The Next President of the USA will be?

[DRUNK]

Then how can the rest of the world be outraged when they chop off a few heads?

What do you mean?

The Muslim world hasn't been outraged when heads were being cut off.

[wanna be drummer]

Methinks he's saying we're supposed to act better them. It's what separates us

[Absolutentonic]

You win, I changed it. Like it?

Looks like Norwood's miss? How many super bowls have your Detroit Lions been to?? I gaurantee you Buffalo finishes ahead of their silly asses. and gets back to the Super Bowl before they do. But, hey, its better than that Neanderthal pic.

[Hermit]

But waterboarding is not really torture. It may be unomfortable or even hightly unpleasant and sacary. But it generally leaves no permanant damage. It only makes people think that they are drowning.

I am all for waterboarding and any kind of psychological tools that may get information.

Actually, Del,.. they ARE drowning.

They're just not drowned to the point of death.

Warerboarding is torture and it is a war crime.

"..when “water treatment” was practiced against our side, it was called a war crime. That was the ruling against the Japanese after the Second World War by the International Military Tribunal for the Far East and by the military courts that tried what were called in the Far East, the “B” and ”C” level war criminals.

When the leaders of Japan were found guilty of multiple and horrific war crimes, one of them was the “water treatment.” Those who actually did the “water treatment” – the officers who directed torture (B level) and those who carried it out (C level) were guilty of war crimes. Some were executed." *source*

--------

"U.S. military leaders knew waterboarding was torture -- when they prosecuted and convicted Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American prisoners of war after World War II, during the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, known as the Tokyo War Crimes Trials" . *source*

--------

"Verschärfte Vernehmung"

"The phrase "Verschärfte Vernehmung" is German for "enhanced interrogation". Other translations include "intensified interrogation" or "sharpened interrogation". It's a phrase that appears to have been concocted in 1937, to describe a form of torture that would leave no marks, and hence save the embarrassment pre-war Nazi officials were experiencing as their wounded torture victims ended up in court. The methods, as you can see above, are indistinguishable from those described as "enhanced interrogation techniques" by the president. As you can see from the Gestapo memo, moreover, the Nazis were adamant that their "enhanced interrogation techniques" would be carefully restricted and controlled, monitored by an elite professional staff, of the kind recommended by Charles Krauthammer, and strictly reserved for certain categories of prisoner. At least, that was the original plan.." *read on..*

--------

So Del,.. you got any other rationalizations to offer

up other than "it leaves no permanent damage"?

[Absolutentonic]

Actually, Del,.. they ARE drowning.

They're just not drowned to the point of death.

Warerboarding is torture and it is a war crime.

"..when “water treatment” was practiced against our side, it was called a war crime. That was the ruling against the Japanese after the Second World War by the International Military Tribunal for the Far East and by the military courts that tried what were called in the Far East, the “B” and ”C” level war criminals.

When the leaders of Japan were found guilty of multiple and horrific war crimes, one of them was the “water treatment.” Those who actually did the “water treatment” – the officers who directed torture (B level) and those who carried it out (C level) were guilty of war crimes. Some were executed." *source*

--------

"U.S. military leaders knew waterboarding was torture -- when they prosecuted and convicted Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American prisoners of war after World War II, during the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, known as the Tokyo War Crimes Trials" . *source*

--------

"Verschärfte Vernehmung"

"The phrase "Verschärfte Vernehmung" is German for "enhanced interrogation". Other translations include "intensified interrogation" or "sharpened interrogation". It's a phrase that appears to have been concocted in 1937, to describe a form of torture that would leave no marks, and hence save the embarrassment pre-war Nazi officials were experiencing as their wounded torture victims ended up in court. The methods, as you can see above, are indistinguishable from those described as "enhanced interrogation techniques" by the president. As you can see from the Gestapo memo, moreover, the Nazis were adamant that their "enhanced interrogation techniques" would be carefully restricted and controlled, monitored by an elite professional staff, of the kind recommended by Charles Krauthammer, and strictly reserved for certain categories of prisoner. At least, that was the original plan.." *read on..*

--------

So Del,.. you got any other rationalizations to offer

up other than "it leaves no permanent damage"?

MCain said it is in an interview. Not to sound stupid, but is waterboarding when they hose you against a wall?

[Del Zeppnile]

Actually, Del,.. they ARE drowning.

They're just not drowned to the point of death.

Warerboarding is torture and it is a war crime.

So Del,.. you got any other rationalizations to offer

up other than "it leaves no permanent damage"?

But still it's just water. It's not like they take a pair of pliers and blow torch to a guy.

I'd rather allow waterboarding than see another American buiding knocked down, or worse.

[Mattmc1973]

Looks like Norwood's miss? How many super bowls have your Detroit Lions been to?? I gaurantee you Buffalo finishes ahead of their silly asses. and gets back to the Super Bowl before they do. But, hey, its better than that Neanderthal pic.

Agreed, Lions are horrible. But the Wings are better than the Sabres, Buffalo doesn't have an NBA team, and Buffalo doesn't have a baseball team. So all in all the equation looks like this:

(Wings+Pistons+Tigers+Lions) > (Bills+Sabres)

But yes, the Lions are a joke.

[Absolutentonic]

Agreed, Lions are horrible. But the Wings are better than the Sabres, Buffalo doesn't have an NBA team, and Buffalo doesn't have a baseball team. So all in all the equation looks like this:

(Wings+Pistons+Tigers+Lions) > (Bills+Sabres)

But yes, the Lions are a joke.

Well maybe you can tell me. What the hell is waterboarding? Is it when you hose someone against a wall like in Rambo?

[Absolutentonic]

Agreed, Lions are horrible. But the Wings are better than the Sabres, Buffalo doesn't have an NBA team, and Buffalo doesn't have a baseball team. So all in all the equation looks like this:

(Wings+Pistons+Tigers+Lions) > (Bills+Sabres)

But yes, the Lions are a joke.

The Red Wings are an original six team in a big market. For the record, I am cheering for them as they are the only ones left that I dont hate.

[Audacity]

Well maybe you can tell me. What the hell is waterboarding? Is it when you hose someone against a wall like in Rambo?

No silly!

[Absolutentonic]

No silly!

Great answer! I should have known. Camel jockeys cant swim. There's no water in the fucking desert.

[Audacity]

Great answer! I should have known. Camel jockeys cant swim. There's no water in the fucking desert.

They don't like Hockey either. No water, no ice.

[Del Zeppnile]

They don't like Hockey either. No water, no ice.

[Audacity]

[Hermit]

Del, Absolute, and Audacity,..

*urban dictionary; see #5*

It's asshat award time.

But still it's just water. It's not like they take a pair of pliers and blow torch to a guy.

I'd rather allow waterboarding than see another American buiding knocked down, or worse.

You condone barbarism (torture) as a means of preventing acts of barbarism.

Brilliant.

So then,.. "it's just water".. so I take it's ok with

you if American POWs are waterboarded,.. eh?

The legal precedent has clearly established that

waterboarding is torture; it is a (war) crime.

In all cases, whether the water cure was applied by Americans, to Americans, or simply reviewed by American courts, it has uniformly been rejected as illegal; often with severely punitive results for the perpetrators.

Japan’s Use of Water Torture Against Allied POWs and the Subsequent Trials of the Japanese

The clearest exposition of the U.S. position on the use of the water treatment as torture is found in cases in which the Japanese armed forces applied it to Allied prisoners of war during World War Two . Japan’s use of the technique was extremely common, and was part of the widespread use of torture as a tool of interrogation. An extensive discussion of the effectiveness of water questioning, and one with which some Americans might be expected to be familiar because of the fame of the victims, was found in the trial of Japanese officers responsible for the torture, trial, and in some cases execution, of crew members of the April, 1942 Doolittle raid on Tokyo.

Water Torture Prosecutions Before Other U.S. Tribunals

The “water cure,” “water torture,” “water boarding;” under whatever name the technique has long been prized by extreme interrogators for its unique combination of severe mental trauma and physical pain with, unlike other methods, a lack of perceivable physical trauma short of autopsy.

In all cases, whether the water cure was applied by Americans, to Americans, or simply reviewed by American courts, it has uniformly been rejected as illegal; often with severely punitive results for the perpetrators.

The United States tried a significant number of Class B and C war criminals before national tribunals. Among them were several conducted at Yokohama, Japan and one in the Philippines which elicited compelling descriptions of water torture from its victims, and which resulted in severe punishment for its perpetrators.

One compelling example is found in the Manilla trial of Sergeant-Major Chinsaku Yuki of the Kempentai for torture and murder of Philippine civilians. There, the Commission heard testimony from Ramon Lavarro, a Filipino lawyer who had been arrested by the Kempentai and questioned by the Defendant on suspicion that he knew of and supported guerilla activities. His testimony was the only direct evidence received by the tribunal about SGM Yuki’s interrogation techniques:

Q: And then did he take you back to your room?

A: When Yuki could not get anything out of me he wanted the interpreter ti place me down below and I was told by Yuki to take off all my clothes so what I did was to take off my clothes as ordered. I was ordered to lay on a bench and Yuki tied my feet, hands and neck to that bench lying with my face upward. After I was tied to the bench Yuki placed some cloth on my face and then with water from the faucet they poured on me until I became unconscious.He repeated that four or five times.

COL KEELEY: You mean he brought water and poured water down your throat?

A: No sir, on my face, until I became unconscious. We were lying that way with some cloth on my face and then Yuki poured water on my face continuously.

COL KEELEY: And you couldn’t breath?

A: No, I could not and so I for a time lost consciousness. I found my consciousness came back again and found Yuki was sitting on my stomach and then I vomited the water from my stomach and the consciousness came back again for me.

Q: Where did the water come out when he sat on your stomach?

A: From my mouth and all openings of my face....and then Yuki would repeat the same treatment and the same procedure to me until I became unconscious again.

Q: How many times did that happen?

A: Around four or five times from two o’clock up to four o’clock in the afternoon.When I was not able to endure his punishment which I received I told a lie to Yuki....I could not really show anything to Yuki because I was really lying just to stop the torture...

When Yuki learned that Lavarro was lying, he was brought back to the Kempentai facility and again subjected to the water cure.

In his summation, the Prosecutor discussed Lavarro’s testimony noting that “...it’s on his testimony that we have to determine whether there was any torture or not.” Apparently, that testimony was sufficient for the Commissioners. They convicted Yuki of the charges that he tortured and murdered a civilian non-combatant, and sentenced him to life imprisonment.

The Texas Water Torture Case

In 1983, the Department of Justice affirmed that the use of water torture techniques was indeed criminal conduct under U.S. law. Sheriff James Parker of San Jacinto County, Texas, was charged, along with three of his deputies, for handcuffing prisoners to chairs, placing towels over their faces, and pouring water on the cloth until they gave what the officers considered to be confessions. The officers were charged with violations of the prisoners’ civil rights. Count One of the Indictment asserted that the defendants conspired to: ...subject prisoners to a suffocating “water torture” ordeal in order to coerce confessions. This generally included the placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning.

The Sheriff and his deputies were all convicted by a jury under Count One, (as well as under other counts alleging constitutional violations for the same conduct), resulting in at least a four year sentence on that Count. The trial included testimony of another former deputy that the Sheriff and the other Defendants “gave [a prisoner] the water treatment: ”A towel was draped over his head. He was pulled back in the chair and water was poured over the towel."

Lee’s conviction was affirmed on appeal, and all the defendants received substantial prison sentences. United States District Judge James DeAnda’s comments at sentencing were telling. He told the former Sheriff that he had allowed law enforcement to “...fall into the hands of a bunch of thugs....The operation down there would embarrass the dictator of a country.” Ex-Sheriff Given Ten Year Sentence, New York Times, 27 October, 1983.

Conclusion

One can only hope Judge DeAnda was right, and that even a dictator would find water torture an embarrassment. Certainly, the United States has made it clear, in its courts, both civil and military, and before the national legislature, that water torture, by whatever name it is known, is indeed torture, that its infliction does indeed justify severe punishment, and that it is unacceptable conduct by a government or its representatives.

*SOURCE*

[Audacity]

Del, Absolute, and Audacity,..

*urban dictionary; see #5*

It's asshat award time.

We three men from Orient are

having fun!

I had to add a little balance to the scenario anyway, apologies to the sensitivities of Absolutentonic though for not adding a representative for his choice in this horse race. I'm glad you were looking out for him. There just wasn't room on the ballot Del offered up.

It is after all a 3-way horse race, that's for sure.

And the winner will be,

[Uncle Bill]

The nobama camp's recent attempts to change the subject away from the Rev Wrong controversy doesn't seem to be working.

INDIANAPOLIS - Hillary Rodham Clinton's name is on the ballot in Indiana and North Carolina tomorrow - but Barack Obama seemed to be running against the Rev. Jeremiah Wright yesterday.

Obama, whose double digit-lead in North Carolina has sagged to a 6- to 8-point edge in recent days, wanted to talk about climbing food prices and Clinton's gas-tax holiday proposal. Instead, Obama found himself on the defensive, spending the first 20 minutes of a sit-down with Tim Russert further distancing himself from his firebrand former pastor. source

Barack Obama's national standing has been significantly damaged by the controversy over his former pastor, a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll finds, raising questions for some voters about the Illinois senator's values, credibility and electability.

In the USA TODAY survey, taken Thursday through Saturday, Clinton leads Obama among Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents by 7 percentage points, the first time in three months she has been ahead. Two weeks ago, before the controversy over comments by Jeremiah Wright reignited, Obama led by 10 points.

The controversy also could be a hurdle if Obama wins the nomination and then tries to draw support from independent and GOP voters in November.

"It will be a continuing problem," predicts Joe Trippi, a strategist for John Edwards' presidential bid who isn't affiliated with one of the current campaigns. "This won't be the last time it's raised." source

[Hermit]

Obama picks up 2 more superdelegates

May 5, 2008: [Maryland] State Democratic Party Chairman Michael Cryor and Vice Chairwoman Lauren Dugas Glover, both superdelegates, are endorsing Illinois Senator Barack Obama this afternoon, sources tell PolitickerMD.com.

*source*

[Del Zeppnile]

Del, Absolute, and Audacity,..

*urban dictionary; see #5*

It's asshat award time.

My photo was merely a white lawn jockey standing next to a camel. There was to Arabic reference at all.

You condone barbarism (torture) as a means of preventing acts of barbarism.

Brilliant.

So then,.. "it's just water".. so I take it's ok with

you if American POWs are waterboarded,.. eh?

The legal precedent has clearly established that

waterboarding is torture; it is a (war) crime.

These interogations are not associated with a "War" as in WW2. And besides, the terrorists are not members of any claimed national military group, and neither are they under any group who are signers of the Geneva Convention. And the fact that THEY reguraly cut peoples heads off and worse, I'm not really concerned about us using waterboarding on them.

[Electrophile]

The Red Wings are an original six team in a big market. For the record, I am cheering for them as they are the only ones left that I dont hate.

Nice to see you back, icantquityoubabebecauseimoverthehillsandfaraway.

[Absolutentonic]

Nice to see you back, icantquityoubabebecauseimoverthehillsandfaraway.

Im sure that was heart felt. lol

XXXXXOOOOO

[Hermit]

These interogations are not associated with a "War" as in WW2. And besides, the terrorists are not members of any claimed national military group, and neither are they under any group who are signers of the Geneva Convention. And the fact that THEY reguraly cut peoples heads off and worse, I'm not really concerned about us using waterboarding on them.

1. Seems you ducked the big question, Delberto. I'll give you another crack at it. 'Since "it's just water".. is it ok with you if US POWs are waterboarded' in the process of our enemies trying to get information that they deem essential for their security and survival? [you know,.. "information deemed essential for our security and survival" being the general criteria you seem to apply in justifying the the use of waterboarding on our enemies].

2. The fact that "THEY" cut off peoples' heads is entirely irrelevant. We are not a "do as our enemy does" society, Del; we're better than that (aren't we?). Our democratic (as in 'democracy-based') principles are rooted in human rights, decency, justice, and due process FOR ALL.. regardless of the heinousness of the crime the accused is alleged to have committed. We are supposedly "promoting democracy" in the middle east, aren't we? How do you think America advocating and implementing waterboarding/torture reflects on democracy.. and on America.. to those to whom we're supposedly "promoting democracy"? It kinda, sorta (gross understatement) undermines our credibility, doesn't it?

3. Yes, "THEY" are in fact associated with a "war".. according to GWB and the US DOJ. GWB, via Alberto Guantanamozales, went to great lengths to have terror suspects classified as "enemy combatants".. so "THEY" could be treated as 'combatants in a war' and thus "THEY" could be tried by military tribunals and wouldn't have to face US courts.. and thus could be denied due process. ..remember?

4. If, as you claim, the interrogations are "not associated with a war", that would mean the accused are "civilians", and any interrogations taking place as part of a criminal justice investigation of a civilian should have to be carried out within the limitations of US (and/or international) law.. meaning the accused should, if being investigated in accordance with US law, be entitled to due process.

So which is it, Del,.. are they "enemy combatants" or are they civilians

accused of having committed (or plotting to commit) a crime(s)?

5. You seem to be in complete denial of the FACT that a number of legal precedents have

already deemed waterboarding to be torture and it has been repeatedly deemed illegal.

[DRUNK]

Hermit, you are just anti Bush, anti war, and flat out anti America, and I am not sure anything will change your mind otherwise.

You have no idea what we are facing.

I condone all torture for the enemy. As I have said before, extreme violence and fear are the only things these maniacs will respond to. It's the only thing they respect. The only thing that may work. If you try to be nice and reasonable with them, you'll be wasting your time, because it won't work.

Waterboarding is a fucking joke to these people.

You are forgetting, they want to go to Paradise.

The people come from a society where violence is the norm. Where people are killed, have limbs chopped off, are executed, have female genital mutilation, rape, beatings etc etc.

You just don't know.

[Absolutentonic]

Hermit, you are just anti Bush, anti war, and flat out anti America, and I am not sure anything will change your mind otherwise.

You have no idea what we are facing.

I condone all torture for the enemy. As I have said before, extreme violence and fear are the only things these maniacs will respond to. It's the only thing they respect. The only thing that may work. If you try to be nice and reasonable with them, you'll be wasting your time, because it won't work.

Waterboarding is a fucking joke to these people.

You are forgetting, they want to go to Paradise.

The people come from a society where violence is the norm. Where people are killed, have limbs chopped off, are executed, have female genital mutilation, rape, beatings etc etc.

You just don't know.

He is probably of the belief that if we act like these animals, we are no better than them in the end. Like the Nazi's. Should we just walk in and take over the world while we are at it? I say we will have our day with Iran and must strike Afghanistan constantly. But we cannot become what they are. While Im here. GO HILLARY

[Electrophile]

So being anti-war = being anti-America? What a crock of horse shit.