hear the nasally, hollow sort of horn-like tone and how it differs from simply playing 2 humbuckers in the middle position (in which the guy plays WLL)

Another example which is a little bitter because the player doesn't have the gain cranked up as high.

Although this is different in that in the PG mod, the pickup is rewired to be magnetically out of phase as opposed to out of phase electronically. This is actually bit more dynamic and tonally pleasing, but also requires butchering your pickup. But yeah, its a cool mod.

[huw]

I'm 95% sure that Page generally plays with his pickups out of phase whenever hes in that middle position.

I go the other way - I'm pretty positive that the classic Page middle position tone is both pickups in phase (ie standard wiring), but with the weaker T-top pickup adding clarity to the sound. It's not just me - I've had some long converstaions on the Les Paul Forum & the overwhelming feeling is that it's in phase.

With a bright amp like Pagey's you can get a clear & hollow sounding twang out of the middle position without doing anything to the standard wiring.

And I don't think that clip is particularly close to "real" Page tone - sorry, I just don't hear it like that.

[andrew]

I go the other way - I'm pretty positive that the classic Page middle position tone is both pickups in phase (ie standard wiring), but with the weaker T-top pickup adding clarity to the sound. It's not just me - I've had some long converstaions on the Les Paul Forum & the overwhelming feeling is that it's in phase.

With a bright amp like Pagey's you can get a clear & hollow sounding twang out of the middle position without doing anything to the standard wiring.

And I don't think that clip is particularly close to "real" Page tone - sorry, I just don't hear it like that.

Maybe we're thinking differently in terms of classic Page middle position tone.

I'm watching TSRTS right now, and what I'm thinking of when I think Page's live tone is the nasally, quack (?) like tone he gets during the main riff of Black Dog or in the first jam section of Dazed and Confused following the chorus or the "funky" section of D+C. To my ears, it definitely doesn't sound like two humbuckers in phase given the amount of treble response (moreso than when he simply plays with both in phase). And I think in the case of Dazed and Confused, its a dead giveaway when he switches to the bridge mid-jam and tone fattens up.

[huw]

Well - looks like we're thinking of the same sounds but calling them differently.

There isn't anything in TSRTS same that I call as definitely OOP mid position. To my ear all those tones can be explained far more simply.

That quack: well, over on the LPF one of the guys did the KT88 power valve mod to a Marshall Super Lead and the first thing I heard in his clips was the quack.

Then there's the wiring of his LP. 1950's LPs had a slightly different circuit in terms of how the volume & tone pots connect, with the result that the interaction of the pots can produce some different effects. One of the most commonly reported effects is that if the volume control is turned down (which Page did frequently) then reducing the tone control initially removes mids , not highs, then begins to roll off the highs as it gets turned down further. Folk have commented on how this can produce effects similar to the ones I've seen Jimmy get on TSRTS, and on bootleg DVDs (most particularly I'm thinking of Earls Court).

Also, there is a reasonable amount of evidence, admittedly some more circumstantial that others, that his #2 LP was modded first, before any mods were done to #1. In particular there is a magazine article from 1982 that suggests that at that time #1 was un-modded (at least electronically) whilst drawing attention to #2's complicated set up. Jimmy's comments on the Gibson guitars DVD given out with the JPP signature guitars would seem to point to #2 being modded before #1.

As he didn't have #2 on the 1973 tour, that suggests that #1 was electronically unmoddified at that time.

I just pulling things off the top of my head here, & probably not making a clear argument. I can ramble...

Anyway, no biggie - you hear it one way, I hear it another.

[Evster2012]

Wow, this is some serious gearhead stuff! Love it!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Number 2 that had the buttons under the pickguard and later Number 1 which received the push-pull pot? That would make sense with HUW's statement about 73, when he had the Cherry Red Paul instead of Number 2. Perhaps Number 2 was away getting its electronic makeover.

[Skweez My Lemon]

Yep #2 is the one with the pickguard switches. However they weren't added until post-Led Zeppelin. Possibly extremely late Led Zeppelin in 1980, really wouldn't matter at that point anyways.

huw, is there any proof that the SRTS era Marshalls were KT88 loaded? I was always under the impression that the KT88 thing didn't take place until sometime after '73. Although I never cared that much for his Marshall tone, I was always intrigued by the mystery around his Marshalls. I've heard everything from him having a extra preamp tube added, to a master volume being placed on the back of the chassis

[huw]

Trying to date the KT88 mod to his amps (or is it amp, singular? no one seems to know how many of them were modded) is tricky. Page doesn't seem to have ever said exactly when it was done so all we can do is use ours ears & make deductions from there.

Personally I'd go with either 73 or 75 - most folk seem happy that it had been done by 75, & listening to various recordings from 73 the sounds can be very similar at times. However, as with a lot of this kind of thing, that's speculation.

BTW - amps are not really my speciality & I'd recomend anyone really interested in that side of the Page sound to join the Les Paul Forum & do some reading there - some really good threads can be dug up by searching. A good place to start is the thread by the guy who has the KT88 modded Marshall, whose username is Albion: search for threads he started & it should come up.

[andrew]

Trying to date the KT88 mod to his amps (or is it amp, singular? no one seems to know how many of them were modded) is tricky. Page doesn't seem to have ever said exactly when it was done so all we can do is use ours ears & make deductions from there.

Personally I'd go with either 73 or 75 - most folk seem happy that it had been done by 75, & listening to various recordings from 73 the sounds can be very similar at times. However, as with a lot of this kind of thing, that's speculation.

BTW - amps are not really my speciality & I'd recomend anyone really interested in that side of the Page sound to join the Les Paul Forum & do some reading there - some really good threads can be dug up by searching. A good place to start is the thread by the guy who has the KT88 modded Marshall, whose username is Albion: search for threads he started & it should come up.

the les paul forum is awesome, I've been browsing it for the last few days.

[moose351]

As HUW will certainly agree, the Page tone isn't in the pickups. It's in the hands. While a good set of pickups can make a subtle difference, it's about the whole package put together. Marshall Plexis in the early 70s, upgraded with KT88 tubes in 73. In the studio it could've been ANYTHING! Cause he used it all! Pickups are the least of it. You won't find the magic with that. A Les Paul with a decent set of burstbuckers will get you there, IF you play like Jimmy. That's the real trick, cause Jimmy sounds like Jimmy regardless of what he's using.

Hi Ev, been a while........ I'd agree about the burstbuckers being a good start. They've got the uneven bobbin winding that the early PAF's had. I can't say that i can fully replicate Jimmy's playing style, but hey..... he's been my biggest influence since i started playing. Anyway, when using the "UK Studio GTR" amp emulator on my BOSS digi desk while using my '02 Paul with burstbuckers, i can achieve that "harmonic" situation in which there's that blend where you can't hear yourself "intruding"..........

I've also heard that the Fender Tone Master is a good amp for producing that 70's tone. Setting the old "twin reverb" aside, fender has made some beautiful tube amps over the years.

Does anyone know if Jimmy was using his #1 at the FooFighters concert or one of the replicas?